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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samuel Brooks
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Brooks_Samuel_20190611.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Brooks_Samuel_20190611 1:57:31 Columbia Oral History MA Program Samuel Brooks Amy Starecheski Brooks_Samuel_20190611 1:|1(11)|23(10)|32(3)|42(9)|52(8)|64(3)|74(12)|83(17)|93(4)|101(8)|111(9)|122(2)|134(9)|144(2)|154(7)|164(10)|176(2)|185(10)|197(12)|210(5)|219(2)|229(2)|239(15)|248(12)|259(2)|270(12)|281(2)|292(7)|301(16)|317(6)|328(15)|340(2)|351(8)|362(14)|374(2)|388(15)|404(8)|417(6)|428(6)|441(8)|453(3)|463(13)|478(9)|491(4)|504(8)|516(6)|527(13)|541(8)|554(7)|566(4)|577(15)|591(8)|602(3)|616(7)|628(14)|640(2)|651(8)|664(9)|677(2)|687(9)|697(12)|716(6)|737(5)|749(5)|761(10)|772(14)|786(13)|797(16)|807(2)|818(3)|828(6)|841(14)|853(10)|878(6)|890(3)|901(7)|918(4)|929(2)|941(13)|954(15)|973(15)|984(14)|997(6)|1010(11)|1025(4)|1036(5)|1049(8)|1063(11)|1075(8)|1086(8)|1099(11)|1111(3)|1122(2)|1133(4)|1142(13)|1154(12)|1171(8)|1182(2)|1194(13)|1207(13)|1218(10)|1230(12)|1243(2)|1257(7)|1268(3)|1280(2)|1295(4)|1306(11)|1316(12)|1328(10)|1342(10)|1356(7)|1372(4)|1383(3)|1395(4)|1406(6)|1425(4) 0 SoundCloud audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/763369384& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Introductions and early years President and founder of the Mott Haven Historic District Association, long time Mott Haven resident. Born in Honduras in 1962. Lived pretty modestly, family owned their own home. Had six brothers, a sister and extended family with him. Parents born in Honduras, but family got to Honduras by way of England and then Grenada, before ending up in the Panama Canal. Grandfather moved the family to Honduras, that's where his mother was born. Sam was 10 or 12 in 1974 when the family relocated from Honduras. His mother had come ahead, left him and siblings behind - one of the oldest brothers were responsible for cooking and the other was responsible for taking care of the younger siblings. Oldest brother was in the military, had arrived in the USA two years prior - was the family's path to the US. Flew to the USA on a 747, growing up had always imagined things about the United States. People always said " ; oh when you guys get there man you could walk up and down the road, you gonna find bicycles, that people just put out, you'll find refrigerators, you'll find shoes and clothing." ; - myths he believed as a child. She the family arrived in the US they went straight to New Orleans and from New Orleans to one of his aunts. Arrived in the South Bronx July 14 1974. 266 Moving to the South Bronx/Hotel in Midtown after the fire Moved to Simpson Street, mother and sister had found the apartment. Sister had come over two years prior, she was the middle child in a family of five brothers. Eight months later, height of the Bronx is Burning, apartment was burned down. Neighborhood kids who would out the candle on the 6th floor of the building would know who was coming in/out of the building - would bang on the door to get people out of the building. Sister was still in the room, she was athletic - couldn't get out because of the smoke and ended up jumping out from the second floor. Red Cross were there and they were relocated to a hotel in Midtown. Very nice hotel, family had a three bedroom suite across from the Empire State building. Would eat in the hotel restaurant, mother had a hot plate in the room. 479 Moving to Mott Haven Moved to 140th between St Anne's and Cypress. Area had problems with heroin, lots of abandoned buildings and addicts. Predominantly Puerto Rican neighbourhood, didn't come across many Dominicans until he went to high school. Spanish accent would change depending on who he was around. A lot of competing drug dealers, poisoning clients - learned the term " ; shooting gallery" ; Recalls one Sunday morning going to church on Southern Boulevard. Left the apartment, heard there were five junkies in the abandoned building next to theirs, dead because their heroin had been cut with rat poison and had collapsed on the pavement. Family just stepped over the bodies and went to church. Spoke Spanish and English growing up. Went to the local elementary school, and then Alexander Berger Junior High School. Loved playing in the projects because they had an elevator. Talks about coming back to the area as a homeowner, people recognize him. Went to South Bronx High School, class of 1981 - the " ; ultimate" ; 751 South Bronx High School Was in the second graduating class of South Bronx High School. Came to the USA with one goal in mind - to get an education. Some of his friends got involved in gangs, drugs, and some of them prison etc. Sam wanted to go to high school, didn't want to join the military, wanted to go to college. Applied to lots of schools because he was financially disadvantaged, but academically advantaged - applied to Fordham University and all the SUNYs. Didn't want to go too far away, but far enough away that he could stay on campus and have that experience. Sister became a registered nurse, older brother also went to college, Bronx Community College, and graduated from Lehman. Other brother also went to another state university, and his other brother worked in the garment district. Last brother was a chemist at Lincoln Hospital. All siblings did ok career wise - didn't " ; go off the deep end" ; . Sam went to Stony Brook - there with the intention of going to medical school. Went to South Bronx High school with famous photographer Joe Canzo, took lots of pictures of Sam as a teenager, kept all the negatives. School had a diverse student body - one white kid in class, mostly black, Puerto Rican and Dominican students. No cell phones, played Atari on TV. 1023 Graduating from South Bronx High School Graduated from South Bronx High School but also got a specialized high school degree from there as well. worked in Lincoln Hospital in the emergency room area - saw a lot of trauma and drug overdose. Went to Stony Brook on scholarship for a six week summer program. Deliberately didn't want to room with anyone who looked like him, wanted someone different. Lived in G Quad. Was a psychology major - got a Bachelor's of Science in psychology and also did the pre-med requirements. Took his MCATS, was advised to do a masters first and he didn't want to. Changed his mind on graduation, opted to get a job on Wall Street in 1986. Graduated and came back to the Bronx. Mother had moved to Harlem. Was there for a little bit before moving to Washington Heights with some college friends for two years before coming back to the Bronx, to Co-Op city. Later made the choice to come back to Mott Haven. Working flipping houses for a colleague at CitGroup. When he graduated from Stony Brook, bought a suit and a copy of the NYT and just looked and saw who was hiring - got a job at PaineWebber. Worked as a registration agent. 1320 Wall Street Worked as a registration agent - would register stock brokers who were moving from one brokerage firm to the other. then from there, went to another another job doing mergers and acquisitions - doing a lot of tracking statistics of companies that were being bought, used to repackage and sell it back to the investment banks. Then there was a downturn in the market. Most of his friends had no idea what he did for a living, topic never came up - people just knew he had a job downtown. Left Wall Street and Citigroup in 1996 and went to Morgan Stanley - doing work in investment research and in investment banking. Lost his job and went to work for the Department of Education as a parent coordinator. was an opportunity for the parents to have an advocate in the school besides the the guidance counselor. Somebody that will listen to the parents and take a parent's concerns to the principal and address whatever the situation was. Newly created position, did that for a year. Then the government came out with the " ; no child left behind" ; program where they were providing stipends for parents to be able to take after school tutoring. Sam was approached by a tuition company, took a job as Director of student enrollment. His job as director consisted of recruiting students to the program. Managed to ge the company to relocated from Boston to Fordham Plaza, cheaper.- moved and brought all their economic benefit to the area. Left that company for a similar one, worked in an office in Midtown and was responsible for the whole operation. Convinced them to move to the South Bronx - to Willis avenue. Sam brought all the staff - hired everyone local. Was with that company until owners decided to sell the company. Went back to Citigroup, has been there ever since. 1748 Property changes in the area Has always been conscious of change in the neighborhood - people are more well-educated. Made the conscious choice to return to the area as a homeowner. Manhattan got prohibitively expensive, people started buying in Harlem until they couldn't afford Harlem anymore, spillover into the south bronx. started noticing newer people coming into the neighborhood and they were coming in as homeowners, buying on the same block on 140 and these were people that lived in Harlem and they didn't want to be left out of this process again. People buying vast parcels of land and flipping them against the rising chorus of discontent displaced people. Sam always engages with the developers, believes in free enterprise. if it's going to be a residential you just bring in the people that can afford that rent and more than likely it's not going to be the people in the same community. Rent is south bronx for a one bedroom is $1500, unheard of ten years ago. Sam has a passion for preservation. many people have moved to other state, the people in the neighborhood know on 139 and 140 are people who have the means to be able to pay the rent. Originally a German, Irish, Eastern Jewish neighborhood in the 1850s - coming back full circle. Sam views himself as an entrepreneur by nature. 2227 The house in Honduras House was was a four family wooden house. Sam's family lived on the second floor, and had the larger part of it and had a tenant on the side and two apartments on the ground floor. Grandfather owned a third of the block, gave it to his three children. The hospital where Sam was born was born called the D'Antoni hospital. Never had the opportunity to meet his father, passed away when his mother was 8 months pregnant with him - he was 36. mother was a very young widow and remained so. the way she survived was she used to lend money. Family weren't rich but owned own property and had a maid that would come in and do laundry. Father died of a blood infection after having teeth removed. Brothers were always very protective of him. Family kept the land, became very valuable 20-25 years ago when people started discovering Honduras. Town became a hub for commerce. When his mother died, they tore down the house and rebuilt it out of concrete. On the very top there's a huge four bedroom, two bath apartment and then downstairs there's two apartments. Decided to sell 10 years ago after violence in the area got really bad - still in the process of trying to sell. Still want to own something in Central America, thinking the island of Roatán - somewhere the kids can go safely and come back without having to go to the mainland. 2561 Family's choice to move to America/ Sam's Mother Family wanted to pursue a better life so moved to USA through education. One of his aunts lived in San Diego, used used to do a lot of sewing. In the 60s she managed to open up a sewing factory. Aunt wanted Sam to come live with her after his father died as she had no children of her own. Mother refused. Mother was very religious, never called her mommy, called her by her first name - Enel. Wasn't typical, family was just a bit different. That was Caribbean life, went to English school there. Family went to Spanish and English speaking school. Family were all anxious to get to the USA. Didn't matter that it was. the South Bronx, could have easily been Brooklyn or Queens. 1061 Intervale Avenue. That's where a lot of the English speaking Hondurans would come and then they would congregate there - they would go to Bathgate on 183rd Street. That was the community. Building they lived in is no longer there, new townhouses. 2948 First impressions of the South Bronx Was 12 when they moved to the neighborhood, area was poor but didn't care. Had to adapt quickly in school because his reading wasn't up to par, failed a lot of classes. Came in at 5th or 6th grade, struggle for the first year. Teachers told his older brother Sam should be in a bilingual class - brother disagreed, felt it would be self-defeating. Family had discipline and respect. By 8pm every night, Sam had to go upstairs and do homework. Had more freedom in Honduras, didn't have locks on the doors there. Was adopted by the neighborhood, the drug dealers knew who you were and would leave the kids alone - knew they weren't runners for other dealers. No one in the family ever had any issues with the law. Didn't have that path. Only once he went to college did he notice class. Other kids had dads who were making $70000, Sam couldn't wrap his head about that. Classmates were curious about him coming from the south bronx, wanted to know what it was like. Why he went to college - to interact with other people. Glad he volunteers in preservation - but he's not going to be seen at pickets. Gives example of Fresh Direct, was a done deal and picketing wasn't going to change that. No different from Columbia University - free enterprise and there's nothing that can be done. 15 years ago his boss used to live in Connecticut. Told Sam to go buy him a house in Mott Haven, sight unseen, buys house in cash on 139th. Daughters lived there when the went to college - thought it was a dump. Sam showed them what his house looked like, showed them the potential. Now they want to live in the area because its trendy. 3693 Real Estate conversations about Mott Haven His company has always ranked highly in real estate, people started talking about Mott Haven 10 or 12 years ago because of the way the market was trending. Headquarters was in Greenwich - in 1996 no one wanted to live in that area. Started to have the same for the South Bronx, started realizing that the Bronx begins where Manhattan ends. During the Harlem Renaissance people were buying townhomes and started realizing that it was becoming prohibitively expensive. Late 80s - no one wanted to buy anything North of 96th street, " ; pioneers" ; who would go ten blocks further up and bring their friends. Real estate people started to realize there was money to be made in Mott Haven. 10 years ago people coming into the area started to change, 5 years ago started to see more developers. Now local, small realtors selling townhouses getting overrun by likes of Corcoran Douglas Elliman. Agents now live in the Bronx. 3958 Pressure to sell Sam's immediate neighbor has lived in the area for 40 years, tells Sam, " ; I get just as much offers as you do but I'm not going anywhere." ; Young man at the end of the block next to the school, father was a Vietnam veteran, died and left house to son. Son was the youngest, 25 years old. Never went anywhere, hung out on the corner. Sam remembers telling him " ; young man, when you speak to your sister just make sure that you do not accept any offers less than say 800,000 dollars." ; . Jewish gentleman would walk around the neighbourhood with a suitcase oaf cash and would knock on doors to see who would sell. Knocks on the kids door, he sells for $450,000. Splits with his sister, buys a BMW. Guy that bought the house flipped it for 720,000, new owners renovated and rented it, could get more than 1 million now. thinks it's inevitable, means people can go live somewhere else less expensive. 4298 Games as a kid Played street games - ring the leader, kick the can, spin the bottle, tag. Doesn't remember most of it. Doesn't remember knowing any obese children - everything they did was so physical. Learned how to do backhand springs onto mattresses in abandoned buildings. Didn't go upstairs and play - that was just for homework and bed. New park very popular with today's children. 4420 Mother's job/death Mother worked as a home attendant for 10 years. Took care of one person until they passed away and she was assigned to another person, never earned more than $14000 a year. When she died she had saved $30,000 for her kids. Bought her burial plot at Moshulu. Died of pulmonary embolism, was slightly overweight. She was feeling pain in her leg - went to Lincoln Hospital and was told her was fire. Went home and suffered a massive heart attack, Sam's brother (the chemist) did CPR and saved her. Ambulance came for her, she had another one and couldn't be saved. Sam knew something had happened when he saw the ambulance. Sam got an attorney, wanted an autopsy - sued Lincoln Hospital. Settled with them for 250,000 for wrongful misdiagnosis. 4596 Growing up in Mott Haven Integrating into the neighborhood as Central Americans was relatively easy as it was Spanish-speaking. Contrasts the discipline he had as a child with that of his neighbors. Comments on church participation. 4742 Firewatching Describes the prevalence of building fires and the practice of " ; firewatching" ; . When a fire was detected, residents would stand on their roof to identify where it is—and later collect scrap metal from the burned-out buildings. Metal came from bath tubs, radiators. 4856 Redlining and real estate Redlining made it difficult for residents to access capital, mortgages and real estate. Speaks of established Black people from the south who were able to purchase property in Harlem. Brooks began flipping houses in the early 2000s with two colleagues. Speaks of the cyclical nature of the housing market and the increasing desirability of Harlem. Speaks of the process of gentrification and its seeming inevitability. 5427 The evolution 140th Street When Brooks moved to 140th Street as a kid, it was predominantly Puerto Ricans and African Americans. The block was quiet ; '70s crime happened on streets north of 140th. Streets just below and above were torn down in the '60s to make way for a school and a park. Describes single-room occupancy buildings. Brooks' home had 18 rooms. In the last 12-13 years prior to the interview, professionals (ex. a doctor, a diplomat) have purchased the homes and conducted major renovations. 5765 Rules, regulations, and displacement Speaks of newcomers' arrogance ; those who are not mindful of existing residents and customs. Speaks of short-term rentals appearing in the garden-level units and how they might be displacing more affordable long-term units. 5964 Weekends on 140th Brooks describes summer weekends on Sundays. A Bronx historical tour group comes through the neighborhood and is on his block by 11:00. Brooks waits for them and gives them a talk on the history and evolution of the block. Introduces the term " ; whiplash block" ; : the block is so beautiful that passersby get whiplash when they see it. Brooks sits on his stoop and people-watches. He notices groups of white visitors walking comfortably through the block, which was not a common occurrence in past decades. Brooks frequents Mott Haven Bar & ; Grill, and describes the increasing number of entertainment and dining options in the neighborhood. 6380 Wife and kids Brooks' youngest and his son have spent most of the lives in the Bronx. Brooks met his wife through his sister, who is friends with his wife's sister. Their children went to Catholic school and then Spellman High School. His son attended Lehman and his daughter, City College. His daughter is waiting to sit the NYPD exam. Their home had " ; good bones" ; but needed renovation. They demolished the entire top floor first. Amy Starecheski: Great. It' ; s so nice to do this. If you need more room you can move that out. It' ; s nice to do this at my house where I can have it all set up. Samuel Brooks: Exactly. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s always a lot of like fussing with the equipment. Okay. So this is Amy Starecheski interviewing Samuel Brooks, President and founder of the Mott Haven Historic District Association, long time Mott Haven resident, for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2018 and we are in my apartment. And so can you start off by telling--say your name and tell me where and when you were born. And then just tell me a bit about your early life, where you grew up, what your family was like. You can go as long as you want, I' ; ll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck. Samuel Brooks: Thank you. I actually was born in Honduras, Central America on September 13, 1962. Lived there, you know pretty modestly--owned our own home. Six brothers and a sister and cousins and extended family so we literally been in Honduras for a while, for decades where my mother and father were actually born. But we got to Honduras by way of England and then we went to Grenada and then we ended up in the Panama Canal. And then my grandfather eventually moved further up to Honduras and that' ; s where my mother was born. And I think I was probably about ten or twelve, I don' ; t remember exactly. But we ultimately ended up relocating the immediate family from Honduras in 1974. Prior to that, two years earlier my mother came ahead and literally left ah five of us in Honduras. So one of my brothers, the older one, one of the oldest was responsible for the cooking. The other one was responsible for taking care of us and imagine me as a 10-year-old, and my mother already in the United States. Our older brother had also gotten here two years prior, so he was in the military. He was in the army, and that uhm facilitated the road for us to be able to all come together. So could you imagine us coming to and flying for such a long time on a 747. So that was that was an experience of course. And while we were kids, we always imagined things about the United States. They always said, " ; Oh when you guys get there man you could walk up and down the road, you gonna find bicycles, that people just put out, you' ; ll find refrigerators, you' ; ll find shoes and clothing." ; So those are the--those where the myths that actually you know we believed you know. I mean we had relatives that had been in the United States in the ' ; 60s and even earlier than that. So anyway, so when it was time for us to come, as I mentioned five of us came together and went straight to New Orleans and from New Orleans one of our aunts--you know her husband I remember at the time had this brand new Cadillac. Oh my God. And you know we would have bell bottom pants and what have you. So it' ; s a little of--the English that we spoke is not the American English. It' ; s not like a West Indian type English, but it was a thick accent and they were waiting for us to open up the huge trunk and they had all kinds of food while were waiting in between flights. Chicken and what have you. So we were in paradise. And then we made our way to the connecting flight a few hours later. And then we arrived to the South Bronx. That was July 14, 1974. And literally we went to 1075 Simpson Street, apartment 8. Believe it or not I still remember that. So it was my sister who--the only girl in the middle of a family of five brothers and one sister--she had also come like two years ahead. And she with my mother went looking for an apartment and found that apartment. So perfect apartment. So we were all living there. And I think probably eight months later. That' ; s the height of the Bronx was burnin' ; . So you can imagine the apartment building they literally burned it down. And the the good thing about it is, well if there is such a silver lining in it, they always, you know we knew the neighborhood kids who would take the forty, fifty, dollars, hundred dollars, and just do it you know put the candle on the sixth floor.They already knew the pattern of the people coming in and out. And it was a six-story tenement building. And they were bang on the door and every--believe it or not because the fires were everywhere, right. On a daily basis, dozens at a time. And the resources for the fire department was in there. But as a child, I just didn' ; t put that together. So they would bang on the doors. Banged on our door, we heard their signal and then you know we all went down. Little did we know that my sister was still in the room. So the good thing is she was athletic so. I think we were on the second or third floor because you know had the fire escape and then you have the gate that comes down and--so she couldn' ; t get back out through the hallway because the smoke was already thick. So what she ended up doing is she made an attempt to come out through the fire escape and then she got to the second floor which just then and she and then jumpin' ; . She didn' ; t injure herself but anything could have happened. And you know the typical scenario, your apartment gets burnt, the Red Cross is there and you get relocated. Well we get relocated. So we went to--the name of the hotel escapes me but I' ; ll have to check with my brother. So we go to Midtown Manhattan. And it was a very nice hotel. I mean this was like a hotel. So imagine in 1974. Nice hotel. We actually had a three-bedroom or a two-bedroom suite. And you know in retrospect thinking about it I mean that was something to be seen! That was a three-bedroom suite in the middle of midtown. And out of one of the windows that three of us were staying in one room. Literally the apartment building was--I mean the Empire State Building was across the street. And we stayed there, would come in the morning and we' ; ll go down to the to the restaurant and eat. My mother had a hot plate in the room and that' ; s how we survived. And then we found an apartment on 140th Street. And that' ; s when I think I was eleven or twelve, got to Mott Haven. So I moved to 140th between. St. Anne' ; s and and Cypress. And you could just imagine that is the mid ' ; 70s you know at the time crack wasn' ; t even invented I don' ; t think--it was primarily heroin. And it was just a whole bunch of abandoned buildings and junkies. Literally. I mean that' ; s that that was the scene and the good thing about us is that it was predominantly Puerto Rican in that area you know I didn' ; t run into Dominicans or anything like that until I went to--you know much older and went to college and high school and I could start seeing. So my Spanish accent will change according to who I was hanging out with. So and it was primarily Puerto Ricans in our building and we had a very good time and it was just drugs I mean it was a lot of a lot of heroin, a lot of competing drug dealers who are poisoning different clients and what have you. That' ; s when I learned the word shooting gallery. Where a lot of these junkies would go in and literally just shoot up dope. I remember one time. When we were going to church on a Sunday morning on Southern Boulevard. So the minute we left the apartment, apparently there were five junkies in the abandoned building next to ours was shooting up dope. And apparently they cut it with rat poison. So and that is that will kill you within a matter of one? Five Minutes? After you shoot up. Two of them dead inside. Two more I guess they at the time and they ran out the building but they collapsed on the sidewalk. So here we are on a Sunday morning. Looked at the bodies like many other thing and just stepped over the bodies and just kept going going to church. And that was the way it was, you know. It wasn' ; t like you had--nothing was shocking. So I spoke the language obviously Spanish and English. So I was you know playing around with these kids and what have you. I went to the local elementary school. I went to Alexander Berger Junior High School. And the interesting thing about that, and I' ; m going to just go forward for a bit. So I was on 140th between St. Ann' ; s and Cypress back in 1975. I came back to 140th between Willis and Brook Avenue almost 18 years ago as a homeowner. So imagine me as a kid running up and down Brook Avenue and into Patterson projects and all these things up and down with some of the kids that--because I was I found the projects fascinating because they had an elevator, right. So they had an elevator, so you say wait a minute and they were relatively new in ' ; 75 still. Not that old, right. And we used to look at these massive towers I had friends that lived in there, some of them kept their apartment pretty cool and you go in on 18th floor or whatever top floor and you could just have amazing view. Again, one of those things as a child you never appreciated. And I ran up and down 140th as a kid and now, like I mentioned I came back 18 years ago, so some of the people that are relatively my age that would go to St. Peter' ; s Church. They started looking at me and says " ; Wait a minute, you kind of look familiar" ; says, " ; Yeah you guys look kinda familiar too" ; and I say, " ; Well you know we went to the same--Berger" ; you know everybody. And we started naming names and teachers and he would say, " ; Yeah you were in my class!" ; Oh! So I said, " ; You were the one that I that that caused me to get kicked out of the school because --" ; it is the funniest stories you know it is just amazing. So he said " ; hey wait a minute--so although you across the street you bought your home 18 years ago, you literally was part of this whole thing even dating back. I said, " ; Well absolutely. That' ; s where I went" ; and then even further than that, I went to South Bronx High School. Which is you know the ultimate. We were the--at the time I think we were the second graduating class. Yes the second, I think I graduated in 1981, I was class of 81 and in class of 80 was a much smaller class. But obviously we saw each other throughout those years. So that was the beginnings of it and you know like any other thing I--I came to the United States with one goal and one goal in mind and that was to get an education right because you come to this country and the way is written you supposed to take advantage of it and stay clean, stay straight, and you know like any other thing right. Some of my friends got involved in gangs, drugs, and some of them prison, some and then just got killed robbing people, join gangs and then what have you. So it' ; s just you know it took some people down and it made some other people stronger. And I' ; ve always knew what I wanted to do. You know. I wanted to go to high school--I' ; m not going into the military, I' ; m going to go to college. And I applied to go to all these schools because I you know I was financially disadvantaged, but academically advantaged. So I was always a pretty decent student. So everywhere I applied from Fordham University to all the SUNYs and what have you so. And then I didn' ; t want to go too far away right. But I wanted to go far away that I could stay on campus and get that sort of experience. And my sister became a registered nurse my older brother also went to college, Bronx Community College, and graduated from Lehman. My other brother also went to another state university the other so we--one of my other brother was a specialist back in the 70s dying buttons. Used to work in the garment industry. He passed away a few years ago and then the other one who passed away, that was about eight years ago. He was a chemist at Lincoln Hospital. So we all fairly you know. Fairly did okay as far as you know career wise or doing something where we didn' ; t go to the deep end and ended up in violence or prison or anything like that which was pretty common. For people in the neighborhood. So I went to Stony Brook University and I was I was there with the intention of going to medical school. So when I was in the South Bronx high school and again you' ; ve probably heard a lot of the same stories you know hip hop was just getting into the fray. One of the famed photographers, Joe Canzo, which was my classmate who you know he just had a camera and he was just taking pictures took lots of pictures of myself as a as a teenager you know in high school and you know he lucked out extremely well. He kept all the negatives and now you know all those years later he' ; s now the source of original content as far as photography. And then you had kids--it was a diverse student body would I mean diverse. We did have one white kid in the class. Her name was Gloria Bernstein. I' ; ll never forget Gloria Bernstein very attractive, and the rest of us was just Black, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. And that' ; s the way we lived you know you get out of school, you find out who' ; s playing music and these were we to call them back in the day, jams. You just go in the schoolyard or wherever, somebody will you know bring speakers in. That' ; s just the way of life, that' ; s what it was. There was no cell phones. Atari was the game that you played on TV or channel 11. I remember Pix used to call in the station and then used to play is the weirdest thing. Now that I' ; m that I' ; m speaking to you just my mind is now coming back full circle. So yeah. So that' ; s what I wanted. I did an internship at Lincoln Hospital my senior year I went to a program at Mount Sinai Hospital for talented individuals who wanted to pursue medicine. So I graduated from South Bronx High School but I also got a specialized high school degree from there as well. And I worked in Lincoln Hospital in the emergency room area. So there I saw a lot of trauma, trauma and drug overdose and that kind of thing. So I say Okay, I think I' ; m set with this thing. Went to Stony Brook went to the summer program there. 100% paid for of course. And did a six-week summer program and then I deliberately did not want to room with any person that looked like me. Meaning that I didn' ; t want another Spanish person, I didn' ; t want another Black person. I wanted something radically different so I remember going to my selection and I said I going to go with this roommate Michael Weiss. So we were there in what they call at the time G Quad. It was--I was the only Black guy on the whole--but that' ; s what I did intentionally you know because I just wanted to get the diversity of just being there and I was there for with them for about two years you know. So I got to get that other half and I would obviously go to parties at night and mix up and everything else, where you living, oh I' ; m living here with these guys and they eventually figured out you know that' ; s what you want to do. You could always hang out with each other but if you don' ; t think beyond your nose then so be it you know. So I did that and I was a psychology major. So I got a Bachelor' ; s of Science in psychology because I also did all the premed requirements. I didn' ; t have, in retrospect--I used to even tutor people that in science but I didn' ; t have sort of like the background, like you have these kids who took advanced placement in high school and what have you but I was smart enough to be able to figure it out, right. And I remember graduating. And I went and I took my medical boards, my MCATS and everything and so my advisor say, " ; Okay you know apply to medical school this that and the other, they got programs you could either consider going getting a master' ; s first and then [unclear] And I said no. And then there was a young lady. Who I was I mean I thought she would never get it and she just didn' ; t get it but she says you know what I' ; m going to move away, I' ; m going to go to Atlanta. Think she ended up going. And I' ; m gonna go get a masters and then just focus and she did and she' ; s a great pediatrician. She is snap (makes snap sound with fingers) you know sometimes it just--I on the other hand, I just changed my mind on graduation. I said you know what. That was 1985, ' ; 86. Right. So I say you know what I think I' ; ll get a job anywhere but I' ; m going to go to Wall Street. So when I graduated I, I graduated obviously I came back to the Bronx. At the time when I graduated my mother had then moved to Harlem. Right. So on 136th street, 130th street. And then I was I was there for a little bit and I says nah I want to move with some of my college friends. So I moved to Washington Heights for about two years. And then I decided you know what let me come back to the Bronx. So after that I end up coming back to Co-op City. I lived there for several years. Then on Pelham Parkway. And then I made a decision to then try to come back to Mott Haven-- still not knowing anything in terms of you know foreseeing any of this. It was just instinctive, you know because at the time, I was I was flipping houses with a friend of mine, colleague of mine where I worked at Citigroup I used to do it for a while. You know we would go in and buy a property, very low, and then sell it to a family not in extreme values and then we used to match them with potential financing. So I did. So when I graduated that Sunday, that Monday I went to Simms. I remember $86 I bought this striped polyester suit. I got a copy of The New York Times and then I just looked and then I see that they were hiring at PaineWebber and I says okay I' ; m going to go in there and get a job. And I literally went in. And I got the job. I was I was what they called at the time a registration--I was a registration agent, meaning I would register stock brokers who were moving from one brokerage firm to the other. And it was regulatory kind of paperwork that needed to be done to be in compliance to be able to now become a broker for PaineWebber. So that' ; s how I got into Wall Street. And then from there I went to another job doing mergers and acquisitions. We were doing a lot of tracking those statistics of companies that were being bought and so we used to repackage it and then we used to sell it back to the investment banks. So I did that for for quite a while actually. And then there was the downturn in the market. Meanwhile, all along most of my friends outside of the ones that I went to school with and the ones that lived that I still used to come and visit in Mott Haven or on 140th had no idea what I did for a living. You know. So I didn' ; t even --we never--the topic never came up. You know I said I got a job downtown. You know and I always kept it that way you know for for different reasons not to show that-- listen I did what I had to do and I' ; m doing it and so on and so forth. Did that the downturn in the market where they were getting rid and downsizing. So I left. I left Wall Street in 19--I was at Citigroup actually the last I was in Citigroup for three years in the ' ; 90s ' ; 93 to ' ; 96. Then I went to Morgan Stanley. I was doing work in investment research and in investment banking. And then the market really took a turn tumble. And then I lost my job and I says okay it' ; s no big deal I' ; m still you know, and then I remember the Department of Education had this new position called parent coordinators where it was an opportunity for the parents to have an advocate in the school besides the guidance counselor. Somebody that will listen to the parents and take a parent' ; s concerns to the principal and address whatever the situation was. So that was that was pretty good. It was a newly created position. I got the job. I says You know what, I like education. So I did that for about a year. And then the government came out with this " ; there' ; s no child left behind" ; program where they were providing stipends for parents to be able to take after school tutoring. So that' ; s the growth in that business started flowing. So you have all of these tutoring companies that saw this as a goldmine and some of them did make incredible amount of money. So one of them approached me and says look we are looking for a director of student enrollment. It was a not-for-profit firm and I said you know what, I' ; m going to work with you guys. So my job as a director was to go within the community here in the Bronx and everywhere in Washington Heights and recruit students to provide--did that with them for a while. And it was another company out of Boston in the same line of business. They wanted to open up an office in New York. Now. The first company that I worked for as a director they were based in Harlem, but their home base was Boston. So I said to them, we' ; re growing quite rapidly. We were in a town--in an historic townhouse on 137th street. Very nice house. I remember at the time it was like amazing wood carving. So they wanted to relocate to a larger space. So I said to them, listen why don' ; t you guys consider coming to the Bronx? To the South Bronx. They said are you kidding me, says nope. As a matter of fact, maybe you guys should come to Fordham Plaza. It was very nice, modern amenities and it' ; s certainly cheaper than you know housing us in different locations. So I convinced them to move and bought with that all that economy to that community. So that was my first economic impact in the South Bronx that I was able to finagle, with all the right reasons of course. That could have been anywhere else, it didn' ; t matter the teachers were local to the schools that they taught. So having a base anywhere, it didn' ; t really matter. So we did that there. And the other company in Boston wanted to open up a division here in New York as well. So they recruited me, I left them and I started working for them. So they had me in an office in midtown Manhattan. So I was responsible for setting up the entire operation. The staffing, the hiring and so on and so forth. I said look, why don' ; t we move to the Bronx? And they say well your call, where do you think we should go? I think we should move to, uhm, Willis Avenue. So literally, we opened up the store on Willis Avenue the iconic building on 149 that that it' ; s sort of like been around, that' ; s where you used to see the el train and what have you. And I bought all the staff, hired everyone local and everyone from the administrators to the program managers they were all local people deliberately that I picked and chose. So that was the kind of thing that that that that I' ; ve always been conscious of doing, right. And then getting back to the neighborhood they always would see me--you know wake up in the morning because I at the time now I was already living on 140th, and I' ; ll go there do what I spent time there and then they decided to sell the company. Again, without a job. So 15 years ago, April actually, I got a call from Citigroup to say that they were looking for someone with a background of what I had of course as a consultant still in investments. So I said you know what I' ; ll go in, what the hell in between jobs. Get there and started work in the same division that I had left you know like 10 years earlier. And a month later, they asked me if I was interested in working full time. And I said sure why not. And I' ; d been back in finance again for the last 15 years. Now I don' ; t know if you' ; re going to ask any questions in between but-- Amy Starecheski: Go ahead, I' ; ll jump in when you' ; re done. Samuel Brooks: It' ; s just a matter as far as the transitional change in the neighborhood. You know. I' ; ve always been conscious of it. Right. But the thing with myself personally, is that I work--I' ; ve been on both sides of the equation right. You know doing the day-by-day job just is a whole different characteristic, it' ; s a whole different personality because it' ; s just by nature of the of the work that I do. I interact with people totally different, if is an African-American and Latino we' ; re all well-educated and what have you and this is what we do. And of course you know I' ; ve been fortunate I could have lived any--not anywhere but I had choices, right. But I always came back to the Bronx and my ultimate choice was to come back as a homeowner. And specifically in a building of the sort that I used to run up and down with. That' ; s how I ended up with what I have now. But I' ; ve I' ; ve actually noticed the neighborhood changes probably about 10 years ago. You know that' ; s when I really started consciously--because everyone was talking about y' ; know gentrification. Everyone was talking about how' ; s it in Manhattan, it' ; s getting prohibitively expensive. Everyone was buying in Harlem and it got to a point that people couldn' ; t afford in Harlem so those are the spillovers that started coming into Mott Haven, because of the proximity to Manhattan. And that' ; s when I started noticing newer people coming into the neighborhood and they were coming in as homeowners, you know buying on the same block on 140 and these were people that lived in Harlem and they didn' ; t want to be left out of this process again. Then going into subways in the morning, I started seeing a diverse group of people. Now this is in the morning--so my assumption is they live here. Then you see them again the next day so it wasn' ; t as though they were visiting. In the evening you come back, and start seeing them I says okay and now it' ; s just growing and growing and then here comes the developers. You know all this land that some of them held for years and it was just the bandit but technically there' ; s no such thing. And it just was waiting for the right time. And then you have people just literally coming in leveraging whatever they had and buying massive parcels and flipping them and selling it among each other and building and then you have the rising chorus of discontent displaced, rightfully so, people who have dedicated themselves to just be a pain in the ass. You know an activist in some respects then go into community meetings, demanding things from the developers and what have you. But I I' ; ll be honest with you I' ; m a logic and reasonin' ; person, I see logic and I see reason and when there is--you know I speak to quite a few of the developers right. And I always engage them. And I always tell them you know it' ; s always there' ; s always great to have the dialogue and don' ; t dictate but it' ; s free enterprise right. You bought a parcel of land. To zone it allows for you to do whatever it is that you' ; re doing. You don' ; t have to interact with any person, right. And if it' ; s going to be a residential you just bring in the people that can afford that rent and more than likely it' ; s not going to be the people in the same community. But it would be great if whenever you start your building, you do have some community engagement. Because it goes well for--and some of them have been doing it. But everybody' ; s walking on sort of like on pins and needles. Rents already, who would have imagined a one bedroom in the South Bronx. Fifteen hundred. I mean that' ; s just like unheard of 10 years ago. You know in the townhouses that we have now, they mean and asking of them over a million dollars has now become standard fare. Who would have thought 15 years ago. Could have gotten those things for 250, 200, 125 depending how lucky you were. And so goes y' ; know so goes it you know. And that' ; s what inspired me to continue this thing with this historic preservation because everybody' ; s talking about new new new. And here I am running against time, because I figured these new people that are coming in with deeper financial resources they' ; re going to come into this neighborhood and they' ; re going to say hmmm all these gorgeous buildings, all this historic district, and there isn' ; t an association that' ; s driving this you know. And that' ; s when I say you know what. Let' ; s just put something together just as a as a pin on the wall. And let' ; s see what happens. So that has increased, it has driven my passion for preservation but not just the physical structures or the buildings. But for the people that look like me who' ; ve been moving into the neighborhood in the 50s you know Puerto Ricans and African-Americans and and what have you because there literally cannot afford the rent. I mean that' ; s just the way it is is. By virtue of the job they have they just it is mathematically it' ; s not possible. And some of them are moved back to Newburgh, others that went to Pennsylvania, the Delawares and that kind of thing. And literally the people that you see for example on 139, 140, Alexander Avenue--these are people that have a lot, not a lot but they have greater means to be able to stay there. So that' ; s that that journey that personal journey that has turned into a passion for me personally. And just speaking to not for people and even the newer people that come and says look you just can' ; t sit on your stoop and pull out a bottle of wine and not say hello to a guy that' ; s across the street who' ; s been living there for 65 years in that single room tenement because that' ; s the same guy who if you do park your car or bicycle or somebody is trying to do something in your home--he' ; s the guy who gonna say hey, don' ; t leave that alone because that belongs to you know. Or when you have an Amazon delivery and they leave it there you know. And that' ; s why I always call it the power of anonymity--you don' ; t know who' ; s who. But if you decide to wake up here every single day, it behooves you to literally interact with your neighbors. Don' ; t tell me you bought a beautiful townhouse on Alexander Avenue, you restored it to its period and you' ; re having a fabulous dinner parties whatever you want to call it and inviting all your friends from downtown and then you telling them, " ; Hey don' ; t worry, the next one comes up I' ; ll let you know you could be buying" ; . ou know and they' ; ve been doing that of course but you know speak to the people you know. Say hello to the people you know. I mean. Blacks and Puerto Ricans started coming to Mott Haven in the ' ; 50s you know. So you had originally the Irish that were coming here in 1850s. You had the Irish, the Germans, Eastern Jews--Eastern European Jews. So they were here before we actually got to this part of the Bronx. Right. So it' ; s almost like a full circle so that if you see them you know it' ; s sort of like let' ; s just have that interaction and that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing for the last couple of years more focus on the community. Not from an advocating, in a protesting way in terms of things that are coming into the neighborhood because I you know I' ; m an entrepreneur by nature. You know but that' ; s just me so. Amy Starecheski: I have so many questions. This is fantastic, thank you for sharing all that. I' ; m going to start by going all the way back. Samuel Brooks: Yeah sure. Amy Starecheski: Ehm, you said your family had a house--can you tell me about that house? Samuel Brooks: Actually yeah. It was. It was a four-family wooden house. We lived on the second floor, and had the larger part of it and we had a tenant on the side and then we had two apartments on the bottom. That part of Honduras where we actually owned that piece of land my uncle owned the other piece, so my grandfather owned pretty much like about a third of the block. And he gave it to different siblings you know my mother and my uncle and my aunt, and so on and so forth. But the way we ended up with that property there and that is the central part of the town of [unclear] Honduras. There was a hospital where I was born called the D' ; Antoni hospital where it was on the golf course. So we originally owned some of that property. So they wanted to build a hospital in that area. So then they agreed and I guess my grandparents and everything say well we' ; ll take this section here because it' ; s only eight minute ten minute walk. And that' ; s how we ended up there. So we were always you know we were always my mother--my father passed away when my mother was eight months pregnant with me. So I never had the opportunity to meet my father, so all my brothers became my father. I think my father died he was like thirty-six years old. So my mother was a very young widow and remained so. So the way she survived was she used to lend money you know exchange money--she' ; s always used to go to the standard food company because these workers during the week weekends had spend all their money and they need to borrow money so she used to be and people used to come to the house and they used to borrow money. So that' ; s what she used to--she used to do that, that' ; s how she survived. And we' ; ve had aunts that that lived in the US that came back to Honduras. People in the islands. So [unclear] we had family. So it wasn' ; t like I was walking barefoot in Central America wondering you know what' ; s going to become of me. We weren' ; t rich, obviously, but we owned our own property and we had you know a maid that would come in and you know do our laundry that kind of thing. So it was pretty good. Amy Starecheski: How did your father die? Samuel Brooks: You know that' ; s a very good question. I think he had some teeth that were taken out and I think he was drinking at the time and he caught some sort of a blood infection. And you know back then what penicillin couldn' ; t cure or whatever basic cure didn' ; t apply to him. Or it didn' ; t have it at the time or what have you. And he just died. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I saw. Pictures of you know procession how they used to do in the real traditional you know with a horse and you know music and you know you see my mother and. My other brothers and you see my mother pregnant that was me is just like wow. It' ; s. Pretty cool. To say the least you know. So. Yeah that. That was that part of that story and because I never had any sense you know I was a child so and my brothers were always overprotective of me because I was the last one who made it who was lucky to say the least. Amy Starecheski: Did your family keep that land in Honduras? Samuel Brooks: As a matter of fact. The way the way the land is pretty valuable in a sense because everyone started discovering Honduras 20 years ago, 25 years ago. And then there' ; s a lot of commerce in that particular town because it' ; s the it' ; s the more popular one and then you have the islands of Roatán where a lot of Americans started going there and buying property and what have you. So yes, we still have it as a matter of fact. When my mother passed away about 20 something years ago. We tore down the house and we rebuilt it out of concrete. So on the very top there' ; s a huge four bedroom, two bath kind of a thing and then downstairs we got two apartments. But now what you' ; ve been reading in the papers, the last 10 years or so the level of violence, gangs and what have you there literally--so I told my siblings I said look I think it' ; s time for us to pull out of that part of--where we had lived all our decades in our lives. And let' ; s sell. So we' ; re in the process now of trying to get rid of that property. But I said at the same time we still should own something in Central America so we' ; re considering going into the island of Roatán and sort of buy like I don' ; t like like a one bedroom in one of those resorts kind of a thing that will allow for our kids to go safely there and come back without having to go to the mainland and deal with all of that foolishness because I want nothing to do with that. So we' ; re in the process of doing that. Amy Starecheski: Do you know why--it sounds like your family had like a relatively stable situation, do you know why they came here? Samuel Brooks: Well, I mean it' ; s like any other thing right. Everyone that we would meet that has been to the United States is something that we wanted to do. I mean our intent to come here was to just pursue a better life, if there is such a thing. And by virtue of education, it was an opportunity. We had one of our aunts one of my mother' ; s sisters who was in San Diego at the time. She used to. She used to do a lot of sewing. In the ' ; 60s she managed to open up a factory, a sewing factory. So when my father died when I was a child about two years old. My aunt that was living in, I think in San Diego at the time, was doing very well. Wanted--told my mother to his sister why don' ; t you give me him, me, give me to her. And then because you already have five, I have none. And you know I' ; ll take care of him, I' ; ll raise him like my own. I mean I' ; ll tell him that you' ; re his mother, but he' ; ll come right away to the United States. That would have been here at the age of about two or three years old. And of course, my mother said no. She refused, said she could manage. And I' ; ll take my chances with him! (laughs) Amy Starecheski: What was your mum like? What kind of person was she? Samuel Brooks: She was she was she was very you know she was a religious person, very you know, very friendly of course. Thing about our mother we never called her mommy or you know. We used to call her by her name. Her name was Enel, Enel [phonetic] and I grew up calling her by her name. You know. [unclear] Latino. Like that was her legal name that was, that was her name. So we never called you know we never called her by anything other than her name. So it was that kind of a relationship that. That we had. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m just going to close the window, there seems to be a bit of a siren situation out there. Why you called--was that typical? Like why? Samuel Brooks: Ahhhh. No it wasn' ; t typical of the time. It wasn' ; t typical. I mean that' ; s what everybody called her. You know and remember we were relatively young. You know back then. I mean our father by then you know that was 50-57 years ago. Right. So my oldest brother is 68. Right. Ten years. Yeah. So imagine that you know. So he was still relatively young. So yeah we just call--it wasn' ; t a tradition, it wasn' ; t something that we English speaking people from Honduras would typically call you know everybody else was calling their mother you know mommy you know not even my mom. Mommy, the Spanish version of it. And that' ; s just the way it was. But we just were a bit different in that regard. I used to just call her by her name. You know. Dona Ines. Antino and that' ; s what--we used to come to the house and used to say Dona Ines and that was her name, Antino [phonetic]. And that' ; s what I grew up I never called her mother, none of us did. You know. I mean we knew that was our mother, but this it' ; s weird it' ; s weird dynamic. And again, that was that was Caribbean life. You know. We went to school there, we went to English school there as well. So again, we had the opportunity where we went to the local Spanish school. But then again, we had the resources because we spoke English and everybody else either spoke just Spanish or the Garifuna people that came by way of St. Vincent and that relocated to Honduras all they spoke was their language you know. And I --we spoke both English and Spanish. So we went to Spanish school and went to English school. And that' ; s the way we were rolling back then. Amy Starecheski: So when you, when you came here you know, coming here for opportunity for a better life and then coming to the South Bronx in the 1970s--what did you think? Samuel Brooks: I mean I was I mean we were all anxious to get to the United States. I mean that' ; s just it didn' ; t matter. I had no--I mean it could have easily have been, we could have landed and lived in Brooklyn or Queens. The Bronx is just where we ended up. We did have some people that that came years earlier before we got here in the ' ; 60s, used to go to Intervale Avenue. 1061 Intervale Avenue. That' ; s where a lot of the English-speaking Hondurans would come and then they would congregate there--they would go to Bathgate on 183rd Street. Ah so there was that little community so our proximity was on Simpson Street. Which wasn' ; t far from Intervale. Which wasn' ; t too far from Bathgate. So that' ; s where it was always that part of where the Honduran people would come in. So my sister actually looked in the papers and found that apartment, told my mother I think the price is right, I think it was like 200 and something dollars some amazing number for like a three or four bedroom apartment. Go figure. How about that. The building is no longer there of course. They built private homes, private--those townhouse looking kind of a thing. They demolished the building and that abandonment and all that foolishness. So but yeah I know it wouldn' ; t have--it didn' ; t matter where. We knew we were getting on a plane. We had a passport and we had a green card. So we were we were set to go at any time and we just waited and then my brother said okay, the consulate said we' ; re ready to go. And we all came at the same time. So imagine that, the Brook' ; s leaving at the same time you know, so that would have been a sight to see. And it was cool, it was pretty good. Pretty good. Amy Starecheski: Can you remember anything more of your first impressions of the Bronx as a--you said like an 11-- Samuel Brooks: Yeah well yeah about 12. You know then again I was more I didn' ; t I didn' ; t understand that we moved into a neighborhood that was very very poor. I mean y' ; know it was just that. I mean as a 12 year kid, listen I came from Central America, so I' ; m not--I didn' ; t come from Darien, Connecticut and says oh my God what is this. You know I' ; m living here, on Simpson Street with all the sirens and all the police sirens and all the you know the drugs and all that. To me you know I just said I' ; m in the United States. And I enrolled in school obviously right away. I--my diction and what have you wasn' ; t like the way the American folks or the people who were living here. You know so I had to adapt quickly because my reading wasn' ; t to par, I fail a lot of the classes because I just didn' ; t put one and one together at that level. You know I didn' ; t go to kindergarten, I didn' ; t got to first second and what have you. I came in I think at fifth grade or sixth grade. I don' ; t know what the what the number would have been. And that was just it. It was a struggle for me probably the first year. Teachers told my older brother I think it' ; s best if you put him in bilingual. And he said no, why would I do that, that' ; s going to be self-defeating. You know he needs to go through this process and sure enough the following year. I mean I was an A student in every sense and didn' ; t turn back. So that' ; s just the way we were. You know we came with a level of discipline. And we had respect. Which was different in these kids who would stay out all night, hanging out in the street. By 8:00 or something I had to go upstairs, I had to do homework. And my other three brothers that were ahead of me you know that' ; s what we did. You know we came from a totally different place completely where we had more freedom and everything else. And it was just no locks on the door, I never saw a key in my life. I literally--we didn' ; t even have a lock on our door in Honduras. Here obviously you need it, even though it was still in the ' ; 70s you know. You know I--just the most remarkable thing you know and there I understood back then it was tranquil Honduras then obviously as I started getting older and I started going wait a minute, this place is truly a dangerous place--if they don' ; t know who you are you know. But you grew up in a neighborhood. So therefore you' ; ve been adopted by the neighborhood and the drug dealers knew who you were and they would say it' ; s okay, leave those alone. These three guys that are there going to school you see they don' ; t hang out here late at night. They' ; re not runners. They don' ; t work for any of us. Leave those you know like me and my two other brothers--you know these guys doing what they have to do. And that' ; s the way we kept it. You know not a single one of us had any issues with the law. None of us were ever arrested and we just did what we had to do. Even my older brother at the time they were probably 17. 18. You know. High school age kind of a thing, and we survive you know. Thank God. To say the least you know but yeah. So when I got here in ' ; 75 to me it didn' ; t, it didn' ; t impact me. I was more excited the fact that I got on a plane, I' ; m in the United States. I see pretty cars, I see people with bicycles, I hear ice cream trucks and we were good. You know the local bodega. We used to have change, go there buy candy, what have you and just had access to a lot of things. Things that were considered an amount--anomaly in Honduras at the time was as a twelve-year-old it just didn' ; t happen you know. You know clothes that were fancy clothes to say the least so it wasn' ; t like I was born on Brooke Avenue and so in all that turbulence and I dropped out of high school and I decided to go into the military or I had to go away because I was hanging in the streets. We didn' ; t have that path. You know even though we were mixed with people who had that path who were very good friends of ours. You know I had very good classmates of mines who lived in the projects. You know all of them surrounded projects. So we were all one big family--I just happened to just live in a six story building. And that' ; s just the way it was. You know I would see them in school, those who used to come when they could. But that' ; s just the way it was. So it didn' ; t impact me in that regard. I went to high school again stayed within throwing distance from where I was all this time. And only when I started going to college then I say wait a minute it' ; s a class--it' ; s a two class structure here. You know there are people that are being dropped off in cars. You know I had to take the long island railroad and my suitcase. You know you know kids telling me oh my dad makes seventy thousand--remember Michael Weiss' ; , father was an insurance salesperson. He said, " ; Yeah my dad makes, he does a--makes like seventy thousand dollars a year." ; I couldn' ; t even wrap that around my head that. And I says, Wow. But they also were curious about me because at the time they knew, Wait a minute you came from the South Bronx--so tell me what it' ; s like, what about the buildings and the burning and all that kind of stuff. So I had my own assets, right that they found it curious you know. Like I told you I interacted because my purpose of going to college was to exactly do that. You know not just to stay on the African-American side or the Latino side and I ventured across the street because it would have been a been a self-defeating mission so to speak which allowed me even now I navigating both worlds. And I said to you earlier, most people have no idea what I do for a living. The people that I consider my friends--other than colleagues of course--I' ; m talking about people in this community. Yeah, I just work downtown. That' ; s what I tell them because I think. What I do with the tours or what I do with the preservation is a job, it' ; s a volunteer it' ; s not you know--it' ; s just keeping an eye on where I' ; m living. I just for me financially obviously because I have a major investment but just if I can just raise my hand and just say something about some injustice you know I will do it. But I' ; m not the one that you' ; re going to see picketing Fresh Direct or you know because I am too logical you know a perfect example. That deal was already a done deal, right. And I remember telling this to some of the people who would picket it and what have you and says you guys realize that that is that the tax abatement--that' ; s a done deal, it' ; s not going to be reversed. It' ; s not--you cannot go to the community but you cannot now. But I think you have an opportunity to say okay it' ; s a done deal, our concern was the high level of asthma--and I suffer from asthma as well--is so devastating that can we come to some sort of arrangement where--and I told them, you guys could have probably gotten a half a million to a million dollars or even more from First Direct if they would have set up some sort of an asthma test in local facilities within the community, sensors to measure. But at the end of the day, you got nothing out of it. You got a little press at the very beginning but Fresh Direct is not a human being it' ; s like Columbia University acquiring property all throughout Washington Heights and what have you. That' ; s the there is no such. There is no such person that' ; s 68 years old named Columbia. Right. it just doesn' ; t exist. We both will all be gone. You know that' ; s just the way it is. You know. So that' ; s the kind of thing that you know I say, you could have gotten something out of a bad situation you had them--and I remember speaking to Fresh Direct and I says look I mean you guys are getting hit up in the media and all that stuff. It' ; s a lot of attention, a lot of press, a lot of things that you see on the wall and what have you. They say Yeah it' ; s sad but they come with--you know too bad you' ; re not part of that organization or the organization, but if they would have said to us this is what we want, we were ready to give them any and everything they wanted. Maybe they made an offer and they said no no we don' ; t want it. That' ; s why I--you know same thing with the developers. They keep talking about Keith Rubinstein. You know he came bought this parcel of land, fifty something million, was going to build six towers. Brookfield came in, made him a better offer, flipped it and he was eviscerated for having--the party, talked about the [unclear], a whole bunch of things. And he always he said Sam, just as long as you don' ; t respond to any of that because eventually there is nothing--this is a free enterprise there' ; s nothing that can be done. They' ; re not threatening my life. Right. You know I just bought something that was there and this is what I' ; m doing. All these warehouses in the back here. I mean people that own those warehouses were not black or Hispanics. You know these were people who bought these things in the ' ; 60s and ' ; 70s--all those factories that are back there now, those things are flipping for multiples of millions of dollars you know exotic lofts and everything else. Everyone in my office they know more about Mott Haven than I do. You know they say well we buyin' ; sites un seen. I remember, 15 years ago. My boss used to live in Connecticut, Greenwich Connecticut. Old Greenwich Connecticut in a multimillion-dollar home. He says so Sam tell me about Mott Haven. I said, Well you know I bought there just the other day you know that like three years ago. He said really. I yeah, no, I think. And I say well do you want to buy a house there. And he says yeah just find me one and I' ; ll just buy it. I said Joe, but you haven' ; t seen the house and we call this sight unseen. If you' ; re living there why not. And sure enough I say okay we' ; ll find your house. Found them a townhouse on 139. So the story goes he buys the house he buys it cash--his two daughters at the time he wanted them to see the house because potentially I don' ; t know when they get older they go to college in NYU or Columbia or whatever. Those girls walked in there and said, Oh my god what the hell is this dump. And at the time he was I think going through a divorce and he looked at me and says wow, what do you think you can do. I said you know what, I got a solution. So when I was doing work in my house I photographed everything. So I come with this book right. And I says oh you think that house look bad in the inside, this is what mine looked like and now this is what it looks like now. So they look and say okay, I can see the potential. So make a long story short, in probably a 10 year period, the daughters went to high school graduated college and one of the daughters now is coming back to the South Bronx. She' ; s going to be teaching, starting this summer at one of the charter schools I think on Willis Avenue or somewhere. And where do you think she wants to live. She' ; s moving in there and the last top floor because it' ; s trendy and it' ; s like wow and she sees what no other place--so just a funny story to see this whole full circle and the other daughter who is in theater says oh no I' ; m coming back. And that' ; s where I want to live. You know. Yeah. Connecticut we live well and you know what have you, but that was just that. But this is where you know young artists, and she' ; s artists obviously she' ; s in theater, live you know well-educated young women and you know it' ; s the weirdest thing. Full circle. Amy Starecheski: Yeah, you said maybe it was like 10 years ago that you started to notice significant changes. Samuel Brooks: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: At what--at what point did people in your office start knowing, start talking about Mott Haven? Because that' ; s a different level of-- Samuel Brooks: Well yeah but the thing is right so we we cover publicly traded companies in all industries and and real estate is one of our leading industries that we' ; ve always ranked number one and the team I know them well and we know each other well we go back a year. So this is what they do. They do that for for a living as far as you know coverage so they know what' ; s happened in terms of commercial and residential. They foresee markets and what have you. And you know when they mention things in--can I just take a break? My sister called me. Amy Starecheski: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. It' ; s nice that you' ; re still close with your siblings Samuel Brooks: Yeah, what was the question? Amy Starecheski: I was asking like at what point-- Samuel Brooks: People in my office-- Amy Starecheski: Yeah like at what point did people in your office start saying we' ; ll buy anything in Mott Haven. Samuel Brooks: Yeah I think it was about yeah about 10, 12 years ago when they started realizing the trends because the way we follow the market right. We knew, for example, Tribeca--our headquarters is at 388 Greenwich right. Back in ' ; 80, not ' ; 80-something--back in ' ; 96, nobody wanted to live in that area. Just think about, you used to see a lot of rats running up and down alleyways. But it was again the De Niro' ; s, Robert De Niro' ; s grandfather was acquiring a lot of that, those properties the Pontes were acquiring a lot. But you know that' ; s just the way nature operates. Right. So with regards to the South Bronx they started realizing that the Bronx the Bronx literally begins where Manhattan ends. Right. Technically as far as the southern part of the Bronx. So during that time of the Harlem Renaissance where people were buying townhomes 15 years ago, 18 years ago and they just started realizing that eventually it started becoming prohibitively expensive. It' ; s like back in the--back in the late ' ; 80s nobody wanted to buy anything North of 96th street, that was the red line. You do not go up north of 96th Street on Broadway or Amsterdam or Riverdale--Riverside you just don' ; t do it. Then you had pioneers that would go 10 blocks further up, bring their friends and eventually that' ; s just the way the ball has rolled. So with regards to Mott Haven from a projected point of view, the people in finance always had this this thing about neighborhoods. You know because they track them, you know they knew what was going on. And so on and so forth. So some of them started getting into the market. As far as the real estate in the South Bronx. As far back as 12, 13 years ago whenever it is that they started saying wait a minute there is some money to be made here and there' ; s hold for a while and sure enough you know the changes that are happening now is just at a rapid pace. So ten years ago I began to notice the difference in terms of the people that were coming into the neighborhood and then the accelerated process 7, 5 years ago with the developers now coming in and at the time there wasn' ; t any marquee real estate company. There was nothing. Now you have the local, small realtor that was selling townhouses to this to that getting overrun by the likes of Corcoran Douglas Elliman and they just here now. I mean that' ; s just the way it is. I mean I don' ; t see a physical office but it' ; s across the street in Harlem. But they' ; re here, the agents live in the Bronx. And some of them just moved in and that' ; s what they' ; re doing and they' ; re doing--they' ; re flipping these things. And they' ; re getting buyers, they' ; re knocking the doors in. And that' ; s just the way it goes. I mean the person that I met--you probably already know this, is friends with Carol as well. 280. I mean they bought two of them at the same time from the sisters from the Dominican sisters--two of them at the same time. Go figure. Amy Starecheski: I have other questions in the middle but since we' ; re talking about it, can you tell me about the kinds of experiences that other homeowners on your block or in the area are having now with--you know you were telling me stuff about people getting offers, being pressured to sell or having opportunities to sell like-- Samuel Brooks: Yeah I mean there' ; s--my immediate neighbors she' ; s been there for probably like 40 years, 50 years you know her ex-husband owns another townhouse on 139. Her mother owns a nice house on Alexander Avenue. So they' ; ve been in the neighborhood for decades. And she tells me all the time you know Sam I get just as much offers as you do but I' ; m not going anywhere. There was a young man at the end of the block next to the school where--I think I may have mentioned this to you--where his father, he was young, his father was a Vietnam veteran died like, probably like 8 years ago and left the house to his son. He was the youngest. I guess he had him when he was in his ' ; 60s left the house to him and his sister. He was like 25 years, 24 years old kid that never went anywhere, hung out in the street with the guys at the corner. And I remember clearly telling him says young man, when you speak to your sister just make sure that you do not accept any offers less than say 800,000 dollars. This was a couple of years ago. So there' ; s this gentleman that used to walk the neighborhood with a suitcase with cash and his Jewish kid with a suitcase full of cash and he would see opportunities or knock on doors, he would literally just knock on doors " ; Hey my name is A.J.. Are you willing to sell your house." ; It worked for some. In his case, he was always in need of money for taxes and what have you, so this guy began to build that relationship with him before you know it. House was sold for four hundred and fifty dollars, four hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Kid takes the money, splits whatever he has to with his sister, buys a BMW. Hanging out with those guys before you know it, he no longer has the BMW. That person that bought the house for 450, flipped it. He already had a buyer. Flipped it for 720. Didn' ; t do a thing to the house. I don' ; t even think he painted inside. Flipped it. Okay. And the young couple that bought it I think they' ; re Koreans or, yeah I think either Koreans or Chinese. They wanted to flip it without even doing anything to it. They wanted to get it for like nine--they wanted the same equivalent, like 920. The offers they were getting were into the high eights already, so they already got it for 720. They say you know what, we gonna renovate and then rent it out and hold it for you know three four years and then really go north of one. They just finished the renovation. And I think now they' ; re going to now--given what one of our neighbors just sold on 139, they' ; ll definitely get more than that. The other house on 140th, the buyer tracked down the owner who was living in Puerto Rico, went to Puerto Rico, bought the house from her for seven--for 120, came, flipped it for four, from four--it is just like that' ; s the kind of game that some of these guys that are in the market of finding distressed properties having the ability to locate the owners. And that' ; s that' ; s just that' ; s the competitive market now. The person who just closed yesterday didn' ; t even use a broker to sell the house went on Street Easy. Took some pictures. Put it up. Paid six hundred dollars to have a premium placed, open house, 10 people came, three offers were made--first person that walked in and said I' ; ll take it. And you know but that' ; s that' ; s it' ; s inevitable. I mean that' ; s what happens. You know that' ; s what happens. I mean simple as that. That' ; s what happens. So. It' ; s not. It' ; s it. But like I said I hope they can hold out for those who still have because most of the homes on 140th in particular and even the older ones on Alexander there' ; s no mortgage on these homes and they haven' ; t been upgraded in terms of the mechanics of the homes and things of that nature but they just they' ; re getting old you know. And it' ; s inevitable that something is going to happen you know. But hopefully if they want to live out a couple of years you know, having choices to go out to dinner and travel and everything else and maybe move back somewhere else where it' ; s less expensive and take it given how much years you have to have to live or something to that effect. You know because I' ; m not the person, I' ; m not going to stay the past 10 years. You know you just let it become somebody else' ; s dream. You know that' ; s just the way I see it I don' ; t. And I have no problem with it. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: To go back for a minute--when you were a kid here, like what kind of games did you play? Samuel Brooks: It was all street games--ring the leader, kick the can, spin the bottle. You know tag. It was all--actually matter of fact, I don' ; t remember most of--I don' ; t even remember knowing any kid that was obese. That got 12-year-old a 13 year old a 14 year old. I don' ; t remember. Because everything we did was so physical. You know when I learned how to do backhand springs it' ; s like you know abandoned buildings, take the mattress, everybody was doing--every abandoned building had mattresses, you stack ' ; em up and that' ; s what you learn to do. Your acrobatics. So if you look at some of the older pictures you say wait a minute. If you just notice that little nuance, because we were always movin' ; . Right. Or like now with all the sugary sodas and what have you it' ; s just like kills you. You know it' ; s like the way your daughter and the daughter' ; s friend is always on the monkey bars and all of that. That' ; s the kind of thing we did. It was all physical street games that' ; s all we had. It was nothing to stay upstairs and play with when you go upstairs--it' ; s just homework and bed. And that was nothing else. Amy Starecheski: You wish it was monkey bars--it' ; s just scaffolding they' ; re playing on! Samuel Brooks: Yeah (laughs). That' ; s the urban version of it. Amy Starecheski: Right (laughs). Samuel Brooks: Now that we have a multimillion-dollar park down there, let' ; s see how long--. Amy Starecheski: I can' ; t get them out of that new park. Samuel Brooks: that lasts. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. So--what did your mother do for work when you got here. Did she find a job? Samuel Brooks: She was a uhm she used to be a home attendant. She did that for about 10, 12 years. She took care of one person for that many years until they passed away and she was assigned to another person. And that' ; s what she did. She never earned more than $14,000 a year. That was her top earning. When she passed away, she had amassed about like $30,000 that she left for us. Exactly. And she managed to buy her burial plot at Moshulu. And the way she died she died of what they called a pulmonary embolism. So she was slightly overweight. She was feeling pain in her leg. She went to Lincoln Hospital. And I think one of the attendant physicians says " ; Oh you' ; re fine" ; and she was complaining about this pain and everything else. And they say something to the effect of no you could just go home and take some aspirins and you' ; ll be fine. Got to the house and then she--everybody was there. I was on my way to the house just by pure coincidence. But all my brothers were there. And she suffered a massive heart attack. The first time and then one of my brothers who is the chemist who worked at Lincoln Hospital manages to do CPR, brought her back. Ambulance was on the way and she went into another one and couldn' ; t save her. And I got to the house when I turned the corner I saw all the police and ambulance and my brother sitting there and I knew something happened. So, me being logical right, I was living with these guys in Manhattan. I said to my brother, so what happened, why did--oh she went to this that and the other, and she was this that and the other and somehow they missed something. I says okay, I went to my office and I spoke to somebody there and one guy says listen, I think you should get an attorney. You know just look into it make sure to do an autopsy. I say okay, he said I have a friend, he' ; s an attorney out of White Plains. I says you know what I' ; ll call, set up an appointment and they says okay we' ; ll take the case. And this is still while we were making funeral arrangements and I said well the first thing that we all need to do is start writing down--because my brothers lived there and all that and yellow pads to give to the attorney and we built out the story and then we sued Lincoln Hospital and and we settled with them--I think that the time was like two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. For wrongful misdiagnosis at the time so yeah. So it was again just logic and saying I think we need an attorney. I have one. Let' ; s just do this. It' ; s not going to cost us anything. So that was that. Yeah. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: When you moved here as a kid, did did your mom talk to you about what you were seeing around you, like about how to-- Samuel Brooks: No, no. Amy Starecheski: like how to handle yourself? Samuel Brooks: Because remember I had five older brothers. I was the youngest. I was the youngest. My older brother at the time when we got here, he was probably like 19. So we had an army--we had a self-sustained army you know. So they all they all knew where we were you know--oh they just came from Central America, they speak Spanish and you know we integrated right away because we came into a culture that the language wasn' ; t a barrier and we just you know and we knew right from wrong. But we had respect and we didn' ; t get involved in things that we knew were just--we didn' ; t know drugs I mean why I didn' ; t even smoke or anything like that much less staying out breaking night we used to call it. All my friends used to say yeah we stayed out until 3:00 in the morning you know. But I couldn' ; t do that. You know the other two that were ahead of me. Are you kidding me--you know so we self discipline us you know no arguments among us. There was nothing no blood no bad blood because we came from a from a culture back home that we were all close you know as far as relatives and family members--you come to the United States, you comin' ; to do something not to sidetrack. And you know we used to go to church every Sunday. Church on Southern Boulevard. Evangelical church. So you know we were still young but connected to the church. And then you start getting older and then that you know it' ; s sort of like goes that way. But so we had again discipline, pretty good discipline as a child so it wasn' ; t like she would sit up I say okay see what you saw at the corner saw the guy die and you see all the money you see--she didn' ; t have to go through that process so to speak. You know stay away from. We knew who the bad people were we knew who just came out of jail, we knew who was going into jail, we knew who killed who and that kind of thing. But that' ; s just the way that was. And we happen to just be living in the midst of it, more than partaking so to speak if that makes any sense. Amy Starecheski: It does make sense. Can you tell me more about what it was like to live through the fires? Samuel Brooks: I think I mean the fires--believe it or not before our building burned down, you know the thing to do we still do a lot of fire watching. You know every time there' ; s a fire everybody runs to the roof and try to guess--that was the game, where do you think that is? Oh that' ; s by Linc--no that' ; s not you know that was that was also a game. Literally fire watching. If it' ; s not your building on fire, you' ; ll run up to the roof and try to identify where it is and then go the next day. Yep. That' ; s what I told you. Yep. You can still smell it. You know. We used to sometimes go into the buildings and use the scrap metal that we used to get out of the building or the bathtubs. Right because by a Bruckner there was a scrap metal yard. So go with these two other guys older than me of course and we go every apartment was the bathtub was was exactly that--we used to go with sledgehammers and break them up. And bring it out and we used to sell scrap metal. That' ; s we used to get money. Every apartment had one. Think about it. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. No I have one, those big heavy bathtubs (laughs) those cast iron ones. Samuel Brooks: And the radiators as well. And that' ; s what we used to sell. Radiators and the tubs and the sink sometimes depending upon what it was. And in retrospect I would just say to myself Oh my God if I only knew right. But you know I was I was still a young man so. Amy Starecheski: You mean if you only knew how valuable those bathtubs would be like now today? How valuable or how the people that actually owned the building had an opportunity to sell them, and the city was giving them away and that kind of thing. But we were all red lined. There was no way we were going to be able to get a mortgage or a loan. If you did it was a predatory one in the ' ; 70s or in the ' ; 80s to try to buy even a home--yeah it was, it was it was difficult as a culture here in the United States of course. And that' ; s where you had the privileged folks who had access to capital. And then you had others who were relegated to apartment buildings. And you had a job of course but it wasn' ; t enough to carry you through to walk into a lending office or--and sit down and tell me about your credit history and--it' ; s just non-existent. You know that' ; s why we didn' ; t accumulate and those who did were those African-Americans who either lived in down south and owned property for hundreds of years and they got educated there they would come in and buy into Harlem or the Puerto Ricans who lived in Harlem back then who knew you know. But it was it was rare. And then you had foreigners. Came from countries like where we came from Latin America, South America, Africa. Had a little bit more resource and was able to do things you know like buy their own property but for the most part that was a dream. Amy Starecheski: Tell me about how you first got into buying and flipping houses. Samuel Brooks: Well that came out of an opportunity because at the time I was not--at the time I was I was working for I think it was Morgan Stanley because I mentioned I left Citigroup in the late ' ; 90s, ' ; 96. I went to Morgan Stanley for about two years to a more expansive role and then they started doing downsizing in 2000, 2001. So there my colleague and friend and college alumni fellow alumni. He was working--he remained at Citi and says--and we partner up with another Colombian gentleman. Says why don' ; t we start looking to buy property in the Bronx. I will go find them, say this is it and they' ; ll provide the financing and you will buy it. And we read it like any other business--we had a strict model that we built, we would buy it at this price point--not a dollar more than a dollar less. I mean not a dollar more. Amy Starecheski: A dollar less is fine! (laughs) Samuel Brooks: Yeah--this is what we' ; re going to put into it, and we' ; ll find a buyer and we just sell it not to speculators, but to families you know. To this day, the property that I ended up buying was the property that I bought the first time for $125,000 as part of the portfolio that we were buying bought that for 125 with him and refinanced and then what we ended up doing is--there was there was a note on the property and we tried to sell it for I remember that clearly we wanted to sell that one for 250 brokers caved, people caved, said nah that' ; s too much money. And I said oh wow. So we had a college friend of ours who--she was looking for a place to stay with her kids. We said well the rent is cheap, the rent is the value of the mortgage. And she says yeah of course I' ; ll move in. And she lived there for about two years, and then she said it was just too much house for her and her two kids and that she wanted something much smaller. So I thought about it, I said you know what let me buy it out of the partnership. And that' ; s when I bought it as my as my home. So that was a deal that I that I that I did I bought it with no money because we knew all the mortgage brokers, they arranged all the financing and in no money down litterally for me in that case. So that' ; s how I ended up with it. Amy Starecheski: Who--who were you buying houses from when you were doing that at first? People or banks or--? Samuel Brooks: No--so we never we never we never we were we' ; re probably buying two houses--two to three houses a year. So it wasn' ; t like you know let' ; s just do this. We were buying homes from investors who had acquired a much cheaper price--they either bought them at an auction like you were buying it from them for 150 so they probably got it for like 80 and they had so much in their portfolio that the rate that it was going they were doing it--I mean these guys, I remember them--he would go to prison and talk to inmates who had property who were doing time. That' ; s how that' ; s how they used to do it. You think about it. And they say sure there' ; s the address, I' ; ll sell on the deed what you want to give me. Give it to my sister, my girlfriend and I' ; ll sell you the house. Others had leans that day they just couldn' ; t pay taxes and everything else will be auctioned off. They used to buy their portfolios. So we used to buy it from them, and then the proliferation of mortgage brokers--the financing it was always there. I remember one of the better deals that we sold for 380--large house, almost on two sides of the street on Bathgate Avenue. Family still lives there, every time I go there to have big parties say this is the man that made this possible. The house is worth substantially more--but that' ; s the kind of thing we did it was make some money but it' ; s not too truly, it wasn' ; t necessary. Not not not at all. Amy Starecheski: Was redlining still an issue at that point? Samuel Brooks: No because that was early 2000s. So. And you know, we worked in finance so we had some track level traction in that regard. The true true friend of ours was my colleagues, my colleagues landlord in Brooklyn. He was from Columbia on quite a lot of buildings in in in Brooklyn--5th Avenue, Park Slope and became very good friend. We all became extremely good--he passed away a few years ago, he multimillionaire. So he used to underwrite quite a couple of things there. So yeah. No we don' ; t. The only time we would have been when he bought his own townhouse on Jefferson Avenue. That was the extent of it. But it' ; s not--we didn' ; t have a need to to get traditional funding. It was just straight up transactional because it wasn' ; t that well--it wasn' ; t that much, because we could' ; ve take it from one side of the ledger to apply it to the other. So. Amy Starecheski: Did you--did you feel like at that point there was any risk in investing in this neighborhood? Samuel Brooks: No. Again we 15 20--we knew already that the people that--we we started hearing Harlem is becoming expensive 20 something years ago. 30 something years ago--like here--you could have got anywhere in Harlem. I mean I remember seeing people buying townhouses $140,000, 160--beautiful homes. That was like 30 years ago. And then all of a sudden, that stopped and then all of a sudden the wave went back up again and it was a cyclical market. You had your period that nobody wanted anything there. And now here they discover what I mean--If you go if you have a tall enough building you can see it, you could see Harlem. And that' ; s when this flood gates just started bursting and then the luxury apartments that they' ; re building now and now the rentals. I mean a one-bedroom apartment for $2600 and you have to pay your own utilities so you' ; re still coming out at like $3100. You know you need to be earning at least $140,000 to be able to live comfortably without compromising your lifestyle. I mean that' ; s just the way it is. And you have people that are doing it you know they had the means to do it. They go for it you know because I' ; ve always told people in meetings know friends of mine and those who we had this gentrification conversation--I don' ; t call it an argument, I always says you work on 58 Street, as an example, and you leave your office to go grab lunch you have such choices. But you live in the Bronx. You live further up but you don' ; t have that many choices. Why is that? You know why can' ; t you convince other people like you to to just become business owners and somehow and start opening up trendy cafes, trendy bars--again just because somebody opens Mottley as an example you know--who am I to say anything other than congratulations. Now I don' ; t have to really walk that far, I can literally cover my sandals in five minutes. I have a choice of La Morada, I have a choice of Mott Haven Bar and Grill, Gun Hill Tavern. The list goes on and it grows every week there' ; s some new thing opening up you know. And that' ; s just the way it is. You know I can' ; t stop it. I cannot. Amy Starecheski: Tell me more about your block. Like when you first bought there, what was 140th like? Samuel Brooks: Now you have to remember when I first bought on 140th, 18 years ago 16 18 years ago. I mean I knew everyone I literally knew all of the people that I that I that either went to school with--they didn' ; t live literally in these townhouses. So it was predominantly Puerto Ricans that owned the houses and a few African-Americans. But for the most part yeah I guess--Yeah wow yeah. I think I was probably the second second on my side of the street across the street. There was probably one or two and that was the extent of it. Everybody else was Puerto Rican, that had been living there when I was a kid and bought these houses in the ' ; 70s for like twelve or thirteen thousand. So the block was relatively quiet. It had always been because I used to have a conversations with some of the people who' ; d been living there for 50 something years who' ; d never lived on 140, but the thing about 140 is that all the bad things that used to happen in the 70s happened on 141 and 143rd up the hill on Cypress. But 140 was always a safe ground. You come in there. The people who were dealin' ; and the bad people would always say we' ; re going to protect this block between Willis and Brook Avenue on 140th. That' ; s why you see what you see is intact. You think about it. It' ; s--it just everything that you see there remain intact with the exception of the 29 other townhouses on both side of 139 and 140th that were torn down in the 60s to make way for the school and the park. But yeah it' ; s a it' ; s always been a safe haven. It was very quiet, because again I I speak the language right. So again and I have history and I was I' ; ve been connected to that 30 years earlier you know as a little kid I used to run up and down I just didn' ; t know--I would look at these things and they look like large buildings you know. And that' ; s just the way it was there was a lot of single room occupants. So the owner would live in the garden level and they would rent out rooms--that' ; s what the predominate--every, if you want to room you go to 140th. The little houses always had a room. My home had 18 rooms. This Cuban lady used to literally sit in the front, when you come to the first door she used to have a desk and she had 18 rooms including the basement itself. And supposedly she made quite a good living at it. And everybody else had rooms with much more conservative spaces. But she she killed it. And in the last 12 13 years now you started seeing the people that are coming in, people that have professional jobs. They started buying the townhouses, they started doing massive renovations doing decking, and changing mechanics, doing exterior work. I mean I would say in the last 7 years, a lot of the homes you will notice that--they used to be very colorful. And people now realize wait a minute, you know we' ; ve got to strip, let' ; s get to the original brick and start doing so you started seeing the changes. Started seeing the sidewalks more cleaner-- because everybody knows responsible when it snows everything gets picked up collectively because everybody does their part. So everyone that' ; s there now is an actual homeowner. There is no person there that' ; s just a complete rental--probably one, probably, but no for the most part everyone that lives there owns there and lives there. So that is probably the most radical change because they truly and finally understood the value of what they' ; ve acquired earlier in the last 12 years that they say wait a minute now everybody wants to come here, so they' ; re staying put. I remember the doctor when she bought her house across from me. She bought it from a gentleman who was. A U.N. a U.N. ambassador. Not an ambassador a diplomat. He bought the house that the doctor is now living in from a lady that he befriended, bought the house for $100,000. Which is a steal. And she gave him all of the contents of the house, amazing antiques. He had is his house a couple of doors down. He sold the house put it on the market for $200,000, the doctor bought it for 205. The doctor wanted to then flip it for like 300 or 250 or whatever I remember making that phone call and calling her at the time and she wanted to just leave because at the time the neighborhood was still you know I guess she didn' ; t understand what she actually had and then eventually said well wait a minute, I' ; m not going anywhere. So those are the kind of stories of the people who just come in. Then you have others that have come in the last two years three years that want to you know lay down rules and regulations and things of that nature says characters now that are homeowners. That want to--I say no, sometimes you see those people across the street by the church sitting there, you gotta get up and say hello to them because as I mentioned when all these deliveries that are being sent with Amazon and all those things when they leave your things on your steps you know that' ; s the person who' ; s going to say leave it there I' ; ll are sign, because I' ; m here all day and I know what time X comes in. And that' ; s just the way it is now you know. Amy Starecheski: What kind of rules and regulations? Samuel Brooks: Mean you could see that you know it' ; s it' ; s live--there' ; s one or two of them, that little flavor of arrogance you know oh I' ; ve got this I paid this much money, I put in this much money into the house now it' ; s a beautiful home and I just want to invite a lot of my friends to come and enjoy wine with me in the yard. That kind of thing is you know it' ; s--things like that are not necessary because you learn the lesson the hard way. You know at the end of the day, there' ; s still going to be people walking up and down that have been in this neighborhood for before I even got here. And you' ; re always gotta keep that conscious of mind you know. But I do see the effects of gentrification by by virtue of the prices of the units, the rental units because most people are now using the garden level as as separate unit even though it' ; s still a one family. Some of us are turning it into a short-term rental with tremendous income potential there. So you asked the question right, so does that mean that you' ; re displacing some market rate apartment or an apartment that could have gone--so that' ; s a that' ; s a moving target if you ask me. Right. Because I lived there for 16 years with no one living in my house. The downstairs all I had was a bathroom and a big TV room. That' ; s the place where most of my friends will come in watch football game, parties, and what have you. And that' ; s what it became, and after a while my two kids you know they' ; re upstairs in their room and they abandoned the place. I say wait a minute you know because most of the people that had that that came in in the last 13 years immediately they turned that into a separate unit to help with the mortgage because they bought at a higher price point than I did. You still got to make the payment but--so I never even contemplated turning that into a one-bedroom apartment because most of them didn' ; t and back then the rent was probably about nine hundred, eleven hundred--now some of them again in twenty three hundred dollars. And others are just doing the short-term staying and making a lot more than that. So it' ; s just it' ; s just how you choose now to--and even if you had it on the market, the people who would come in and move in there are not the same people who' ; ve been in the community for that period of time because you' ; re not going to rent it out for five hundred dollars like 1998 prices. It' ; s not going to happen you know unless you just into charity and that' ; s what you do and that' ; s the way you want to live it and that' ; s fine but a setup like that is virtually impossible. It is virtually impossible. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me--like walk me through like your daily routine and like say it' ; s a lovely Saturday or Sunday in June--what is life like spending a day on your block? Samuel Brooks: What happens now with the with the addition of of Motleys Kitchen, typically--I tell you a typical Sunday in the summertime the last five years as an example because of the work that I do with the historic preservation I partnered up with the tourism company by a person from Ecuador who came here as a child as well in ' ; 71 and she started this Bronx historical tours. So at about 11:00 when she begins her tours on 130, a very small group anywhere from two people to four or five people she by about 11:00 she starts coming onto 140th--and I' ; m always waiting because when they come in, I get introduced to them and then I just talk to them about you know 140th and how long I' ; ve been here, not only as a homeowner but about the neighborhood, and the change in the community and so on--it' ; s like about a 10 minute conversation. And then I just sit on the stoop and just do a lot of people watching. Believe it or not just sit there. I may have one of the guys--Walter--that you that you knew from from the church or Johnny. They may sit with me and we' ; ll have some Coors Light and just people watch and then you start seeing the tour the other the tour that I did on Thursday. I tell everyone-- it was 30 about 38 people. All right. And I tell them 140th, you know I call it the whiplash block. And they would say what do you mean. Well we will coming into 140th from Willis after we did Alexander Avenue. Says okay before we go into 140 stand right here until the light changes, we' ; ll cross over, take a look down the block and everybody says wow this is a gorgeous block and I say exactly, so anytime somebody drives up or down Willis or is on a bicycle they come in and take a gander and they look at all and then you see them turnin' ; back around and it coming on the block and those on bicycles break because you don' ; t you don' ; t expect it. You literally don' ; t. And then now you start seein' ; them on Saturdays now and on Sundays--now there are two abandoned front--not abandoned but boarded up properties for 427 and 415 and everybody' ; s wondering who owns that. Wow. You know it' ; s like can I just have it, what' ; s going on here. And with the addition of Motley Kitchen out there, there' ; s a lot more activity it just people just literally just it' ; s just people and you could tell that they' ; re not from the neighborhood. They don' ; t live in the Bronx for the most part. If they do they' ; re probably teachers. But there' ; s just Ubers coming to, people going into the coffee shop, sitting there for hours and there' ; s no traffic. You know, you could be sitting there and you could see a white person two three four five six of them walk up and down something you never saw 10 years ago. Like individual just walking--and they' ; re just walking comfortably which is which is a difference right. There is no threat. You know they know that maybe something dubious is happening if you cross through the park and go there you know but you just. But you could literally tell you could tell. That' ; s why I wake up early in the morning and I just sit there my legs crossed you know and I just sit there read my magazines or read my times on my phone or whatever just to people watch. And you can see them in their minds looking at the homes and all that kind of stuff. So. I find that fascinating actually. And then in the evenings I go to my local bar--gets the best happy hour there and so it' ; s a typical Saturday, typical Sunday. Amy Starecheski: Which bar is your local bar? Samuel Brooks: I actually like Mott Haven Bar and Grill because they--I obviously know the owner well, they were sort of like the spark. But before it was called Bruckner. And but that was in the early beginnings and now when she came in six years ago that' ; s when the whole thing started and it became a teacher' ; s Friday' ; s is always crowded and they have by far the best happy hours, like 50 percent off. And Mondays and Wednesdays it goes till 10:00, Saturdays and Sundays from 8:00 to 10:00 at night. So think about it. And then you have new ones that are popping up everywhere now, you have a diversity, now you could go from a Cetay, to a steak house, to a pub, to a brewery to--always just the list is going on and on. There' ; s two more that are supposed to open by August on Bruckner Boulevard. There' ; s a new Smokehouse that' ; s come in on Alexander Avenue. There is a gourmet next to the Lit Bar, we got a bookstore. You know it' ; s just like watching this in real time. I mean to see that accelerate so quickly, it' ; s just it' ; s just crazy. I mean and now the addition of the park that just opened last week, I mean these kids are having a blast and I' ; m just hoping that the adults the young men who sit there and do what they do could at least have some understanding that their cousin, or you know their kids are actually enjoying that part of the park. And just hands off as far as vandalism--not that that happens now because the one thing everyone is learned--there are cameras everywhere. Cameras everywhere. So every time you see a crime is committed in a subway right or somebody does something on the street and you see them runnin' ; . Right. And you would think rarely if you into doing that kind of crime and you see it on TV all the time, but yet you' ; re it the next week or whatever and you know you would think--subways especially, running through the token booth. There are cameras everywhere, everywhere. Yeah I mean it does curb crime of course. But there' ; s a lot of cameras now that a lot of homeowners have put out--it' ; s like any time something happens the just, the police know exactly who has them and they go they review videos, pull videos, and not just of the homeowners but the store owners around the corner, the street lights that have camera, it' ; s just surveillance top and down, left and right. Amy Starecheski: I know we' ; re almost out of time, I have like two or three more questions. You' ; re married, right? Tell me like how did you meet your wife, when did you get married. We' ; ve left out your family a bit, obviously your kids you' ; ve already mentioned. Samuel Brooks: Yeah yeah, my youngest is twenty three. She just she so she for the most part she obviously spent 17 18 years so she spent she came in relatively young and my son is 20 28. So they spent a considerable amount of time growing up in that house. They' ; ve always lived in the Bronx. So my sister is very good friends with my wife' ; s older sister. They go back. We all go back from our times in Central America, Honduras. So my sister and her older sister are very best--they were the best friends as little kids and everything. My wife and her family moved to Bathgate Avenue back in the 60s--they were the first homeowners that bought property on Bathgate and bought the two lots that were next to. So anybody that came to the United States in the 70s every Sunday that' ; s where you would go congregate. I' ; ve always had sort of kind of like girlfriends and all that stuff that I had from the college or because I didn' ; t live among them I was always traveling somewhere and what have you. And when I was in my thirties, I started saying you know what I think I' ; m getting a little bit tired, so let me figure something out here. So I went out on a date with her--you know because they all knew each other, would say oh I think that' ; s a good match for you. I said okay. And that was it. I say you know what. Enough is enough. Now when I bought the house I say I got it, we got a good deal on it, she did not--she just say oh my god, the house oh it was just a wreck. And I said it has potential. No I don' ; t like it here, this and that, why did we come--you know is this like one of those kind of things, I said just give us some time. And that was it. So she also she is in banking as well. She worked for Citi, she' ; s worked for Chase for a number of years but she works out of the retail branch in Mamaroneck. And my kids all went to--they went to Catholic school since kindergarten all the way up until they both went to Spelman. And my son went to graduated from Lehman and my daughter. graduated from City College and she' ; s been athletic and all of that kind of stuff. And my son he wasn' ; t into that and now they you know they radically just buying their time now and he' ; s looking for an apartment and realizing how expensive it is. Says you got all the space you want here. Well you know they' ; re at that age now they wanna do--my daughter has the same thing now that she' ; s finished she' ; s waiting for the open exam for the NYPD. So she' ; s always wanted to do law enforcement, because she also figured out if I could put in 20 something years I' ; d still be young in my 40s and then figure out something else. So that' ; s her logic and that' ; s it. I mean we' ; re very simple we mean I I I think that--they said the other day you know you' ; re the social person, you don' ; t spend time in the house, you' ; re always go into events and I say well you know it' ; s part of being a community person kind of a thing. So you' ; ll always see me going at some new opening or something or giving a tour or speaking to someone or walking somebody through the neighborhood or doing an interview and what have you--it' ; s just what I do you know. So the plan is to wait it out another 10 years and at that time, we' ; ll have a lot of choices in terms of you know downsizing in terms of lifestyle and giving everything away and just get a small space somewhere that' ; s warm that allows us to go anywhere real quick. So that' ; s the story and I' ; m sticking to it. Amy Starecheski: Does your wife like hang out on the block? Samuel Brooks: No she she she drives to work so she she drives to work. Comes back in the evening, because of the traffic and what have you. She may in the summertime, stop by Bathgate see her mother spend some time there come to the house six seven. I when I get out of work, I either go across the street with some colleagues and you know--or just come to Mott Haven and meet somebody there or go to another one of bars and by about Seven thirty, eight o' ; clock, I' ; m normally home on this I' ; m hanging out with someone weekends. I try to you know stay home during the day then go outside of doing something figuring something. And then it is like an activity or a party that we that we would go to I would do that. But no. For most I am always hanging out but it' ; s always local. I could get home within minutes if I have to. Amy Starecheski: Did you worry about raising your raising your kids here. Did you have conversations with them about like what to get into and not to get into? Samuel Brooks: No because again they were very isolated in that regard you know because they were my daughter and son and my wife she would drive them to--because they went to Spellman High School, but when they got to Spelman they were able to go on their own. But before that they went to Mount Carmel on Bathgate Avenue. So it was always a controlled environment for them. They spent a lot of time on Bathgate as they were growing up and at night we would all meet and come back to 140th. So they did not hang out on a 140th. They know you know the same people that you know like Walter you know the regular new homeowner because they all know what my kids look like. They just go to work or school when they did and come home so their friends would come to the house, their friends but not like somebody from across the street or anything and they never do. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about your house like, what--you said it was a wreck when you bought it. What was it like when you bought it and what is it like now? Samuel Brooks: Well it was a wreck when I bought it but it had great bones right. So the first thing after a couple of months there and saying listen this is this a huge space you know we never had space like this. So on the parlor floor we had a lot of the original moldings and what have you but they were thick with paint. So I would say let' ; s begin to strip and lets invite friends. We used to have people come over, we used to hang out and we used to strip. I think I spent like six years just stripping. So the first major thing we did was the way the top floor was configured. It was four bedrooms and the toilet was separate from it. It was just a mess. So we demo' ; d the whole top floor and at the time I was using people that I that I knew that used to do work with some of the homes that we used to go in and out. So the work was in like a contractor type but it was very good work. But I just had the Mexican friends of ours who we used to help write contracts when they used to get other jobs and that kind of thing. So it was almost exactly that. So we redid the entire top floor, so the front became the master bedroom with a walk in closet and they middle room became my daughters with a big skylight and the back room became my son' ; s and then we' ; d modernize the electrical and that have you. And then then downstairs the garden level it was very very simple. So I then decided the easiest thing to do is knock all the walls down and just turn it into an open box. Which we did and we hung out there for a good 10, 12 year run, just people just to hang out. Every New Year' ; s Eve party was there anybody says Sam anybody gonna use that--it became what it became. And then after a while the kids had their on TV, their own friends, their own laptops and then the frequency of going downstairs to sit and watch something it wasn' ; t an appealing to them anymore. So then I said to my wife well I think we should do a short term rental or something so you know let' ; s just do that. So then we made another investment and upgraded downstairs of course. Had to re-do the flooring and put in a kitchen, open kitchen concept and the old yard, the backyard we needed to spruce it up you know lay down pavers, build a deck and the whole works. So that happened. The next thing that that will get done now is the parlor floor even though the wood is all natural. Now is the kitchen. You know we' ; re just going to demo the kitchen and do a new kitchen because you' ; ve had the same starter cabinet on purpose just there--but it' ; s because it' ; s so huge you know talking about 17 by 20. So what do you do with that space and then put a deck and I think we' ; ll be done by then and just enjoy that for a few years and then. See what the next chapter brings. So I mean we take pride I mean I' ; ve been painting my real is as you probably saw--I started that nine years ago when I was inspired and motivated and I went through a dull period of about nine eight and a half years and three weeks ago I said you know what I' ; m going to go to Home Depot--I' ; m going to take this project up again. Amy Starecheski: Is there anything that you had on your mind to talk about that I haven' ; t asked about anything, or anything you want to chat about? Samuel Brooks: No it' ; s it' ; s because I obviously I got a sense of of listening to the others. So I sort of--and I read the PDF. So I sort of got a sense in terms of where I was. Saying when I first got here and then different pieces you know, personal and professional and social. So that was part of what I expected so it wasn' ; t bad. Amy Starecheski: Good, I' ; m glad it wasn' ; t bad. Oh can you can you say like " ; my name is Samuel Brooks" ; , Sam Brooks, just so I have it on tape. Samuel Brooks: My name is Samuel Brooks. Amy Starecheski: Thanks. Anything else? Samuel Brooks: No, unless a story comes to mind or something. Amy Starecheski: Yeah we could always do more, I mean this is easy--it looks like a big rigmaroll of equipment, but this is easy to set up so we can always add more. Samuel Brooks: Yep. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Thank you so much. Samuel Brooks: No no. Thank you. I mean I' ; ve been promising to do it so-- Amy Starecheski: No it was really great to get to hear your stories and I' ; m excited to work with them. Samuel Brooks: Nice. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Any time you want to add more, just let me know. Very good. I think I' ; ll turn it off. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Brooks_Samuel_20190611.xml Brooks_Samuel_20190611.xml
Location
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Bronx, NY
Duration
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117 minutes
Dublin Core
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Title
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Samuel Brooks Oral History Interview
Date
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2019-06-11
Format
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audio
Subject
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Samuel Brooks was born in Honduras in 1962 to a land-owning, bilingual English- and Spanish-speaking black family - his family had migrated there via England, Grenada and the Panama Canal. His father died when he was young, and in 1974 the family relocated to the United States, to a Honduran community in the South Bronx. Eight months later their apartment was burned, and they moved to 140th Street between Cypress and St. Ann’s Avenue. His mother worked as a home health attendant. He grew up around early graffiti and hip hop artists, went to Alexander Burger Junior High School and South Bronx High School and attended Stony Brook University. He has worked in the financial and education industries since graduating college, and came back to Mott Haven as a house flipper in the early 2000s while working at Citigroup. He bought and slowly renovated a landmarked house on 140th Street between Brook and Willis and raised his children in Mott Haven. He is the founder and president of the Mott Haven Historical Districts Association, and regularly leads walking tours of the neighborhood. He still hangs out with his old friends who grew up in the neighborhood, and also with newer fellow-homeowners. You can usually find him on his stoop.
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview Samuel Brooks discusses experiences as a Honduran immigrant to New York City. Brooks maps his own upbringing against the changing landscape and demographics of Mott Haven from the 1970s to the time of the interview. Brooks describes his family and daily life in Mott Haven both then and now. As an investor in real estate, Brooks pays particular attention to the forces of gentrification in Mott Haven, and details how the demographics of the neighborhood have changed.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ana Alameda
OHMS Object
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Alameda_Ana_20180608.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Alameda_Ana_20180608 1:46:36 Columbia Oral History MA Program Ana Alameda Amy Starecheski 1:|1(10)|43(4)|51(6)|64(3)|77(14)|99(3)|106(7)|120(8)|136(1)|145(8)|153(12)|166(5)|177(11)|191(4)|202(1)|209(6)|218(13)|227(10)|236(17)|253(4)|265(5)|280(1)|289(5)|299(7)|306(9)|315(10)|325(6)|335(10)|356(7)|369(6)|378(4)|391(14)|407(9)|416(12)|425(13)|441(1)|464(5)|471(1)|494(5)|511(16)|521(15)|534(4)|541(8)|548(17)|557(2)|563(17)|578(1)|587(6)|607(1)|616(1)|624(13)|636(7)|642(4)|652(11)|662(7)|676(13)|686(13)|704(4)|716(3)|722(5)|728(5)|738(7)|746(7)|757(17)|768(14)|779(1)|787(6)|795(15)|808(4)|824(8)|834(4)|857(2)|865(2)|878(8)|889(5)|897(8)|911(7)|927(5)|937(13)|945(11)|957(7)|968(13)|977(7)|992(10)|1005(5)|1017(17)|1026(6)|1037(4)|1044(17)|1051(12)|1059(12)|1074(3)|1082(7)|1095(10)|1104(11)|1113(5)|1125(5)|1142(12)|1152(13)|1160(1)|1170(4)|1181(5)|1193(7)|1205(3)|1213(14)|1223(1) 0 SoundCloud audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/730327462& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Introductory Conversation: Mott Haven changing/Puerto Rican parade Ana makes the comment that there are more houses in the area. only street that hasn't changes in Alexander and 139th where there are brownstones. Ana likes the small houses, can see herself living on Amsterdam Avenue or St Nicholas. Likes the idea of high ceilings. Recalls a conversation she had with her son who said that the area is going to be predominantly white because of all the people moving from downtown. gives the example of 134 and Bruckner - what was a factory is now a loft. New buildings and businesses, not like before - Mott Haven was an empty lot. Used to take the shortcut to a supermarket by Alexander and Third Avenue ten years ago - doesn't exist anymore. Discuss the Puerto Rican heritage parade that's taking place tomorrow. Ana used to go to the parade, but not anymore. If you bump into someone, they try and start a fight with you. Ana is too short and cant see anything. Used to be a big occasion - thinks it will be different this year. 316 Ana's early years Ana Alameda was born in San Germán, Puerto Rico. December 2nd 1933. Lived there until she was 4. When she was 5, family moved to Ponce - she studied there and attended the Catholic University of Ponce, wanted to work with young children. Place where she lived when she was younger was in the countryside, was very bad. Mother used to work with a family so she ended up spending most of her time with them. Her brother was raised more in the country with their aunty. Ana's mother died - remembers being on a balcony and screaming when her father tried to take her away. Didn't have the same surname as her father, he went to court and changed her name. 453 Ana's mother and stepmother Ana's mother was very short, like Ana. Always in bed, died from tuberculosis. Ana was raised by her stepmother. She didn't have any children with Ana's father, her sister worked around the house. Ana says that's why she doesn't know how to cook or clean - stepmother didn't let her do anything, but let her sister do it all. Stepmother was very kind to her - because of her she is where she is today. Ana was 2 when her mother died. Remembers the day of the funeral, her stepmother trying to explain to her that her mother was in the cemetery. 572 Moving to Ponce Moved to Ponce when she was 5 - didn't go to kindergarten, straight into first grade at Lincoln School. A lot of prominent people came from Ponce. Did 1st-3rd grade there, attended a different school for 4th-6th grade. Went to Ponce High School, graduated in 1952. As a teenager Ana didn't have much freedom, doesn't mind because that's just how she was raised, isn't like that now. Used to pretend to teach her dolls. As a student she was average, never left back but wasn't the brightest. She can do basic math - not calculus or algebra, which they teach in high school now but used to be college level when she was growing up. She was good at spelling. 796 Graduating from High School Didn't wear a toga to graduate, wore a nice light green or yellow dress. Remembers the graduation from 8th Grade was beautiful. Wanted to study, father didn't want her to go to school - wanted her to clean houses. Stepmother disagreed, said Ana should go to college. Stepmother's brother was in the army and sent money for Ana to go to college. They were raised together and Ana calls him her stepbrother. College was a $9 credit, no such thing as financial aid. She had friends who were going to college and Ana belonged to a sorority. Wasn't hard back them. Ana became a teacher. When you started off as a teacher, you didn't work in the city - had to take a car from home to go out to the countryside. Thinks she's a very quiet person, didn't have a " ; sweet 16" ; or debutante. 985 Coming to New York came to New York because step-sister was already in the city and said they're looking for people to teach some Spanish to the kids. Hard to find a job when she arrived. Started working in different places, in offices downtown. Got called into a school, and a child swore at her. Ana thinks it would be worse now, because that was in the 1960s - kids hit their teachers now. Was told she needed to have a Bachelors degree to be an assistant teacher, and to be a group teacher you needed a masters degree. All the teachers left and she was always put as the group teacher because she liked to teach. Would get told off by the director, he was concerned about the assessments. Co-workers agreed with her. Did a lot of field trips to Sesame Place, Hershey Park, Splish and Splash and Coney Island. Ana is 4ft 8, weighs 85 pounds. 1189 Flying from PR to NYC Flight from Puerto Rico to New York was 8 hours long. Plane had propellers, flew into Idelwild. Saw buildings that were black from having burned out. Ana came by herself. 1303 Getting off the plane in New York Was struck by how strange everything was - in PR everything is flat. Her stepsister and her husband came to pick her up from the airport. Dropped her off and she was struck by the four floored building, and the railroad apartments. She learned the subway lines quickly - knew how to get to 42nd street fast. Sister lent her a pair of boots to make walking in the winter easier. Boilers in the building ran on coal, not oil 1401 First apartment Lived with her sister on Bergen Avenue, railroad apartment. When she got married she moved, and went and spoke to Herman Badillo, the Borough President at the time, to help her to get an apartment in the projects. In December 1965 she moved to Millbrook Houses. Had to put down the joint income of her and her husband and where her children were in school to get the apartment. Lived there until 1975, when she and her husband moved to Betances because that's where he worked, is where she still lives. Still in the same apartment. Feels safe in the neighborhood, everyone knows her. She's very outgoing. Lived on 12th floor in Millbrook and son went to St. Lukes. Tuition was $3, and the subway was 5 cents. Went to Herman Badillo to get the apartment because her step sister was very involved with the PR clubs - different ones for different cities. That's how she met Herman Badillo and he helped her. Also got help from Jose Serrano who helped her fill in the paperwork to work at the daycare, he was raised in Millbrook. 1640 Jobs in the area when Ana first arrived A lot of factories in the area. Brook Avenue, Bruckner Boulevard were all diill of factories making purses, curtains, beds, a glove, handbag. Lots of factories making small things. Everyone had jobs. Sister used to work in a factory making dresses - made the one Ana was wearing on the day of the interview. Ana would buy the maerial and sister would make it. There was a lot of work, until the factories started to move to CT and NJ. Ana didn't work in the factories, she worked in offices downtown across from Macys. Liked filing. and working with the adding machine. Also did a lot of typewriting. 1830 Ana meeting her husband Husband was step-sister's husband's brother. Name was Nelson. Came in 1962 and went to live with his brother downtown. They didn't have a wedding, very simple. He liked to drink and was a bit of a playboy. Passed the year before the interview on November 5th. He looked like Ana's sone. He was sick in end, went to PR to be with another woman. Ana didn't care, she wouldn't fight for him. When her son died, he didn't come visit him before he passes even when her son asked to see his dad. 1833 Ana's sons Ana had three boys. Eddy is the oldest who lives in NJ, he was born in Lincoln hospital - difficult birth, Ana had to have a C-section. She had to stay in the hospital for a month afterwards. Nowadays they send you straight home. Lincoln hospital was like a hotel, the old one had an entrance like a townhouse with a high ceiling and dome. Nurses had white dresses. No individual rooms, all big rooms with lots of rooms. Had her second child in St. Francis. Betances is now where St. Josephs hospital used to be. 2300 Ana's Sons II Ana came to Mott Haven in 1960. Bad before she arrived, walking in the street at 3 or 4am there were a lot of drugs but not really crime or muggings. Safe to walk in the street, felt save in Millbrook. Her stepmother came over from PR to help her with her kids and take her son to pre-school while she was in hospital. She would go to work, and stepmother would take care of the kids. She had a problem with her second son, had a neighbor on the 16th floor look after him but her son was abused - Ana didn't find out about it until she took a trip to PR. Son told her because he was being threatened by his abuser. Ana told her husband, he was angry - was going to kill the neighbor (who was 13 or 11 years old). From then on, Ana brought her kids to the daycare with her. she worked with them and then when they went to St. Lukes, the director gave her permission to go and pick them up and bring them back to work. Her first son went to high school at Rice, a catholic school. moved with his girlfriend, worked at Food emporium downtown. Then worked at UPS until they transferred work to PR. Started working as a waiter, made good money. Her second son was an honor student at St. Lukes. Went to St Michael's academy, and then Pace University. Got involved with drugs, was still working. Met Brenda, had a son with her. Ended up in jail, tried to change but it was too late - had already caused damage to his stomach and liver. Passed away in 2004. Ana was in a car accident in 2002, two months in the Lincoln and three months in the nursing home for rehabilitation. Her third son took the death of her second son hard, started drinking heavily. Moved back in with his mother. He cooks. Younger than Ana but more sick, he's Mark's father. He was mostly raised by Ana Soler, his other grandmother, who sent him to Syracuse. He says he owes everything to his grandmothers. Joey was outgoing like Ana. 2905 Bringing up Teenagers Used to play a lot of board games and Atari. They didnt like to go out much, if they did Ana went with them. Everywhere Ana went, her sons went with her. ana would play baseball in the back with them, and volleyball. Eddy had a dirt bike. Husband bought a billiard table. Tried to keep things so that they wouldn't go out. And the neighborhood was not that bad. They liked to play nice game outside. They played hockey in the back, play football in the front and they say, " ; one Mississippi, two Mississippi" ; . When ana first moved neighborhood was mostly Italian, Irish, Jewish, a few folks from PR in Millbrook. The Spanish Mass was in the lower church and the English Mass was in the upper church and it was not that many Puerto Ricans. Now it's a lot of Honduran, Guatemalan, on Cypress Avenue. Irish people were very nice, treated people from PR like everybody else. No bullying. ana used to stay at the school giving out late passes until she started work at 10.30. Liked to help with the kids. 3335 Working at the Daycare Daycare was at St Ann's and 135th. Pamela Torres. The first daycare in New York. First in Prospect Avenue. Judge who worked in the criminal court named the daycare after Pamela Torres who's daughter died of leukemia. He was a nice person. Used to take her kids to the coal dump. He owned the daycare, until her moved to Flodia. Used to like in Beck Avenue. Ana didn't get involved in any of the PR clubs, unlike her step-sister who did. Neighborhood started to change in the 90s. People from different countries started to move to the area, was like the UN. Now a lot of white people are coming from other places to the Bronx. Especially on 134th and Bruckner. Ana notices them going to the supermarket, they have big dogs. ana thinks people want to move to MH because there's process in the area. There are new buildings, new commercial units. Ana is skeptical - building on 138th that's supposed to be a shelter, Ana is unsure if that's true. Exterior has a lot of beautiful buildings. Transport is good. 3795 Bronx is burning Ana didn't notice the buildings burning down until Nehemiah houses. St Mary's part was very different too, a lot of drugs - felt dangerous to cross. Drug addicts were burning the benches. A lot of murder in the park, wasn't like that when she arrived in the 60s. Buildings started to be abandoned. People started giving the down payment, buying the house, and then they abandoned the building - people were moving from NY to NJ, PN and CT. Started turning buildings into Burger Kings. People dont want their kids to grow up in Mott Haven. Ana decided to stay. Her grandson - born and raised in the South Bronx, is a good example for the neighborhood. Up to parents, to encourage them to finish. His friends on little league havent finished high school have gotten girls pregnant. But these kids, sometimes they don't want to listen. They want to follow their peers. That's why they say peer pressure. Ana has never wanted to leave MH. Everyone knows her. born in Puerto Rico but raised in New York. She owns her house, feels secure. doesn't worry about losing the apartment. 4294 Day in the life of Ana in the morning, goes to the bodega and buys coffee because she cant make it at home. Takes bread, puts it in the oven before eating it. Goes and runs errands. By 1 or 1.30, goes home and watches 'Who Wants to be A Millionaire.' Otherwise spends most of her time out of the house. when she sees her friends sitting on a bench she'll go over and chat to them. Everyone likes her because she doesn't fight with anyone. 4424 Teatro Puerto Rico Went to shows at TPR during the 60s. Also had a lot of cookouts in the park or in the yard. A lot of parties in the house - Birthdays, bridal showers, baby showers. Not like now. Libertad Lamarque, El Trio San Juan, Iris Chacon all played at the TPR. Iris Chacon was the JLo of the 60s. The restaurant next to TPR was always full when Iris Chacon was playing. Shows would finish at 3am, was safe to walk home. Closed TPR because drive-in theaters became popular. One opened up on Bergen avenue, the five and ten. When Ana moved to NYC she thought everything was 5 or 10 cents, same way the dollar store is now. In Dollar tree everything is a dollar. Could picks the kids up from school and take them to the 5 and 10 for lunch, would get a hot meal. 4679 The Blackout during the blackout the stores were ransacked. remembers there being no heat or air-conditioning, was during the summer in June and July. Was living in Millbrook at the time, the second time it happened she was living in Betances. Second was the biggest, blackout lasted two or three days. Had to go to the senior center for aid and food, Red Cross came to give blankets. in 1967 a small plane fell into St Mary's park, was tow years after Kennedy was assassinated. Wasn't really aware of the Young Lords. There were kids from PR in the gang too. Feels now is more dangerous than before. Remembers the Young Lord and the guardian angels. GA's wore red berets, looked after the South Bronx. People were afraid of the police - one officer in particular, O'Hara. People dont respect the police anymore. Cars come from upstate NY to get drugs. Ana still feels safe, hears about Brooklyn and feels MH is safer. Doesn't think the bronx is that bad. 5112 Joey going to jail Ana got her son, Joey sent to jail. Ana used to close up the daycare, one night Joey store her keys and took all the money that parents had paid for their kids pictures. Ana had Joey sent to jail. When the police came to her house, they saw the picture of him graduating from St. Michael. Loved her son, but he had to learn. She wasn't fired, worked there for 35 years. Mr Torres forgave Joey, knew it was the drugs that made him doe it. Crack epidemic was really bad in the area, used to make pipes out of jukeboxes and aluminum foil. Would inject it too. Made her son do things he would never have done, he was the best and he was very sick in the end. Joey ended up being violent, his hearth declined. Went to the hospital and was given 48 hours to live, passed away the next day. Would pray everyday when she was going to visit him that God would take him way because her whole family was suffering. Only person that could get through to him was Ana soler. He is at peace now, and so is the family. He was a good father but the drugs killed him. ADC took her grandkids away because their mother tried to kill herself in Ana's apartment. Brenda and Joey went to ADC, Marky went with Joey and Matthew went to Ana Soler. Marky got sick and ended up also going to Ana. 5588 Ana's faith Feels god is always with her and that he will always forgive her. She only goes to church on Sunday, doesn't think she's a catholic. doesn't belong to to Sagrado Corazon, to Legion de Maria - not for her. Ana Soler could do it, but she couldn't. could go to peoples houses and talk to them. Ana just goes to church, knows that God is always with her. Prays for people. Ana Soler is her best friend. Everything involves her, she is her healthcare proxy. Even though her daughter and Ana's son don't get along. On Sunday she goes to play bingo in the Betances building. Her and Ana go out on Saturdays, sometimes eat in Olive Garden. whenever they travel people call them the golden girls. took the grandchildren to PR. Last night of their trip, they went to a casino and ana hit the jackpot. They're always together. Met when Freddy and Joey were on little league together, used to play by Cardinal Hayes and in St Mary's. AS's a Yankees fan, AA's a Mets fan. Ana remembers her step mother telling her that the Yankees don't like Puerto Ricans, so she should support the Mets. 5620 Opinions of the South Bronx People's opinion of the South Bronx is generally surprised, think it's bad but Ana disagrees. Thinks people have to live in a place before they can judge it. People who come to the bronx are surprised by how it's changed. ana always says she feels safe. A lot of people who came to St Luke's who were visiting were coming from out west, because that's when the people started moving out and they start getting those buildings after the Bruckner Express was built. People felt good when they were building Nehemiah houses. But when they started building in St Mary's they were more doubtful. The Nehemiah Houses housed mostly folks from PR. Most are parishioners of St Pius or St. Lukes, with the help of Father Ryan they would get in. Co-worker's husband regretted not buying one of those houses. People who bought houses in Nehemiah got involved with the neighborhood. Everyone cooperates well with each other. Remembers Marky winning the debate in St Pius and being on Channel 12. Ana Alameda: More over there (laughs). Believe me. But now with all those row of houses, improving. Amy Starecheski: Right. Ana Alameda: And not only there, look at this! All these houses here, 139th a few houses too. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Ana Alameda: The only one that hasn' ; t changed is Alexander. Oh no! And 139th. Those brownstones and townhouses or how do you call it? I like that. That' ; s--and I like--I love small houses. I love it. Because I see myself in Amsterdam Avenue. St. Nicholas. It has a lot of rowhouses over there too. You know. Amy Starecheski: Right. Ana Alameda: And the way I see in the picture is like high ceiling. High ceiling and those stairways, the wood--very hard. Amy Starecheski: Mhm. Can I clip this onto you? This is the microphone. Ana Alameda: I am on TV? Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) It' ; s like a TV microphone, right? Ana Alameda: No I know this is the one that they have on TV. Because I was watching The View. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Ok. I' ; ll keep- I' ; ll wear headphones so I can listen to the sound and see how--see how it sounds. Ok. I' ; m going to just test the levels. Can you tell me what you had for breakfast today? Ana Alameda: My coffee with a piece of bread with butter (laughs) and I put it in the oven--convection oven. Oh my God. It was delicious. Amy Starecheski: Tell me--you were just telling me before I turned the recorder on that you were talking with your son about what the future of Mott Haven will be. Could you tell me that again? Ana Alameda: He said that in the future this gonna be all white people because they coming from downtown. You go 134th and Bruckner Boulevard, that building that was a factory is a lot of loft. Loft. And they interview a guy on TV. The way he put that loft, beautiful. He likes to see that documentary on TV and he called me. " ; Come mami, come mami, look, that' ; s 134 and Bruckner." ; I say, " ; Oh." ; And you see all the buildings and the business opening? They was not like that before. Nope. Even though here on Willis it was only Mott Haven, it was an empty lot. I didn' ; t see no building when I came here. It was an empty lot. Because I used to take the shortcut to a supermarket by Alexander and Third Avenue. That- corner like that. It was a supermarket used to one was Fedco [phonetic] the other one was EMV [phonetic] up by Brook Avenue at the end. But this is ten years ago. I' ; ll tell you somebody was a killer. A lot of drugs. It' ; s still the drugs around. But before, here it was empty buildings on St Ann' ; s. And they--a lot of people used to cook in the summer--those empty lot. Making barbeque and selling food. That was a place, in St Mary' ; s. Then they start building those houses. Then they moved to 156th and Bergen Avenue. They used to do--and they danced and do a lot of this stuff especially today and tomorrow because it' ; s the Puerto Rican heritage, the parade, tomorrow' ; s going to be in El Barrio. Amy Starecheski: Do you have plans for tomorrow? Ana Alameda: No. Believe me, I don' ; t like that. When I came to this country, yes. I used to go to the parade. But now it' ; s very different, it' ; s very hard. You can--if you bump somebody, it start a fight. You know, you can do not--and especially I' ; m too short. I can' ; t see nothing (laughs). But I used to, oh my God. I used to do every parade. And all the Puerto Rican people used to come, the mayors. I think this year is very sad because of what happened. I don' ; t think it' ; s going to be that--and to see what we used to have. Because we' ; re still struggling. Amy Starecheski: Just to start off-- Ana Alameda: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: I' ; ll say that today' ; s date is June--what is it, the 10th? 9th? Ana Alameda: What? Amy Starecheski: Shoot. Today' ; s date. Ana Alameda: 8th. Amy Starecheski: 8th. Okay Okay. That' ; s right because 9th and 10th is the weekend. Today' ; s June 8th, 2018. This is Amy Starecheski and this is for the Mott Haven Oral History Project, so can you say your full name and where and when you were born? Ana Alameda: My name is Ana Alameda. I was born in San Germán [phonetic], Puerto Rico. December 2nd, 1933. Until maybe 4 years old. When I was 5 years old, I moved to Ponce. I study all my years and I went to Catholic University of Ponce. I did my bachelor' ; s degree to work with early childhood, because that' ; s what I like, small kids. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me, before you were 5, tell me about the place where you lived? What was it like? Ana Alameda: Oh it was in the campo. The country. Was very bad. I didn' ; t get that much to be in the--in the [unclear] because my mother used to work with a family and I spent the time with that family. My brother was the one who was raised in the country with the aunty. So my mother died and I was--I remember--I was in the balcony and Sililo, that' ; s when they called my father, came to say, to take me, and I started screaming, " ; (Spanish) Sililo, he' ; s taking me!" ; He took me, well he win because he was--I didn' ; t born with his name. I was born with Ana Elisa Iglesia. Then he went to court and the papers they put me his name. But it was hard to live in the country (laughs). I didn' ; t have that much. Because my father. I have a lot of brothers and sisters that I don' ; t know them. He was a playboy (laughs). Amy Starecheski: What was your mother like? Ana Alameda: I think she was tiny like me and the sister too. But she was always in bed because she died from tuberculosis. That' ; s what they told me. My stepmother told me that. But the one that raised me was my stepmother and I owe her what I am today. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about her? Ana Alameda: She was not that dark, but light brown. And she was--she didn' ; t have no, no kids with my father. She had a sister. And the sister do everything in the house. That' ; s why I don' ; t know how to cook. I don' ; t know how to do nothing. She didn' ; t let me do nothing. She was there. The beauty. She didn' ; t let me do nothing. That' ; s why I don' ; t like to cook and I don' ; t know nothing, only rice. But she was nice to me. Because of her I am where I am today. Otherwise if it wasn' ; t for her, maybe I' ; m living in the system. I owe everything to her. Amy Starecheski: And how old were you when your mother died? Ana Alameda: I was two years old. Amy Starecheski: Two years old. Ok. Ana Alameda: I live in Porta Coeli, San Germán. And my step mother told me, " ; look! Nina, Here is your mother. That' ; s there. They turning that into a cemetery." ; I was playing with a balloon. I always remember that. She never denied me that my mother there, but you know at an early age, you don' ; t blame them. That' ; s it. I remember balloons. I was in the front yard, not in the yard the front of the house, because the yard is in the back and they was passing the funeral. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me--you said you moved to Ponce when you were five. Ana Alameda: Ponce. Five because I made my kindergarten--no kindergarten years ago. My first grade in the Lincoln School. Ponce. In I believe Buenos Aires - closer to Belica. Belica is a barrio that a lot of big ones: [unclear] they give us baseball players, they came here from there. It' ; s a nice--it' ; s like a, how you call that? No campo. It' ; s something like, only colored people live over there in Belica. In Ponce. A lot of big, you know, prominent people. Victor Rueyes [phonetic], he was not a millionaire, but he has a lot of money. Then I went to the first, second and third and I- they sent me to a [unclear name of school]. I made my fourth, fifth and sixth grade. I graduated from there. Then I went to [unclear name of school], another intermediate school, until eighth grade and ninth grade and then I went to Ponce High School, closer to [unclear]. In 1952, I graduated from Ponce High School. Amy Starecheski: What were you like as a teenager? Ana Alameda: My mother, she has me like this. You know I don' ; t have the freedom that they-- that' ; s the way, you know. I said, " ; Mami, can I go to the movie?" ; " ; Ask your father." ; " ; Papi, can I go to the movie?" ; " ; Ask your mother." ; What that means? " ; No." ; No. She Don' ; t let me go to nobody' ; s house. But I didn' ; t mind, you know that' ; s the way I was raised. It' ; s not like now. But I like to do take a muneco, a little fluffy--and put it on the floor and teach them, that' ; s what I like it, yeah. Amy Starecheski: You like to pretend to teach your dolls? Yeah. Ana Alameda: Yeah. All my life, yes. Amy Starecheski: What kind of student were you? Ana Alameda: I was not a bright student. I was the average. The average. But I never was left back. Never. Because I was an average student. I know. But bright? No (laughs). The only thing is the math, the basic one. When I was in high school, what they teach now in the schools, I did that in college. Calculus? Oof! I never came to algebra, all that stuff. That' ; s why my grandson--I said, " ; I can' ; t help you, Matthew. My math, that level is no good." ; Amy Starecheski: When you-- Ana Alameda: I can be good in the spelling. But math? No. High level? No. (Laughs) Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) When you were graduating from high school, what kinds of options did you have? What choices were you making? Ana Alameda: Like what? Because the graduation was not with toga. We did it with nice dresses, like a rainbow. A very light color--green, yellow. I remember that. Beautiful graduation from eighth grade. And I always wanted to study. My father was the one who doesn' ; t want me to go to school. He wanted me to be cleaning the house. And my stepmother said no, she' ; s going to college. She' ; s going. And then her brother, it was only nine dollars a credit. Her brother was a soldier and with the money he sent me to college. My step-brother--I call him my step-brother because we were raised together. And it was only nine dollar a credit, that they don' ; t have no financial aid, nowhere. Amy Starecheski: Did you have friends who were also going to college? Ana Alameda: Yes. I belonged to a sorority, but it' ; s not hard like it is now. You know, they do hard things now. Before, they make you walk around the street with a ball in your mouth. All that. You know, very simple things. You know the way we were raised I was innocent with the kids. Not like now they are oohoo [unclear]. That' ; s what I told Marky I don' ; t remember. It was nice. I have friends but like I say, when I was a teacher they sent the first--when you first being a teacher, you don' ; t work in the city. They send you for those--campo, country. I had to take a car from my house. From there and there to there to the country. And my mother--you know, not to be from my house. I can' ; t go outside. No! But I tell you, I didn' ; t need the money either. Uh huh. And that' ; s the way I am anyway. Still I' ; m a very quiet person, I don' ; t get in no trouble with nobody. But it was good. I have friends. With I didn' ; t have my sweet sixteen, my debutante. No. Nothing. But we didn' ; t know all that- only society people do the ceremony in the bahia and all those fancy stuff. Amy Starecheski: Why did you come to New York? Ana Alameda: Well, I came to New York because my step-sister is here and said they' ; re looking for people to teach here some Spanish to the kids. So I came but it was hard to find a job when I came, so I stayed with it and I started working different places, in offices in downtown, all the stuff. Until they call me in the school. But the kid told me--I don' ; t want to say it! So I said this is not for me. No. F-U-C-K. The first thing he told me. And that wasn' ; t--in the 1960' ; s. Just imagine now. They hit their teachers now. So I said I wait for the--they call me from the day care that you need to have the Bachelor' ; s degree to be assistant teacher. And the group teacher has the Master. But all the teachers left and they always put me as the group teacher because I like to teach. I like to teach. Oh no! I don' ; t want the kid to be playing all the time. When they go to kindergarten, they are already prepared because they think everything is play, play, play. And the director told me, " ; Mrs. Medina" ; --because that was my married name--" ; you' ; re not supposed to do that, because when assessment comes" ; - I said don' ; t worry, when they come, I do what I supposed to do. And then my co-workers agreed with me. We have the teamwork and when you have the teamwork, everything works. Even though the parents, said, " ; Oh, Mrs. Medina" ; - I said well---they havetend to other people, you go out, they don' ; t do what they used to do. I make a lot of trips to the kids. Sesame Place. Hershey Park. Splish and Splash. Coney Island. I did a lot of trips with the kids, but in one of them, the parent has to go [unclear]. OK? Tell the parent. They agree? Sesame Place has a lot of water, so a parent needs to be with the kids. But I never had a problem with the kids. I always counting out. Group teacher is short the other one was tall. But that' ; s no problem. Problema. Amy Starecheski: You keep saying that you' ; re short but the people listening to the tape can' ; t see you. Ana Alameda: (Laughs). Amy Starecheski: Can you describe yourself for me? Ana Alameda: Oh my God. I don' ; t- I' ; m about 4' ; 8" ; . 4' ; 8" ; . I only weigh 85 pounds. I' ; m really tiny. My parents were tiny, too, small. Do you see Mark is not that big? The father is the same height. Only on the other grandmother' ; s side, tall uncles. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about the trip from Puerto Rico to New York? Ana Alameda: Eight hours in the airplane. It was the one that had the--how you call that? Not the one now. Amy Starecheski: The propellers? Ana Alameda: The propellers. Eight hours. To get here. It was the Idlewild. It was not Kennedy. Idlewild. That was the airport name. I came and I see a lot of different--and I say, " ; Oh my god these are burning buildings!" ; And my father said the same thing! It was burning building because it was black. Now it' ; s different because they put in that kind of bricks. But before it looked like they were burning buildings. And I kept [unclear] building, no. They don' ; t exist no more. Now there are houses. On the front, too, they was building. Now they are agency for foster kids and the college too for those people that they don' ; t know that much English. Ooh! I forgot I had that [touching microphone]! Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) That' ; s ok. You' ; re like what is this thing clipped onto me? Did you come by yourself? Ana Alameda: Yes. I came by myself. Amy Starecheski: What did you do when you got off the airplane? Ana Alameda: I was look around. Because something is strange for me. I never, you know- raising in Puerto Rico, that everything is flat. That it was. But they was--my sister, my step-sister and her husband was waiting for me. And I, you know, I came to where they drop me and I saw the building and going up four floor like this (gestures). Ooh! And then I look at that train apartment (laughs). But then I get used to it I remember that right away, I get used to it (claps). Even though when I went to work downtown, her--Dona Cecilia? No- Her husband announced that follow the line in the [unclear] and then you can walk. I used to go the shorter [way] in 42nd Street because I learn like that (snaps): fast. Oh no! I learned fast. Even when I was to my lunch hour, went to it, I want the same thing that she has. [Indiscernible] But I can' ; t. I don' ; t. From my experience that everybody I think have that. Then to take the train. I didn' ; t have no boots. My sister lend me her boots. And I was moved, moving down the Mott Haven section over there in the projects. Walking like that because the snow, it was very hard in the snow. The building doesn' ; t have the oil. It used to be charcoal and the super was always with the shovel putting the charcoal in the down stairs for the boilers. That was the way it was before. Amy Starecheski: Can you describe your first apartment for me? Ana Alameda: Then, I live with my sister. I moved to Bergen Avenue. It was a train too. Because before you buy the apartment with a signature. I move over there with my sister because I married [unclear]. When I' ; m married then I moved down- I married with my sister, brother-in-law, the--Marky' ; s grandfather, Medina. Then I moved to Bergen Avenue. I was there until 1965. I went to Herman Badillo, the Borough President by that time, to help me to get an apartment in the projects. And that' ; s how I get move in December 10, 1965. I moved to Millbrook Houses. Before, you have to put the income of you and your husband, where the kids are in school and all of that. To give you the apartment. I was there until 1975. Then my husband used to work in Betances and then I moved to Betances complex and I' ; ve been there all these years. The same floor. Third floor. No matter they don' ; t give good heat. But I feel comfortable because everybody knows me. I feel safe in the neighborhood. Everybody knows me. Even my son say, " ; Oh mommy everybody knows you. You said, you say." ; I said, " ; That' ; s the way I am!" ; I am very outgoing. I call myself presenta. I don' ; t know how you call that, but I call myself presenta. I said before somebody tell me, I tell myself. Presenta. Ana Alameda: But it was you know, Millbrook I was living in the twelth floor and my son attended St. Luke' ; s. That was the school. It was only three-dollar tuition. Three-dollar tuition and five cents--the subway. I still have the token in my house. I have all those tokens. Different kinds of them. Amy Starecheski: How did you know to go to Herman Badillo to get an apartment? Ana Alameda: You know listening my step-sister, she was very--how you call that? Very into the [Spanish] because here, years ago they have different club for the cities in Puerto Rico: [lists Puerto Rican municipalities]. So she was in that thing with all the people from Puerto Rico. That' ; s how I met and I went to see him and he helped me. And even to get my--when they called me from the daycare I went to Jose Serrano too. That' ; s the one that he was born in. He was raised in Milbrook and he filled all paper for me to work in the daycare because I get my from college, all my documents. And that' ; s it. But now to Betances because Betances was my home, I used to work in Betances and that' ; s how I moved from Milbrook to Betances. Amy Starecheski: What kinds of jobs were there around here when you first came? Ana Alameda: Lot of factories. Factories all over the place. [Unclear], Brook Avenue, people go all those--Bruckner Boulevard, they were factories. Purses, curtains, beds, a glove, handbags, a lot of factories doing small things. But they had jobs. They had jobs. Know the machine, the metal machines? My sister was one that work in the metal machine factory sewing dresses. Yeah. She was the one who made me this (laughs). Amy Starecheski: She made you that dress? Ana Alameda: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s beautiful. Ana Alameda: I give a copy of one that I like and I bought a lot of material and she make it. Because she used to work in those factories too. That' ; s what happened. It' ; s a lot of work before. Factories all over the place. Anything. You can do. Even Ana, didn' ; t she work in one of those factories with her sister-in-law? Yeah. Did she tell you that? Oh really. Amy Starecheski: I think she might have mentioned it but I only talked with her a little bit so far. Ana Alameda: Yeah. That because there was a lot of work. There was no home attendant by that time. Because a lot of factories a lot of work. Umbrellas. Then they start moving to New Jersey, Connecticut, the factories start moving. Amy Starecheski: Did you work in any of the factories? Ana Alameda: No. I work at offices downtown. By, across from Macy' ; s. That used to be Woolworths, in front of Macy' ; s over there. Because I like filing. I didn' ; t know but you know, let me go and try. A lot of filing, a lot of work with those machines that used to (sound effects). That' ; s the machine that, before I forgot the name of it. It' ; s like a computer but it was not computer. I don' ; t know, but-- Amy Starecheski: Like an adding machine? Ana Alameda: Yeah! Adding machine. The stores, the cashier, but it was not like that one now. You have to find out what you change you' ; re going to get to the person. Now the machine told you what you get. But before no. It was old-fashioned. Typewriting. Ah! Lot of term paper that I did in typewriting. Amy Starecheski: How did you meet your husband? Ana Alameda: That was my sister--step-sister' ; s--husband brother was Jesus. My husband was Nelson. Now he came in 1962 and he went to live with her brother in--I don' ; t know. Downtown. By Delancey. But they used to visit Candida that and then he [unclear] (laughs). Amy Starecheski: Did you have a wedding.? Ana Alameda: No. No wedding. Simple. Very simple thing. No wedding. I don' ; t have no Sweet Sixteen, no nothing. But I feel happy anyway. But he was another one that liked to drink and playboy. He died last year. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m sorry. Ana Alameda: November 5th. He was like the pic of my son who look on the computer or whatever, the tablet. He see that picture, he was heavy. I think he was sick, too. Because he went to Puerto Rico because the woman that he has. I don' ; t care. I say, " ; Let [him] go." ; I don' ; t fight for no man. Nah. Even though when my son died, he didn' ; t come. He asked for him, " ; Mami, tell papa to come here before I die." ; I call him. [Unclear]. Ok, fine. That' ; s it. He' ; s over there now with him. Amy Starecheski: How many children did you have? Ana Alameda: Three. Boys. Joey, that died, Eddy, and the one that live in New Jersey. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: And which one was the oldest? Ana Alameda: The one in New Jersey. Amy Starecheski: Uh huh. Do you remember when he was born? Ana Alameda: He was born in Lincoln Hospital. He gave me a hard time. I was one month--because I' ; m very small. I was weigh a hundred, and eight and a half pounds. So they cut me so I have to be with Lance in the hospital for one month. Amy Starecheski: How did you take care of him when you were in the hospital? Ana Alameda: The hospital I had to stay with him. Even--no matter--years ago they don' ; t care about--now they send you to the house (sound effect) right away. No. Years ago you stay in the hospital. Lincoln Hospital was beautiful. Oh my God. It looked like a hotel, oh yes! That entrance? Oof! That was beautiful. Amy Starecheski: [Phone ringing]. Sorry. Let me get that. I' ; ll just turn it off. Ana Alameda: Ok. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m going to be so curious to see what you think of that book [When I Was Puerto Rican] because-- Ana Alameda: To eat a guava, guyava in Spanish, oh I love guava. Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) Can I get you anything else? Ana Alameda: Oh no, no. Thank You. Amy Starecheski: Sorry about that. Ana Alameda: Do you read Spanish? Amy Starecheski: No. Ana Alameda: [Reads in Spanish]. Ana Alameda: That' ; s when I was living in Puerto Rico at that point. It' ; s long but I always remember that. Cundeamor is a plant. It' ; s a plant. That has a fruit, its shape as a- it' ; s oval and it' ; s red inside. And the bird used to eat it. I used to eat it too. And my mother made the- take the leaves on the cundeamor and boil it. And give it to my father for the diabetes. Not to cure, but to control. That way he doesn' ; t have to put the injection, insulina. But he controlled the diabetes with the cundeamor. I try- that doesn' ; t grow here, it' ; s only in Puerto Rico. Amy Starecheski: You were telling me about Lincoln Hospital. Ana Alameda: Oh yeah. Amy Starecheski: What it was like there. Was this the old Lincoln Hospital or the new Lincoln Hospital? Ana Alameda: Huh? Amy Starecheski: The old-- Ana Alameda: No, the old one! Amy Starecheski: Okay. Ana Alameda: Oh my God, that entrance! You see those townhouses and the entrance, that had that long ceiling and the dome? That was the Lincoln Hospital. It was beautiful and the nurses has to have the white dress with their hats here with their black [unclear]. That' ; s what the nurses--the way they dress before. All white dresses. No pants. White socks. Knee-high pantyhose and white shoes. No individual room. It was a big room with a lot of beds. That' ; s the way you was when you was in the hospital. Now they have separate rooms, but before, no. Even St. Francis hospital, too. I had my second one in St. Francis. It was a room with a lot of beds. Amy Starecheski: And is St. Francis where Betances is now? Ana Alameda: No. It was Belvis. The clinic. The other side, when I live in Betances, that was the St. Joseph' ; s Hospital. Amy Starecheski: Oh! Ana Alameda: That was the other one. They install the fences--ooh! That was very hard, you don' ; t break that. That was St. Joseph' ; s Hospital. Amy Starecheski: When you first came here, what was the neighborhood like? Like what did it look like? What did it sound like? Who was here? You came to Mott Haven in 1960. Ana Alameda: 60. Amy Starecheski: Right? Yeah. Ana Alameda: It was bad before me--I don' ; t think it was bad. Because you walk in the street 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning because I remember that the Puerto Rico when they leave those shows, that you came out about 3:00 in the morning. It was a lot of bad drugs, but not that many crime or mugging that the way it was now. It was safe to walk in the street, because I live in Millbrook and it was nice walk in the elevator. You take the elevator and that' ; s it. The street too. Because I was always at St Ann' ; s Avenue to take my son for the kindergarten. My mother came when I was in the hospital, my stepmother, and she take him to the preschool. Amy Starecheski: Was your stepmother living in New York too? Ana Alameda: No. Amy Starecheski: She came from Puerto Rico? Ana Alameda: She came over--uh-huh, came only for when I had the baby. Amy Starecheski: Oh. Ana Alameda: And then I still go to work. Candida--she didn' ; t go to work and she take care of my son. It gets hard in the winter to take the kids out. Amy Starecheski: Tell me about it. Ana Alameda: Yeah. And when I start working and they have--they had the chance to put him with me. Because I had a problem with my second one. I had a person that live on the sixteenth floor to take care of him. And they sodomize him and I didn' ; t know until I made a trip to Puerto Rico. And he told me about it because they had--they was threatening him if he tell something so when I came home and I told my husband, oh my God! He was looking for the guy to kill him. It was a--not a guy--it was an eleven or thirteen-year-old, but he was mad. To Eddy, too, I had to take him to places--how you call? [Unclear]. They do rubbing in the stomach. Take all that stuff out. So from that time, I put my kids with me in the day care. I work with them. They went to St. Luke' ; s. They director give me permission to pick them up, take them to my job and they do their homework in the back. Yes. Amy Starecheski: What did you do when you found out about that? Ana Alameda: I' ; m telling you I was in Puerto Rico, I came to New York, I told Nelson. And his dad was mad but I couldn' ; t do nothing because already he was gone. He talked to the lady (screaming). Ana Alameda: My first son went to high school at Rice. He went to high school in Rice you know they closed Rice, Catholic school. From there he went to Iona. Then he moved with his girlfriend and they start working at Food Emporium, Gristedes in downtown. And UPS too. But UPS, when they move to Puerto Rico, they don' ; t make transfer. So he start working in restaurant, like waiter, he says he make more money in the tips than with the salary. In Florida he did the same thing. Here he didn' ; t find that job he' ; s with a mother in New Jersey, he' ; s working some place else, like not a waiter. My second one, he was an honor student at St. Luke' ; s. He went to Mount St. Michael Academy. From there, he went to Pace [University]. But, he mess up his life. With the wrong--crack. I don' ; t know why because I don' ; t smoke, I don' ; t--. He didn' ; t listen to nobody. He was working, but he' ; s still messing---. He start--he met Brenda, she is no wife. You know, they don' ; t get married. He has a son. When he has the son, he was in jail. I put him in jail. I said you gonna pay for what you did. Mm-mm. I don' ; t care. You are my son. He was born. He say he was gonna change. He tried to change and he start making legally to take the kids out of there but it was too late. It was--his stomach was already--the liver was already--he died 2002. No, 2004. 2002 was my accident. Car hit me. I was two months in the Lincoln and three months in the nursing home for rehabilitation. Thanks God (knocks on wood) that I' ; m walking because I was in a wheelchair. But I' ; m blessed. Thank God--. And this one, he was working in the housing. When my other son died, he start drinking, drinking, drinking. Lost his job. Twelve years in the housing. Lost his job. Now he' ; s at home, he' ; s like my--(laughs) no money, he cook. Nothing else because he' ; s more sicker than me. He' ; s younger but, when they mess their life, that' ; s it. That' ; s Marky' ; s father. And Matthew, the other son that is in Cardinal Hayes. Who raised them? Finish raising them? The other grandmother. Because when they have the problem, the ACD took it away from me. Because the problem was in my house. No matter, I raise Marky, they didn' ; t give it to me, they give it to the other Ana. And the other Ana raise him and send him to Syracuse. And he love Ana too, he love both grandmothers. I should bring you what he wrote. He wrote something, and the mother and the father (gestures). Amy Starecheski: They were crying. Ana Alameda: Oh my God. I should bring it to you. I forgot. I have it! They copy at work. And it said I owe everything to my grandmother Ana Soler and Ana Medina. What I' ; m doing is--oof! They put a knife in the chest because the parents and they didn' ; t do nothing for him, you know. He is grateful what we did for him. Next time I' ; m going to bring it to you. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I' ; d love to see that. Ana Alameda: He don' ; t know that I have that. And then he said, I owe, Joey my mentor, that my son. He always, yeah, he always loved Joey. Even the mother. Because Joey was--an outgoing person like me. This one is more antipatico, I don' ; t know, his attitude (laughs). Amy Starecheski: So your kids were growing up in this neighborhood in what the 1980' ; s? Late--like when your kids were teenagers it was the 1970s, 80s? Ana Alameda: 80? 1971 was when Mark--1980s. In 1980. When there was a blackout! A big one! They ransack all the store on 138th. There' ; s a lot of shoe stores and baby stores. The Woolworths, what is the Rite Aid now. And now it' ; s a lot of Chi--uh, Mexican. You know the store. They sell a lot of fruits and everything outside. Vegetables. Yeah. But still the buildings are there. What changed is the stores, but the buildings are still there. Amy Starecheski: You said when you were growing up you weren' ; t--when you were a teenager you weren' ; t allowed to go out and-- Ana Alameda: Oh no! Amy Starecheski: How did you handle your sons when they were teenagers? Ana Alameda: No, no, no. Huh? Amy Starecheski: How did you handle your sons when they were teenagers growing up here? Ana Alameda: List--they liked to be--I' ; m a person that like to play table games. And my neighbor has six. And they was always in my house playing Monopoly, hangman, all the one that teenagers--and by that time there was the Atari. Remember Atari? That was the first video [game]. They didn' ; t like to go out that much. Nuh uh. Because if they was going outside, I go. They never went- they were playing in the back, I was there too. Marky knows--mm-mm. Now when they call my tail, Marky. Because everywhere I go they will go with me. I even end up playing baseball in the back and they was go meet me over there. Volleyball. Volleyball. Yes. No. They don' ; t go. They have friends they used to, Eddie, bike--dirtbike. He was working in [unclear] in the bikeshop with the dirtbike. Well that' ; s it. He always come home, but the others they didn' ; t go out when they was teenager. Uh-uh. I' ; m telling you all of them in the living room playing the Monopoly. I join them! Monopoly, hangman, Scrabble. That' ; s why I like too much older stuff because I learn from them. Pictionary too (laughs). That' ; s it. Ana Alameda: And then my husband bought a billiard table. Oh, forget it! They come in to play billiards. That' ; s why! I always keep them in the house. I tried to keep things so they don' ; t have to go out. And the neighborhood was not that bad. Because before it was, you know. They like to play nice game outside. They played hockey in the back, play football in the front and they say, " ; one Mississippi, two Mississippi." ; Oh yeah. It was nice to be outside these years ago in the ' ; 80s. Now it' ; s not that bad. In my neighborhood where I live. Everybody sit in the house with the kids, playing with their video, and that not many kids. The building where I live could be a senior center. You don' ; t see, oh nobody up and down up and down, going up. Amy Starecheski: When you first moved here, what kind of people were living here? Was it a lot of people from Puerto Rico, was it is still like Irish and Italian, Jewish people? White people? Ana Alameda: Italian, Irish, Jewish. Puerto Rican--few, few, few. Very few right here in Millbrook. Because that' ; s where most of them. Where I live now, oh it' ; s a lot. And before that, 8:00 everybody going to work. You see all the people getting to work. Now it' ; s not the way it is before. The Spanish Mass was in the lower church and the English Mass was in the upper church and it was not that many Puerto Ricans. Few. Few Puerto Ricans in St Luke' ; s. That live in Millbrook. Now it' ; s a lot of Hondurian, Guatemaltecan, on Cypress Avenue. Crossing Bruckner, a lot was Spanish people living over there together with the Irish coming to St. Luke' ; s. The tuition was three dollars. Amy Starecheski: How did the Irish people respond to Puerto Rican people coming into the neighborhood? Like did-- Ana Alameda: Very nice. No problem. Very nice. We get along beautiful. They treat us like everybody, anybody. And the kids too. They were not that bullying. No. They treat us very good. And there was a lot of them in the classes of St. Luke' ; s. Everybody was Irish and Puerto Rican, a few of them. There were sisters and priests that give the--not the lay teachers at that time. It was coming a little by little. But there was a nun with the habit and the kids were afraid when they see her (laughs). They spy, you know they see that but the discipline is so good they need the Catholic school. Then they start coming: Mr. Brown, Mr. Long, [unclear] de Jesus. But also Spanish teachers start coming. The lay teachers, now when they start raising their tuition, because before none of them get paid. They just give them something. Amy Starecheski: That makes sense. I never thought of that before. Ana Alameda: I used to go to work. My time to go was 10:30 so I stay in the school giving late pass to the kids until it was time for me to go to my job because I used to work from 10:30 to 6. Because I can' ; t be doing nothing, I take the kids and stay there and doing the late pass. Sometimes I help with the selling chocolate, I do the tie all that. I told you that' ; s what I like to do things like that. Because I work with the kids. Amy Starecheski: And your job at that time was working in a daycare? Ana Alameda: Oh yeah. Everybody loved me (laughs). Amy Starecheski: Where was the daycare? Ana Alameda: Right 100--St Ann' ; s and 135th on the 165--building 165 St Ann' ; s Avenue. Pamela C. Torres. The first daycare that was here in New York. First in Prospect Avenue. Because it has the name of Pamela because the judge that work in the criminal court, her daughter died of leukemia. And he put the name of the daycare on behalf of her daughter name. Pamela Torres. He was the judge. A nice person. He used to take my kids to the coal dump. Put him in the back until he did like (gestures). He was the owner and his wife open the oven and get burned. He was a [unclear]. They moved to Florida and I don' ; t know nothing and he used to come here for the things that happen from Puerto Rico because he is in the committee. But I haven' ; t heard from him no more. Mr. Torres. They used to live in Beck Avenue. Amy Starecheski: Did you get involved in any of the clubs like your sister did? Like the-- Ana Alameda: Nope. Amy Starecheski: Like the Puerto Rican clubs? Ana Alameda: No. Ana Alameda: I didn' ; t go. She used to but not me. Because see she is a person telling me with all those people. One year they made the [unclear] with the mayor of Ponce. She was involved in all that stuff and her daughter, too. But everything, all of that finished. They used to make dances on Saturday. San Germán, la orquesta, Happy Hills. That was the orchestra of San German. Amy Starecheski: There' ; s not very many Irish people around here anymore. Ana Alameda: My neig--Oh no she died. But 560--her whole family is Puerto Rican, and she was Irish. But she died last year. Amy Starecheski: When did it-- Ana Alameda: That' ; s the only one that I could say-- Amy Starecheski: When did it start to change? Ana Alameda: Things start to change in the 90s more or less. That came all these Dominican people. Hondurian. Mexican. Because I have a lot of Hondurian in the school. Ooh! They live in Cypress. Guatemaltecan. And the Mexican. Mal de la panza. They used to tell me that: panza. Because they called the stomach panza. Ecuadorian too. Ecuadorian. Because I remember the Ecuadorian. It was like a United Nations. All the people. A few English spoken. No. A lot of Afro-American too. African. Not that many, like now. Now it' ; s a lot. But that time, no. Only a few. But now there' ; s a lot of African around here. A lot of Musulmán. I don' ; t know his last name over here. No we don' ; t have that. That changed by the 90s because I remember Marky, when he was born, he was a premature. He fit in the hand. He was so tiny, yeah! He was born in Mount Sinai Hospital. His brother, in the new Lincoln. My other grandson in Northern, by upper Bronx, Northern Hospital. But this changed a lot. But I think the future here is going to be only--believe you me--a lot of white people are coming from other places to the Bronx. Especially 134 and Bruckner. That building, it' ; s a lot of--I see them going to the supermarket, they have big dogs, and walking to the bridge. Yep. And it' ; s been changing because there' ; s a lot of nice building over there. The business, restaurant, all that. Here in 138th, still the buildings. None of them have been torn down. The one that used to be McDonald' ; s now is a Dunkin' ; Donuts. Ana Alameda: The subway? It' ; s not that bad. It used to be booth. Now they close one side only. They don' ; t have the other--the other side they don' ; t have the booth to buy the token. Oh whatever, the metro. 149th the same thing. Amy Starecheski: Why do you think people want to move to this neighborhood now? Ana Alameda: Why? Because they see that it' ; s progressing this neighborhood now. It' ; s progressing. Making new houses, big new commercial. 149th. And it' ; s changed. It' ; s changing a lot. No matter they make those big, beautiful building. You see all those beautiful building on 138th? They making that, I don' ; t know, they say it is for people that live in shelter. I don' ; t know it' ; s true. 149th by the funeral parlor is another beautiful building over there. That' ; s why people are moving here, the buildings are very beautiful. At the end, Exterior [Street], a lot of beautiful buildings over there too. I know it [unclear] but I guess they going to change it. Because they making buildings and doing all that, so people are getting--coming here. The transportation--all that. Amy Starecheski: When you first moved here, you know, I know a lot of the buildings that were here have been torn down or they' ; ve burned down, was that happening at all when you first came here or did it happen later? Ana Alameda: No. When I came none of that. They happen not even in the 80s--no. This lady that I been helping with that to make the houses. The first one was St Luke with the Nehemiah houses. The Nehemiah houses. He was the first one who start making the houses. Father Ryan make all the Nehemiah and then they start doing on St Ann' ; s the way. Some of them, that one in St Mary' ; s that was Father Ryan who start doing that. And that was--that' ; s what I' ; m saying it' ; s lately that has been changing. Because St Mary' ; s was not like the way it is now. It was very bad. I used to work and the train leave me on 143rd and cross that, ooh! It was dangerous to cross by that time. Because the job sent me to study here. They pay for it. Lehman. I took 12 credits at Lehman. Amy Starecheski: What was St. Mary' ; s like then? Ana Alameda: It was a lot of drugs. A lot of benches. You know benches are over. But the drug addict was doing that, burning it. That way they don' ; t have no more and they don' ; t want to put it again. No. And you find the people die of, ooh, killing. It was bad. It was bad by that time that I came in the ' ; 60s. It was not that many Puerto Rican but there few, there was not that many junkies in the street either. But the drugs were never finished, the drugs, ooh. Amy Starecheski: When did the buildings start to be abandoned? Ana Alameda: When people--I told you, Nehemiah houses--people start giving the down payment buying the house and then they start abandon the building. People in 147th, they start abandoning because people was moving out of New York going to New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut. That' ; s when the building get abandoned. But now that people are coming back and buying houses and living, a few of them that are. Even though my neighb--the first floor--they moved to Puerto Rico and they came back. They start moving out because they want to, I don' ; t know. They still say that [unclear] that they was getting nowhere. So they move out. And they start turning out tall, those building 149th that is AutoZone and Burger King, it was a row of nice building and people was moving to Pennsylvania. A lot of people moved to Pennsylvania. And then they start building the house and the Dominican people are buying all those houses belong to them. You don' ; t see no Puerto Ricans there. My friend that used to have the house in 145th, she moved to Puerto Rico and other people bought the house. The other one, all Dominican. A few of them is Puerto Rican now. Everything is from Santo Domingo. But that' ; s when they move out. The people want to move out. They don' ; t want their kids grow here, raise here. That' ; s what they said. And they move away. I said " ; Eh, I' ; ll stay here." ; You look at Marky, was born and raised in the South Bronx, eh? That' ; s why I say, it' ; s up [to] your parents, you encourage them to finish. And friends that used to be with the team. They said, " ; Oh my God. I wish my son--" ; Now they regret it, not sending their kid--they see Mark and the way he got all the way up. And he was raised, born and raised in the, and he has all those friends and look at the way he is now. Amy Starecheski: Your friends regret not sending their kids to Catholic school, is that what you mean? Ana Alameda: No, not the the Catholic school. The one, that one in the Little League. It' ; s the Little League with Mark. You know, it was Marky, all those, when my son was the manager in the team. And they see Marky, the way he' ; s going, that he' ; s--none of them finished! They have the girls pregnant! And they regret it now. One of the fathers said, " ; Oh I regretted that--" ; But these kids, sometimes they don' ; t want to listen. They want to follow their peers. That' ; s why they say peer pressure. Amy Starecheski: Did you ever think about leaving? Ana Alameda: New York? Amy Starecheski: Mott Haven. Ana Alameda: No. No. I' ; d rather stay here. I said, everybody knows me. Everything is close. I go to Lincoln, I walk. You know, if I go to someplace else, because I have friends that are moving out of the South Bronx, and they are afraid to go out. They stay in the house, they are walking with canes. They don' ; t go nowhere. If they walk, they are afraid, you know. And that' ; s what I' ; m thinking that is gonna happen to me if I moved to some place that I' ; d be walking and looking back because I don' ; t know the neighborhood. But here? This is my place. That' ; s why--I was--I was finish raising here. I was born in Puerto Rico but I was raised in New York. And I have no complaints. Thanks God, so far. Ana Alameda: I mean like I said, if I see something that is strange, [unclear]. He told me she lived around here, and I don' ; t--I stop by and make believe that I' ; m looking for something, I let him go by. Because first, my building is private. And the time I open they might take me over there. You know. But I' ; m very smart I say, " ; Mm, I don' ; t know, she told me that she lived down here." ; I make myself stupid, but that' ; s it. Because my neighbor, years ago, in the ' ; 92, in the same building when she was in they held up her over there. Where I live. That was years ago and I, like 1992, Nancy. You know they waiting to get, right away they took her. Because that' ; s a quiet building. It' ; s a little one. Don' ; t worry, next one you gonna do in my house, in my apartment I mean. Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) You' ; re saying-- Ana Alameda: It' ; s mine. I told myself, you know, you buy a house here, in thirty years it' ; s yours, right? So I' ; ll be here forty-five years, this is mine. It should be like that. Amy Starecheski: Do you feel secure there? Ana Alameda: Yes. Amy Starecheski: Do you worry that you could lose the apartment any way? You feel safe there? Ana Alameda: I feel safe. I feel safe. Amy Starecheski: Tell me what your everyday life is like now. What' ; s an average day for you like? Ana Alameda: In the morning, I do what I have to do. I go to the bodega, buy my coffee, because I can' ; t do the coffee at home. I don' ; t know, I' ; m already used to the coffee from that flaco. They call him flaco. Take my piece of bread, put it in the oven. Sit down and eat it, then I go out. So I got--I have to go to the bank, I have to go to pharmacy, get my refill, I do. You know, [unclear] I go to Aldi. That' ; s what I do. Then by 1:00 or 1:30 I stay home watching, ' ; Who Wants to be A Millionaire.' ; But otherwise that' ; s my life in the morning. I can' ; t be in the house. Sometimes in the afternoon I go out, but not that much. If I see my friends across the street, sitting on the bench, I go over there, I chat. Oh, if I don' ; t go, forget it, " ; What happen to you?" ; Marky know. Marcus knows how everyone--that everybody likes me because I don' ; t have no fight, no yes or no with nobody. No. I' ; m not that type of person. No way. Maybe they call me--I don' ; t know because I know they say- like myself- " ; oh no, I can' ; t be like that." ; But that' ; s the way I am. I can' ; t be fighting or arguing with nobody. No. They talking, whatever they talk, I hear. It' ; s none of my business. I don' ; t put no mouth on it. No. Fifth floor? Or this is the last floor? Amy Starecheski: This is the top. Ana Alameda: Oh. Amy Starecheski: I want to go back for a minute. You mentioned going to shows at Teatro Puerto Rico? The Puerto Rican theater? Tell me--I want to know more about what people did for fun in the neighborhood in the ' ; 60s. Ana Alameda: It' ; s a lot of cookouts. You know, people go to the park. No matter it was like that. Or to the yard or the building in the back, they do the cookout. We have a lot of parties in the house. Birthdays, bridal showers, baby showers. Not like now. That you can' ; t go nowhere. Oh no! And people used- I used- the one who used to throw a lot of parties in my house. It was fun. But the Teatro Puerto Rico was the--Puerto Rican people come from all over the place. You should see the street! When they giving--Libertad Lamarque, El Trio San Juan, Iris Chacón! Ooh! That' ; s the one that bring a lot of people, Iris Chacon. She has a big -- It' ; s like J.Lo. You know J.Lo? Oh she was like J.Lo Now. By that time. Oh! The theater get a lot. Then the restaurant in the side? It was La Rose restaurant. The people over there eating and ready to go to Teatro Puerto Rico. Because that was Iris Chacon. The J.Lo in the ' ; 80s or in the ' ; 60s. Oh my god! Oof! She was dancing and move all that. That was years ago. It was nice to walk because everybody outside in the street 3:00 in the morning. They sit in the stool in the buildings, they have the steps, right? But in the side they have the border. Everybody sit over there. No problem. And like I told you, the super was always in the building because there was a boiler room. Charcoal. But they closed Teatro Puerto Rico [unclear]. It was a lot of theaters around here, they closed them too. Ana Alameda: Why? Amy Starecheski: Because they come in the--the one that driving--the drive-in theaters. But they--remember the one in Bergen Avenue? By Boston Market, it was the National? The other side was the [name of place]. That the five of them [unclear], five and ten was over there. There' ; s a [unclear] for women. There was a--they are guilty of that and they [unclear]. When I came to this country, I saw 5s and 10s, I thought everything was five cents. That they were--I told you I forgot to tell you. You know I see oh five and ten cents Woolworths--I thought was everything was five and ten cents. Amy Starecheski: (laughs) Well that' ; s like even now--the dollar store-- Ana Alameda: Yes! Amy Starecheski: Like everything' ; s not--now it' ; s like $1.29, but everything' ; s not even $1.29. Ana Alameda: No, but the Dollar Tree--the Dollar Tree, everything is a dollar. In Dollar Tree. But that' ; s what I thought when I came here and I saw a five- five and ten- Woolworths. Because that was the first one I--I said, " ; Oh my god I--" ; . But they have a nice [unclear]. That I to pick up the kids from St. Luke' ; s and go over there and have lunch. Like in McDonald' ; s inside there they' ; ll give you hot meals. That was Woolworth' ; s years ago. In 138th. Because the other one by 161st, no. I don' ; t know about that one. There was another one that has a clock in the top too. 161st and Southern Boulevard. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about the [New York City] blackout [of 1977]? Ana Alameda: Oh my God, the blackout! I remember that they ransacked the stores. They [name of place], the baby store, all the thing. The TV' ; s, not the big TV' ; s, when there was a lot of repair. Because the TV' ; s used to have a tube that you--if they messed up, you change it! They used to steal--steal it from the store 138th. And the blackout? Ooh! No heat, no air conditioning. Because most of the time was for the summer. For June and July. That was one. I was living in Millbrook. One of them. The other was when I was living in Betances. That was the biggest one. It was two or three days that we have the blackout. My son used to bring me to the car with the air conditioning in the car. The explosion--what I lived through, there was an explosion because of the heat and the snow that blow out the top of the thing 144th, broke the windows and everything. That was another thing they sent us to the senior center because they close everything. We had to be in the senior center for the air and food, whatever and Red Cross came to give blankets and everything. Because everything happening- but no more, like they [unclear]. Then the airplane that fell in the- I told you? St Mary' ; s rock over there, that little plane that fell about 1967, something like that. That was two years after Kennedy was killed. Killed in 1963. Amy Starecheski: Do you have any memories of the Young Lords in this neighborhood? Ana Alameda: They talk about that gang. But no, I was not aware that much of the gang. No--no interesting to me. Now it seems that the MS-13. But it was, now they still exist, the Young Lords. They was Puerto Rican kids, too, in the Young Lords. And they was in the open but I don' ; t know around here. But I hear people talking about that. But I wasn' ; t around [it] that much. I don' ; t know why. I didn' ; t feel so scared about that. Because now is more harmer than before. Now this--and started killing the--if you don' ; t do what they do, they kill you. But I didn' ; t hear about that, that I know. There was the Young Lords and then there was the Guardian Angel, remember? Sliwa, remember? With the red beret that they control the South Bronx on the street and the subway. That what happened. They, when they hear that Curtis Sliwa formed that group, of the young--the Guardian Angels. Amy Starecheski: What did you think about it? Ana Alameda: I think it was good because they respected them. They respect those people that was dressing with the red and the beret. I remember there was a police when I came here, it was a big, tall ooh! My God. A police officer. He was O' ; Hara, Michael O' ; Hara. And the people was afraid of that man. They don' ; t want--that' ; s why they see the people now, you see the police, O' ; Hara! O' ; Hara is coming, O' ; Hara is coming! Because that was the police that was very firm and that was when I came here. They was afraid because the people were selling drugs. That was--what' ; s the name they used to say in the corner? They said that the people was afraid. O' ; Hara' ; s coming! O' ; Hara' ; s coming! Because that police was, everybody, now they don' ; t respect the police. No more. They used to sell those [unclear]. That means that they were selling that. Even Marky my neighbor daughter heard that [unclear] (laughs) because that what they hear every time we pass through 138th and Brook Avenue. That was their corner, the hot spot for them. But it was not that bad like now. You know because now they taking [unclear] robbing and mugging elderly just because of the cell phone. The cell phone, I told them don' ; t take it out! What? But I remember that--[unclear] (laughs). Amy Starecheski: For people who are listening to this in the future and don' ; t know what that means, can you explain what it means? Ana Alameda: That was a way to say to people that they were selling the drugs. And that means [unclear] That means that they have that, you know. The people they do the transaction, give them money, keep walking. Even cars from upstate New York come in and get the drugs from them. Amy Starecheski: And so just to make sure I understand, you feel like the neighborhood is more dangerous now than it was then? You feel less safe here now? Ana Alameda: For me it' ; s not dangerous. I thought I told, I say, because I hear everything that is happening in Brooklyn and compared to Brooklyn, this place is safety. Comparing to Brooklyn, the South Bronx is more safe than any other borough, even Queens. The Bronx, I don' ; t think is that bad. Not [unclear]. Telling you, Brooklyn, everything that happening in the street of Brooklyn: shooting, killing, you don' ; t hear that here. Especially here in the South Bronx that they said is the worst, I don' ; t think so. Nope. Not to me. And I was raised here. But I like it and I don' ; t move so far. They take me from the cemetery (laughs). Amy Starecheski: There' ; s something else I wanted- oh. You said that your son Joey, right, that you got--you sent him to jail? Ana Alameda: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Tell me about how that happened. Ana Alameda: Because I used--I was the one that close the job. Make sure that the store was closed and I was the one that close, I put everything. And I had the keys, and he took me the keys. And he opened the [unclear] and I have the money for the pictures, you know the pictures they take the kids, and he took it. Victor Torre, he said, " ; No, don' ; t so that." ; I said, " ; no, Mr Torre, you have to pay for that." ; I send him to jail. When the police came to my house, say, he had the picture when he graduate from Mt St Michael with honor. And he said, " ; Is that Joey?" ; Because the police always live in Mt St Michael. They knew him. I say, " ; Yes." ; But that lesson! I love my son but he has to learn. Robbing from my job? He robbed from me, I don' ; t care. But from the job, the money that I have in the back, in the closet? And Mr. Torre I said, " ; No, no no no, Mr Torre." ; Because he used to take Joey to court and to see what' ; s going, happening in the--but still I said, " ; no." ; And they were so good with me that they didn' ; t fire me. They keep me the job. It was another one--bigger one, he didn' ; t for me to be out of a job, no. That' ; s why I' ; m- I' ; m very grateful for that. I was there thirty-five years. He pardoned him. He go to the dance. We did the banquet and he was there. He, Joey, you know they pardoned Joey because he know it wasn' ; t him, it was the drugs. He was too much in the crack. That was--he was using crack. The worker, whose name is Jackson, her daughter was doing that and they fire her. And I said I' ; m lucky that they kept me the job. Amy Starecheski: What was it like around here when the crack epidemic was happening? Ana Alameda: They used to take those juices, the little juice they have for kids. They open it, with the- they put aluminum foil in the top, they make a hole, and they had the drug in there. And it was very bad, whatever you see in the corner, oh! You see that. Now? It' ; s not that [unclear]. Now is the- they do that where I live. They put the leg and they inject. But before that epidemic was that crack, argh. I think that was the worst one. That little dose with the white one (claps hands) ooh! They put him like--he even push me, that' ; s what I said, they make him do the thing that they never do before. And he was one of the best- better than that Eddie. And when he died, and he was very sick, that Ana has to go to the house and talk to him because he was--I don' ; t know. He lost it. He violent! So he locked in the--sent me to Joey, esto este, and he calmed down but [unclear]. Brenda was terrible. You know, violent, he can' ; t sleep because the way he was. Then, one day he woke up on Sunday and he said, " ; Brenda, don' ; t go to work today. Stay with me." ; So she stay with him, but he get worst. So she put him in the hospital. And where they have tubes. Then they call me, he said, " ; I give him only 48 hours to live." ; He didn' ; t last 48. The next day, he died. He died! And I said to myself, when I was going to his house every day for this problem, I said, " ; God, forgive me, but take him, because the whole family is suffering. Take him." ; And I think--I always said, " ; forgive me," ; that way that he went to the hospital and that' ; s it. Because you see him, the only one that control him was Ana. I don' ; t know, she had that [unclear] and they can talk and be with him. But, God forgive me, but he is in peace now, and we are in peace. Because you know the trip--I have to go every day over there after school because I was not working here I was in St. Pius. I was retired but I can' ; t be without doing nothing. I went to St Pius to work. But their school program I finish I go with Marky and Kenny. Matthew was not born yet because when that happened Matthew was two months, when the ACD come to my house. They give it to him because he was sick so he can handle no more [unclear] when they give him to Ana. But it was hard every day trying to talk to him, you know. But he was good. He was a good father and a stepfather because Brenda with her son, he was taking care of him. But the drugs kill him. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m gonna make sure I understand, so he was living with you, and ACD came and they took the-- Ana Alameda: Marky? Yeah. Amy Starecheski: They took the kids away because-- Ana Alameda: Yeah. Marky was living with me. And the mother and the father, but they always argue but that time she put herself in the window, she want to kill herself. Then somebody called the police. I went downstairs with Mark. I went downstairs with Mark and Matthew because I don' ; t want them to see what' ; s going to happen in my apartment. The police came and they press charges. I don' ; t know, they talk to them. The next day, a school day, I went to school. In the school, they took him. They went to school and took. They went to ACD and they, Brenda and Joey because Ana--I don' ; t know what happened--Ana couldn' ; t take him. They, he wants to go, Marky wants to go with Joey. So they give him to Joey and Brenda. But, sooner or later he was very sick, so it was too much, so ACD contact Ana and they gave it to Ana. It' ; s a lot of things that I' ; ve been going through. And I tell you, I' ; m blessed. Because all this problem that I' ; ve been going through, but thanks God, I' ; m here. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about your about your faith? Ana Alameda: My faith? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Your religion. Like what does it mean to you? Ana Alameda: Oh a lot because God always with me. Always with me, God. Because whatever happen, I say God, forgive me if I do something wrong but, I' ; m very--he' ; s with me all the time. I' ; m not alone. He' ; s with me. Because I' ; m good with him. I may not confess, I may not have communion, but God is always with me. My faith is--mmm--too much. Very much. I' ; m not a--I' ; m Catholic. I go to church on the day that I have to go, on Sunday. I don' ; t know because I don' ; t belong to Sagrado Corazon, to Legion de Maria, all that stuff, not me. Because to have- God tell me, I don' ; t need to belong to all those things. I' ; m not that type of person. Ana could do it because Ana had that kind--that she can talk. Because this is [unclear] people, they go to the houses, you know. And they talk to people and that' ; s why Ana is like that. And she been there since she was at St Pius. They go to the houses, and when people have problem, they know how to talk to them and involve the people in to have faith. I just go to church, but that wherever I go, God with me. He don' ; t leave me. And if I have problem I' ; m in the night time I say, " ; God, please." ; I pray, I do, for everything. I pray for this one here in my house, [unclear], because he been sick too, but he don' ; t want to admit it, you understand? If you admit it, they can solve your problem, but [unclear] he go to the doctor he don' ; t say the truth: " ; oh, no I don' ; t drink, or I do only on-" ; Oh, no, no, no, say the truth. And then you talk to him, right away he' ; s (sound effect). That' ; s why I don' ; t want to talk, I say nothing. He' ; s afraid of Ana, because Ana (sound effect) say the thing the way it is. Amy Starecheski: Who are your best friends right now? Ana Alameda: Well, Ana. Because she' ; s in the healthcare she' ; s my proxy too. Everything, come with Ana, she' ; s with me. I had to go to the doctor and I had to like last month, they were doing something for me because of my bones and in case something happen, she has to be with me when I was visiting, when they shot me. Yeah. That my best friend. Those are people that you know, you know, we call conocidas, that we talk and--we' ; re best friends, Ana. No matter her daughter and my son don' ; t get along, that' ; s their problem (laughs). Amy Starecheski: Is there anything I should have asked you and I didn' ; t? Ana Alameda: I don' ; t know. You could look on your paper and remember, the agenda (laughs). Because I don' ; t remember. Amy Starecheski: I think I' ; ve asked most of the things that I wanted to ask. Is there anything that you wanted to say more about that you didn' ; t get a chance? Ana Alameda: Let me see if I can remember because when I was in the house I said this and that but (claps hands). Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) We can do more later too so if you think of something later we can, but if you think of something now we have all the time you need. Ana Alameda: I don' ; t know. Amy Starecheski: I' ; ll think for a minute too if there' ; s anything else I wanted to make sure to ask about. Ana Alameda: That on Sunday I go to play Bingo (laughs). Bingo! My son say, " ; Go [Spanish]." ; (Laughs) you know the old people gossiping. Amy Starecheski: Where do you go? Ana Alameda: Go 143rd in the building--Betances building too. 143rd, the lady that do bingo, she cook and you know, I do it. She cook good because she used to cook in restaurant and then years ago she used to cook in Sy Mary' ; s Park and sell food over there. But that' ; s you know, I take myself, nothing to do on Saturdays. I go out with Ana, I guess tomorrow we are going to eat at Olive Garden, she going to take the other friend. It' ; s three Anas. Three Anas. When we travel, they call us the Golden Girls (claps hands). Because we travel together to Florida, whatever, and we' ; re Ana Soler, Ana Medina and Ana Gaston. And they call the Golden Girls. So she always take, for Mother' ; s Day, she take us to it, she took me already. Last, two weeks ago. And now it' ; s the other Ana' ; s turn because that day she couldn' ; t go. So now she' ; s doing it tomorrow. But I have fun with Ana because everything--we go always together, travel together. Yeah, Marky went with us. We always take Mar--yeah. Mark. We went to Las Vegas, no Marky though, when we went to Las Vegas. Me and Ana. Now we' ; re planning to go to Puerto Rico, I said Ana, I want to go to Puerto Rico. We went to Puerto Rico: Mark, Matthew, Ana, Marky' ; s friend--Mark' ; s friend Wally. We have a lot of fun because they--he' ; s Dominican, Marky' ; s friend. And we used to go to restaurant oh my God that Mofongo ooh! And every night we go to a casino (claps hands). And the last night Ana hit the jackpot with three thousand. The last night that- next day we would come home. Yeah. But we always together, we always together. Amy Starecheski: When did you two first meet? Ana Alameda: When they--Freddy and Joey was in the Little League team. And because she like sports and I like it too. We always go to the baseball game and that' ; s how we met. Because oh no, I love--did Marky play? We go to Marky' ; s game. He used to be in [name of place] go to the track. We used to go to Columbia over there in Armory, we went over there too! We both, yes. Amy Starecheski: Where did they play Little League, where were the games? Ana Alameda: By Cardinal Hayes, that park, St. Mary' ; s, now it' ; s already not good. But he used to play in different parks and we always be there. Always there. Because I like baseball, I like- I used to play softball when I was growing up in Puerto Rico. And I like it. I always like it. They' ; re playing tonight- the Yankees and the Mets (laughs and claps hands)! And I' ; m a Mets fan! Oh My God! Amy Starecheski: I just was talking about- talking about this with Maxi today. He said he' ; s a Mets fan, too! Ana Alameda: Yeah! And the sister is a Yankees fan. All her families are Yankees and he' ; s a Met. I' ; m a Met! Oh my God. I came here in 1960. They, there it was the program. It was a project. They called the program Project. They tear it down to make a--the team that was playing over there, they teared down that park and then they made the program building. From that they moved to Queens. And I remember all the baseball players from 1962. Because I' ; m always a Mets fan it was Elio Chacon Number 7, first base. It was [unclear], 20, in the left field. 21, [unclear], in the center field, [name of person], Number 4 in the right field. I remember the Mets. When I come to the building, he said, my goodness you are a Mets fan. Yeah! Because I follow the Mets everywhere (laughs)! I don' ; t know why because my mother don' ; t like the Yankees and that turned me. She said the Yankees don' ; t like Puerto Ricans. Don' ; t like colored people. And it was true. First one was Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige--the Yankees didn' ; t want it (laughs). Amy Starecheski: When you travel and you tell people you' ; re from the Bronx or from the South Bronx, what do they think? Ana Alameda: Oh! They say, " ; Oh my God, you--." ; I say, " ; We' ; ve been living for so many years. What' ; s the problem?" ; " ; Oh, but they have the bad--" ; I say, " ; That was for you. But you have to live in the place to see if it' ; s true what they talking to you about that. Because you can' ; t follow what they said. You have to live in the place." ; They say, " ; oh, yes." ; When we went to Las Vegas: " ; You coming from the Bronx?" ; " ; Yes." ; They say, " ; oh my God, how it is?" ; I said, " ; Very good! We still here!" ; Because people, you know, even when the St. Luke' ; s made the banquet and all those people years ago came, they was surprised the way they see the change in the Bronx. About the buildings. And they was walking around here and nothing. They say, " ; Oh! I feel safe over there." ; Of course! They was walking all over the place here, from Texas, California, Florida. Oh my God! All from the West, most of them came from the West. Because that' ; s when the people to start moving out and they start getting those buildings after the Bruckner Express, it' ; s a lot of people that was in St. Luke' ; s, they move out. But they say the change was the buildings. But they said, " ; it seems safe. Like nothing happened here." ; But because it was all over the--talking about. Right now, when I heard about Brooklyn, and then my friend moved to Brooklyn because I' ; m telling you--in the South, my mother' ; s family lived in the South Brooklyn, Williamsburg, all that--yeah. But it was not like that either. It was nice. Amy Starecheski: I thought of one more thing I wanted to ask you. You were talking about the Nehemiah houses? Ana Alameda: Nehemiah houses. Amy Starecheski: Nehemiah houses? Ana Alameda: Yes. Amy Starecheski: When they were building those, what did people think? Was there anyone who--like yeah. What did people think when they started building them? Ana Alameda: They was happy because they are think they going to have the house. But when they start building in St. Mary' ; s they get a little, you know, doubted about it because Ana Alameda: But when they start building in St. Mary' ; s, they get a little doubted about it because the fame that St. Mary' ; s has. But when they start living and coming they see the difference. Yeah. Even though St Anns all the way to 163rd, St Anns that behind the church or St Peter and St Paul, those are Nehemiah houses. And that was a bad, you know, the neighborhood. And now it' ; s beautiful. People, you know, they change. But the people when they first--St. Mary' ; s was--People was-- You know, because, St. Mary ooh! Ooh Cypress, Jackson Avenue, and look at the way they now. Behind that is a buidling for homeless--St. Luke' ; s, the side. And, I don' ; t know you remember Father Ryan used to have the homeless sleeping the in the gym. Nothing happened. All the homeless was sleeping in the gym of St. Luke' ; s because Father Ryan used to let them--and they was coming out and no- nothing happened over there. Not even for the kids. Nothing. The parents didn' ; t complain. Because now they complain: " ; Oh! Because--" ; Nope. Parents didn' ; t complain that they have the shelter, the people, homeless sleeping in the back. Father Ryan was very nice guy. That' ; s why they put the street the name of him. Everybody' ; s missing him. Amy Starecheski: What kind of people moved into those houses? Ana Alameda: What? Amy Starecheski: The Nehemiah Houses. What kind of people moved into them? Ana Alameda: Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican. The Nehemiah Houses are Puerto Rican. Here they have Dominican but Nehemiah Houses were Puerto Rican. They called that--what did they? The funding that he got that for making the houses. Because my friend, she didn' ; t buy it. Not my friend, my co-worker. Her husband was in the--in the--thing of the St. Luke' ; s, for the Mass and. And he didn' ; t buy one and he regret it. He regret it. Amy Starecheski: What did you have to do to get to buy one? Ana Alameda: Oof. Well with Father Ryan because he knew you, he would do it, but then you have to go through a lot of processes: the credit, the down payment. Most of these people were parishioners from St. Pius--from St. Luke' ; s. That' ; s what happened. The Nehemiah Houses, all of them are parishioners from St. Luke' ; s. And with the help of Father Ryan they did it. That' ; s why my co-worker' ; s husband regretted not buying one of those houses. That what I said because when they said about St. Mary' ; s, they don' ; t want to buy it, now he regret it. The way it turned out to be. He bought one in Intervale. Amy Starecheski: And the people who moved into those houses, did they get involved in the neighborhood? Ana Alameda: Yeah. They get along because I see, I walk over there. Because I know a lot of them. The kid went to school, one of my co-worker do their secretary. They are get along very well and everybody has neat houses. If you see them, you are walking over there, you see how neat they are and how clean and everything. Yeah. They [unclear] and everybody cooperate well with the other. Marky' ; s roommate--classmate, he went to Harvard. He bought one of those Nehemiah Houses. One of the first one- one second- Christopher. I remember when he made the debate in St. Pius. Christopher' ; s--Marky--believe you me, he going to Harvard. And even though in the debate that Marky--what he talked about, he won the debate (laughs). You know, they thought that he was going--that he was going to win that debate--no Marky won. They went together to our house and everybody vote for Mark to be the president of the class. And he went to a [unclear] but everybody- he was the president- he was involved in the Channel 12--the challenge that was in Channel 12. Marky was doing [unclear]. He was very out- even though when he graduate they call him to jump in [unclear]. He now is--he regret not taking that job. Because everyone always tell [unclear] And Marky was not an easy guy. Oh no! He got a lot of trouble. And all with me and Ana always in [unclear]. And he was president, he made that Channel 12 when he wrote that letter that the father--he did it on Channel 12. Because he said everything! He--I recall that when you have something inside you, you want to- that bothering you, you want to take that out, that' ; s what he did. Only when he was very- like something bothering him, you know like the problem from the past, but when he put all this stuff out, and wrote that paper that the teacher put a very good mark on, you know, that made him more outgoing because he put all that out. In Spanish it' ; s [Spanish] (sigh of relief). Next time I will show you the paper. I know you' ; ll want to read it. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I want to see it. I think that was the last thing I wanted to ask, was there anything more that you want to say? Ana Alameda: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t remember now Maybe later on. Amy Starecheski: Ok. We can do it later. Thank you so much for taking the time to-- Ana Alameda: Thank you for you. Thank you for the book. Amy Starecheski: --speak with me. Oh, you' ; re welcome. I hope you like it. Ana Alameda: Because oh my God! Oof! Let' ; s see what Ana--" ; Ooh lend it it me lend it to me!" ; Amy Starecheski: Now you guys can read it and discuss (laughs). Ana Alameda: Oh my God. Amy Starecheski: Alright I' ; m gonna turn this off. Thank you again so much. Ana Alameda: Ok. That' ; s when I bought this--when we went to Olive Garden. Amy Starecheski: Oh (laughs). audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Alameda_Ana_20180608.xml Alameda_Ana_20180608.xml
Location
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Bronx, NY
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Title
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Ana Alameda Oral History Interview
Date
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2018-06-08
Format
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audio
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview Ana Alameda discusses her experience as a migrant to New York City from Puerto Rico as a child in the 1960’s, the way the city has changed over time, and raising children in the city. Particular detail is given to her neighborhood’s drug epidemic and recovery, especially raising children throughout it. She also discusses her involvement with Puerto Rican cultural events in New York City over time, including the former Puerto Rican Theater and Christmas celebrations.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Danny Chervoni
OHMS Object
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Chervoni_20180314.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 May 14, 2018 Chervoni_20180314 02:06:03 Columbia Oral History MA Program Danny Chervoni Amy Starecheski Chervoni_20180314 1:|25(9)|76(9)|89(9)|102(4)|114(6)|130(1)|143(13)|159(5)|173(14)|187(7)|203(4)|220(5)|229(2)|244(11)|258(2)|269(2)|283(11)|298(9)|315(13)|329(8)|344(5)|360(7)|374(2)|387(2)|401(11)|421(2)|434(5)|448(11)|465(11)|478(6)|491(8)|508(11)|521(14)|538(7)|553(9)|566(14)|582(3)|595(15)|611(9)|637(5)|655(9)|674(2)|684(2)|695(9)|710(14)|722(9)|736(8)|749(6)|762(1)|771(10)|787(2)|798(11)|810(6)|819(12)|839(8)|851(4)|864(10)|877(14)|892(3)|903(6)|912(9)|924(6)|935(6)|944(14)|962(14)|975(10)|988(8)|1002(2)|1018(6)|1035(14)|1048(14)|1064(2)|1075(5)|1085(8)|1099(4)|1115(6)|1124(13)|1133(8)|1148(9)|1159(1)|1179(1)|1192(3)|1202(11)|1216(8)|1227(10)|1238(5)|1252(16)|1270(7)|1282(7)|1299(17)|1309(3)|1323(9)|1336(11)|1350(2)|1363(12)|1395(3)|1421(2)|1433(7)|1455(5)|1466(4)|1499(13)|1513(12)|1525(16)|1538(4) 0 https://soundcloud.com/oralhistory_columbia/chervoni_20180314 SoundCloud OHMA.Columbia audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/472489755& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Discussion of crafts Collects beer bottle caps and other supplies to make crafts 17 77 Introductions Introductions, pronunciation of name, date, project 17 117 Childhood Born in Brooklyn, one of 11 children, father worked in Manhattan in a hotel and mother was a stay-at-home mother. Before moving to the Bronx, used to live by the river in Brooklyn, went to the parks and a Catholic school. Played with, trained and ate pigeons. childhood ; family ; home ; pigeons 17 273 Moved to the Bronx, helped father shovel coal After family informed them there was an open apartment in the Bronx, the family moved. Father worked as a Super in a building, mother worked in a hospital. Used to help father shovel coal into the boiler and take the garbage out of the building in which he worked. Bronx ; family ; father 17 361 Teenage years Played basketball in the park, had to be home before the street lights came on, would hide and listen to Doowop music and get in trouble for staying out too late. doowop ; music ; park 17 410 Childhood without technology and with little money Enjoyed childhood without technology: flew kites, picked berries, says children respected adults, children would be resourceful to build their own toys and bikes, etc. Says there is more crime now than in his childhood. Climbed fences, played in backyards, an old man would shoot marbles on a slingshot at them for stealing peaches off of his tree. childhood ; crime ; technology 17 586 School experience, decision to drop out of high school Played trombone in school band, took a printing class and made school newspaper, discussion of making the newspaper. In high school was on the swim team, dropped out of school in 11th grade. Would walk over to the girls' school during high school years. Didn't know what he wanted to do after he dropped out. newspaper ; public school ; school 17 705 Moving to North Carolina and joining the Marine Corps After dropping out of high school, mother sent him to North Carolina to live with his brother who worked for the Marines. While babysitting nephews, got recruited into the Marine Corps. Worked for 3 years in the Marine Corps before being dishonorably discharged because he got into a fight with the captain. Moved back to the Bronx. Marine Corps 17 787 Becoming a drug dealer and a drug user and how that affected his family After moving back to the Bronx, friends were drug dealers. Seemed appealing because they were making money. Didn't run from the police like his friends. Realized police didn't bother him because he looked like a Marine with his haircut, etc. Eventually became a drug dealer himself in the '80s. After a while got caught by the police and going in and out of jail. Drugs brought a lot of money to the neighborhood, but also bad times. Friends in jail, moving away or getting killed. Began using drugs himself, kids taken away from him. Using $1,000/day. Oldest brother raised his kids. Kids are now all employed. Bronx ; drug addiction ; drug dealing ; drugs 17 1022 Overcoming drug addiction Mother took him to the hospital, tried detoxes. Mother moved to Alabama and he followed her there. Withdrawal was grueling, locked himself in a room for 2 months. Mother took care of him during this time. detox ; drug addiction ; drugs 17 1139 Working after addiction, discussion of career and retirement Returned to New York, worked at a company for 17 years until they closed down making reproductions of antiques. Did gift shows, set up a booth to sell things. Also worked for a lady named Mia on the weekends making Christmas ornaments. When the antique company shut down, worked solely for Mia for 15 years. Now, things are being imported from elsewhere, but back then people used to care about items being made in the USA. Now, it's difficult to find a job that pays what you're worth. Eventually decided to retire. In retirement, cares for Brook Park. antiques ; career ; retirement ; work 17 1301 Brook Park, importance of community spaces In retirement, takes care of Brook Park. Remembers having barbecues before it was Brook Park. Have to give to the community because if not, we lose the experience and history of it. Important to preserve spaces for future generations. community ; parks 17 1369 Discussion of parents and old television Father was tall with dark skin, mother was very short and chubby. Had a black and white TV, and father used to tell him to put a multi-colored piece of plastic over it. Remote control was very noisy. Father worked in a hotel, mother didn't work until they moved to the Bronx. Both parents from Puerto Rico. Mother was adopted, but was never interested in family history. Born in '56. family ; father ; mother ; parents ; Puerto Rico ; technology ; television 17 1554 Growing up poor with 8 brothers and 2 sisters Says they were survivors growing up. No money for new sneakers ; wore ill-fitting, hand-me-down socks. Sisters only had to share between themselves. Fought often with siblings, got public assistance food like blocks of cheese, can of pork, powdered milk and eggs. Mother would make 4 gallons of milk out of a can of powdered milk. family ; poverty ; public assistance ; siblings 17 1678 Moving to the Bronx and sense of community ; comparison to the Bronx today Used to travel between Williamsburg and the Bronx before moving to visit cousins. Upon arrival, less cars, more kids playing in the streets, felt more like a community than where he was coming from. Feels that kids today in the Bronx don't have that same sense of community, partly due to technology. Bronx ; community 17 1780 Things he did for fun as a kid, importance of parks Would build their bikes, carried tools around to make and repair their own bikes, played with pigeons, played on rooftops and in parks on monkey bars. Parks are good for everyone in a community. childhood ; parks 17 1869 A day in Danny's life as a kid Siblings often fought in the mornings, did not brush his teeth or comb his hair in the mornings, would go to school without adult supervision and then sneak into the park with his school clothes. If caught, he would beaten. Would play games in the park. Tried to sneak and finish homework in school. 17 2017 Apartment in which he grew up, going over to his friends' apartments No coat racks in his friends' parents' apartments. Threw coats on the floor, drank out of multi-colored, re-purposed metal cups. Would go to all of his friends' parents' apartments and would go to different parks, etc. 17 2133 Childhood memories: walking along coals, swimming in the river with eels, picking fruit As a child, he and his friends would hide their bikes to prevent them from being stolen, and would go to where a coal company used to be and walk along the coals. They did not know that there were eels in the water with them. He and his friends swam in their underwear in the river. One time, a boy swam with his pants on and got stuck on a boxspring and his brother-in-law saved him. People would dump things in the river. Would catch fish and pick berries and other fruits to bring home and eat in the river. Discussion of where the river is. childhood ; coal ; river 17 2411 Coal heating system in the building in which he grew up Filled a wheelbarrow with coal and put it into the boiler, had to go through the neighborhood to find wood and paper to start a fire and get the furnace burning. Would get in trouble if the boiler turned off, sometimes he would forget to add the coal and it would turn off. 17 2514 The neighborhood in his childhood, working at his mother's grocery store as a child, memories of childhood There were ice cream parlors, pubs and guys pushing carts. Not too many bodegas, but his mother had one on 141st Street at which he worked. Had a dog in the basement that he would feed and would share food with his friends. Mostly Puerto Rican and Black kids in the school. Hated school as a kid. bodega ; childhood 17 2775 How drugs changed the Bronx, comparison before and after drugs Building Supers would give empty apartments to drug dealers as people were moving out. Some landlords had their buildings burned for the insurance money. After fires, the city began knocking buildings down as well so that they wouldn't be re-used by dealers, addicts, homeless people. When he first moved to the Bronx, all of the apartments were full, there were ice cream parlors, rented videos, played pool, etc. Neighborhood could have changed because of politicians, corrupt police, or something else. There were a lot of empty lots after buildings were burnt down. People are now used to seeing the violence. Bronx ; drugs 17 3197 The Building Projects Doesn't remember what was there before the projects, but remembers the bulldozers and construction sites when the projects were being built. Remembers people loved the projects. A friend said that when we go to war, the projects will be concentration camps, because there is only one way in and one way out. Everyone wanted to move in. People in apartments and projects mixed. Some ethnic groups such as the Irish moved out. Remembers running up to the roof. 17 3376 Comparison of life in his childhood to life now, gangs then and now Feels that older people are less friendly now, people socialize less and care less for others. Gangs used to be territorial but respected each other, initiation was less violent. Now gangs are more violent. Thought that the Black Panthers and Young Lords were cool and had respect for them as a child. 17 3489 Young Lords and Black Panthers, racial discrimination and police violence, white people moving out Thought that the Young Lords and Black Panthers were cool for fighting against the government and police racial discrimination. Has faced racial discrimination at the hands of the police. White people began leaving the neighborhood possibly because more Blacks and Hispanics were moving in or the neighborhood was getting bad. He would probably move out as well because he wants the best for him and his family. 17 3619 " ; The Bronx is up for sale:" ; Gentrification and the changing Bronx today Important to value the Bronx's history, judges people by the way they treat him, wants everyone to share the space. Rich people want to move in because all they think about is money and would rather take it over and have them move out. Would rather have no money and be happy than have a lot of money and be miserable. Neighborhood began getting better, meaning it is being taken care of. Vacant businesses are being reopened about 10 years ago. Eventually as the neighborhood gets better, people ruining the neighborhood begin moving out. Bronx ; gentrification ; neighborhood ; social class ; wealth 17 3857 Returning to the Bronx after sobriety ; discussion of living after addiction (wife, jail) Tried to save people from drug addiction after returning, but ultimately was not able to save many. Decided to remove himself from the drug environment. Decided he did not want to go back to jail, worked and used heroin for some time, but then realized he wanted to quit altogether. For a while had a difficult time sleeping. Has been with his wife since 1990 since he came out of the penitentiary. Bronx ; drugs ; sobriety 17 4069 Meeting his wife and their relationship Grew up with her brothers, she's 7 years older. Sometimes he would go to their house and her brother wouldn't be home, and she would care for him if he had an asthma attack. Says if it wasn't for her, he wouldn't be here because she cared for him during his drug addiction. 17 4192 Decision to leave for Alabama to get sober, making arrangements to leave Had to explain to wife that he needed to leave to get sober. Asked his boss for the money for a plane ticket and for him to please hold his job for him while he was gone. Boss was very understanding. Left for Alabama with a one-way ticket, and never went back to drugs. 17 4266 AIDS Epidemic ; drug addiction as a societal problem Knew people who died of AIDS and were misdiagnosed, people did not know about the disease yet. " ; People were dying like flies." ; Got sober in 1993, has helped friends overcome addiction and others he could not help. Would rather commit suicide than become a drug addict again. The addicts in the neighborhoods are homeless, stealing, hungry. The government is not helping. At first AIDS was not considered a disease. Now that White kids are becoming addicted to pills and drugs, addiction is considered a disease, the government is more willing to give money to help. drug addiction ; drugs 17 4439 Brook Park and the garden Remembers when there were buildings in what is now Brook Park. Bulldozers removed matchbox houses and buildings, and he used to pretend he was a construction worker as a child, helping to take them down. Eventually saw a White person in the park planting, then more people began coming. People were planting things in the park, beginning a garden. Then farmer's markets began coming. Slowly the park began changing. The playground equipment is important, but values the garden. It allows people to grow their own food and is good for the environment. Bronx ; community ; garden ; park 17 4848 Matchbox houses One day saw trailers coming into the neighborhood, began stacking them on top of each other and he realized they were there to stay as houses. Each were $3-400,000, probably more now. They are low-quality, and you can hear everything through the walls. They have a fake brick facade. The new ones seem to be upgraded. There are a great deal of these houses, but so few trees. The company buys all of the land from the city and does what it wants with the land. In reality, much of the housing is unattainable for the residents. People who live in the houses don't really mix with the others in the neighborhood. Bronx 17 5187 Wealthy people buying out properties A Black man once passed out a business card to him saying that his boss was buying properties. Many wealthy people try to buy out properties to build houses to move in. 17 5268 Old friends in the neighborhood using drugs ; different drugs of today Has some old friends in the neighborhood that are still addicted to drugs, says drugs today are different than when he was a drug addict. 17 5357 Music and being a DJ ; the state of the public schools No more music classes offered at his middle school, used to play trombone there. A brother always listened to music and that inspired him to become a DJ. Was inspired by DJ's such as Run DMC and Grand Master Flash. Would create an artificial DJ booth at people's houses, played hooky to listen to music. Began to collect his own equipment, his brother grew up around 'The Wiz Kids' DJ's. Music soothes the mind Bronx ; DJ ; music 17 5615 DJ's in the parks such as Grand Master Flash Everyday growing up there would be DJ's in the parks, remembers going from park to park listening to different DJ's. People did it for fun, to show off equipment, drawing a crowd. Now it is all about money, it's a big business 17 5704 Any other questions? ; different memories of places and how they've changed from living in the neighborhood for so long 17 5881 Memories of Brook Avenue ; the former Puerto Rican Theatre The Puerto Rican Theatre is now gone, remembers sneaking in. Remembers listening to concerts at the parks and rolling joints in front of police. 17 5965 Police on the beat vs. police in cars When police walked the streets people had some sort of relationship with them. Now that they are in cars there is a distance. Bronx ; police ; race 17 6001 Being white vs. being of color in the neighborhood ; different races in the neighborhood and closing Starecheski says she never feels invisible in the neighborhood as a White woman, Chervoni tries to welcome White people into the community garden. Chervoni can tell when people are looking to buy out properties and displace people, realizes not every white person is looking to gentrify. 17 CHERVONI: Try to get a million dollars for it. And, then, one time, my friend , I was making these, and my friend gave me a box, a wooden box with beads, and shells, and feathers. And I said, cool. And I started making more. I said, you know what? I might as well make some. So I have a whole bunch of that stuff at home. Eventually, I' ; ll get busy and start making. AMY STARECHESKI: So you made that? CHERVONI: Yes. Yes. I put a-- I got to make some more. I said, eventually, I' ; ll make some for kids. And I' ; ll just give it to them. AMY STARECHESKI: I forgot to tell you. Remember you were saying, we should try to collect beer bottle caps? CHERVONI: [INAUDIBLE] AMY STARECHESKI: I got these ones that had fish on them that are really cool. CHERVONI: Oh, yeah? AMY STARECHESKI: I' ; m going to get-- yeah, I saved them for you. CHERVONI: I started drilling into them. I said, there' ; s got to be a better way. So I Googled it. Like, Google is the best. So they got a beer cap or soda cap puncher. You can actually punch the hole in it, and you don' ; t have to drill into it. AMY STARECHESKI: That makes sense because it' ; s got plastic, and it must be kind of-- CHERVONI: Yeah, well, see how the-- AMY STARECHESKI: --messy to drill into. CHERVONI: You got the cap. Like, you got the cap here. So, now, you have to put a hole here in order to hang it. AMY STARECHESKI: Right, right, right. CHERVONI: So I used to-- I' ; d be trying to drill, and the drill is moving. I' ; m like-- because it' ; s metal. AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah, you can drill through your finger that way. CHERVONI: But, now, they got a thing that you just put the cap and pop a hole, OK? AMY STARECHESKI: That' ; s awesome. CHERVONI: That' ; s it. Let' ; s get busy. AMY STARECHESKI: OK. So this is Amy Starecheski. I' ; m interviewing Danny Chervoni. That' ; s how you say your last name, right, Daniel " ; Cher-vo-ni?" ; CHERVONI: Like, if it was an S-H. AMY STARECHESKI: " ; Sher-vo-ni?" ; CHERVONI: Yeah, Chervoni. AMY STARECHESKI: Chervoni Say that again. CHERVONI: Sher-vo-- AMY STARECHESKI: Chervoni. CHERVONI: Right. There. AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS] CHERVONI: You' ; re good. AMY STARECHESKI: And we are in Ray and Gordy' ; s apartment on 139th Street. Today is March-- oh, my god-- thir-- CHERVONI: 14. AMY STARECHESKI: --14, 2018. And this is for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. So can you start off by telling me where and when you were born and a little bit about your early life, your family, your background? Whatever you want. Talk as long as you want. I' ; ll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck. CHERVONI: [CLEARS THROAT] So, as far as I remember, I was born in Brooklyn. The hospital was named Knickerbocker Hospital. It was on the south side of Brooklyn. It was called Williamsburg. And I used to live-- I remember I used to live by the Schaefer company and the Domino Sugar company, by the river. So it was me, my mother, and what was it? My mother had nine boys and two girls. AMY STARECHESKI: No! CHERVONI: And my oldest brother went into the military. And we lived in a little house. We lived in a little house. My father worked in Manhattan in a hotel. And my mother was just a stay-at-home mother until we moved to the Bronx. But when I lived in Brooklyn, we lived down by the river. And we used to go out and play. And we could see the river. We would go to the parks. And there was a Catholic school I used to go to called Epiphany. I remember, when I was small, my father, we had pigeons in the backyard. And they weren' ; t pigeons to be flying like they do now. These were like pigeons for-- you would call them pets. And every once in a while, we would put one in a pot and make some stew. But they were healthy pigeons. They were real healthy. I remember, my father used to go to the backyard and dig up the roses and put fish guts for fertilizer. And the roses were beautiful. And I lived in Brooklyn for about-- I don' ; t know, I think till I was about 15, 16 years old, or even less than that. And, then, we moved to the Bronx. I moved to, what was it, 141st Street between Brook and Willis. I think it was 410. Yeah, 410. 141st between Brook and Willis. My cousins lived there. And they were going back and forth to Brooklyn. Then, eventually, they said there was an apartment there. We moved to the Bronx. And, then, my father became the super of one of the buildings. And so I lived there. And I used to go to PS 49, which is on the corner, no, on the corner of Willis Avenue and 140th Street. And I remember, as I was a young teenager, my father had the building. He was the super. And it was before they had the oil furnace boilers. It was coals. And I used to be, like, when my father would go to work-- and my mother worked in Harlem Hospital. So my father worked in a hotel in Manhattan. And I used to run the building as far as, like, the garbage cans, the garbage, and the boiler. So as the truckload used to come, with the coal, and I used to shovel the coal to the back room, and shovel coal into the boiler. And they had, like, a paddle on the side of the boiler where I used to shake it back and forth, and get the ashes down to the bottom, and shovel out the ashes, put them in garbage cans, and try to get them upstairs, which I didn' ; t know how to do it. My father showed me how to take heavy stuff up the stairs by rolling the cans back and forth instead of trying to pick them up when they were weighing, like, 200, 300 pounds. And we still went across the street to Burger, to that park that I played, because it was right across the street. We used to go to People' ; s Park. And I remember, when I was a young teenager, I used to go to Burger, and we used to play basketball there. And we had to be home before the lights turned on, before the lights turned on at night. And in the park, I used to hear these guys. They used to be singing. I didn' ; t know till I learned, and it was called doo-wop. And these guys used to be all the way in the corner, where you couldn' ; t even see them. But you could hear them. And it was either three African Americans, or two and one Puerto Rican. But it was always three. And I used to go over there and hide and just listen to them singing, until I get home and get a beating for being out so late. [CHUCKLES] Yeah. So, you know, those young days of my life was good because we didn' ; t have all this technology now. You know, we used to go to the roof. We used to fly kites. We used to go get on our bicycles and go to the river, go swimming. And then we would find pear trees, apple trees, or blueberry bushes, and eat some of them. We would bring some little crabs home, little fishes. They wouldn' ; t last long, but, you know, we' ; d bring them home, then, they would die by the next day. We didn' ; t have money for bicycles. You know, in those days, it was like survival. And it was a good survival because, you know, we had good parenting. We had good role models and adults. The kids respected the adults. So, in those days, like, we would find stuff in the street, like, we would build bicycles. You know, parents didn' ; t have money to be buying bikes, so we would find a frame of a bike. Now, we got to look for some tires, and go to the gas station. And we would just take our skates apart and make skateboards, and go carts, and everything. And it was nice, those years. You know, then, in the neighborhood, they had, like, as you' ; re growing up, you start noticing-- because we weren' ; t into it because we were always minding our busi-- we' ; re not-- go to the park and play, you know? And there wasn' ; t so much violence like there is now. You know, there was drugs, but it wasn' ; t violent, like, teenagers taking advantage of people, and all these shootings, and everything. And there was gangs, but they respected each other' ; s-- you know, they were territorial. You know, living in the Bronx, it was OK. You know, we used to go to the empty lots and collect mattresses. We used to collect mattresses and stack them up, and, then, find a refrigerator. We' ; d go put the refrigerator next to it and jump off the refrigerators and do flips on the mattresses. And we were running all over the backyards. We would go to the backyards and climb every fence there is, from Brook Avenue all the way to Willis Avenue, through the backyards. One yard had, there was an old man, he had a German shepherd there. But the German shepherd was tied up. And if the German shepherd would have had us, he would have ate us. There was another old man. He had a slingshot, and he used to shoot marbles at us because we were climbing the fence. And we were stealing his peaches off the tree. Then, eventually, I went to what? I went from PS 49, I went to Burger. Burger' ; s on 141st and Brook Avenue. So they called it Junior High School 139 Burger. And, now, this-- it' ; s not even Burger no more. There' ; s like four schools in there. Like, they' ; re doing to all these schools. So, like, there' ; s a competition. And I was in a band. I used to play the trombone. And I also was in a printing class. So I used to do the newspaper, you know? And it' ; s funny. It' ; s like the-- well, now, it' ; s different, but you would actually put all the letters together, and the periods, and the question marks, and the commas. And then as far as pictures, they would give you a tile. And you would actually carve a picture into the tile, like a cartoon. And, then, you would put it between the letters, which they were made out of metal, and hook up the whole page, and, then, send them into the machine. And we used to make our own newspapers. I went from what, from Burger. Then, eventually, I went to DeWitt Clinton High School. I went to DeWitt Clinton High School. And school was good. I was in a swimming team. I tried to get on the baseball, but, ah, I said, you know what? There' ; s too much running. So I stayed on the swimming team [CHUCKLES] because I liked to swim because I used to go swimming in the river almost every day. And, then, eventually, I dropped out of school. I think I was in 11th grade. I was like, oh, man, I' ; m too tired for this, you know? We used to go back and forth because we had, what, DeWitt Clinton at that time was a boys' ; school. And, then, we have Walton. Walton was a girls' ; school. So we used to go back and forth looking for girls. And the girls used to come to our school. Then, eventually, when the 11th grade came, I was tired of school, and I dropped out. I dropped out, and my mother was like, what you going to do? I was like, I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do. I don' ; t want to work. I don' ; t want to do nothing. So before I get in trouble, my mother sent me away to North Carolina. And that' ; s where my brother was. And he was in the Marines. So I was there babysitting his kids. I was babysitting my two nephews. And, then, what happened was I got recruited into the Marine Corps. And I said, you know what? So what I did was, before I got out into the Marines, I had to actually lose weight. And, then, I had to take the tests in order to qualify. Then, eventually, I went into the Marine Corps. I did, like, three years. And, then, I got-- what was it? It was a-- I forgot. It was a bad discharge, undesirable discharge under honorable conditions because I got into a fight with a captain. So they put me out. And, then, I was back into the Bronx. So I had this Marine Corps haircut and everything. And, then, I' ; m with my friends. And all my friends are drug dealers. And I' ; m like, yo, these guys are making money, a lot of money and everything. And I would just hang out. I' ; d hang out with them, and next thing you know, it' ; s like, yo, the police is coming. I said, listen, I' ; m not running from the damn police. Bullshit, you know? And I would cross my hands on my chest, and the police would pull up, and they' ; d be, like, looking around. They' ; d look at me, and they would look at me, say, yo, what are you doing here? I said, what do you mean? This is a free country. I can stand anywhere I want, you know? And, then, after one or two times, like, I noticed, they didn' ; t really bother me. And, then, I started realizing, I said, wait a minute, I looked in the mirror, I said, no wonder. I looked like a Marine. I had my Marine Corps haircut. You know, I' ; m built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, like the Hulk. And they were like, oh, no, we' ; re not messing with that guy. He' ; s military. Then, eventually, I got into the game, too. I said, you know what? This is fast money. Let me start doing this, too. And that was where my life started going downhill, you know? Because drugs, unless you' ; re getting legal drugs from the pharmacy, you know, you shouldn' ; t be messing with any other type. And that' ; s where I became one of the dealers in the neighborhood. You know, hanging out with the fellows, selling. And this is back in the, oh, what? In the ' ; 80s. ' ; 80s, late ' ; 70s. You know, where everybody was making money, even the-- there wasn' ; t even homeless people. There was money all over the place. Then, eventually, I started getting caught by the police. Either I sold to an undercover, or I got caught with weapons. Then, I started going in and out of jail, in and out of jail. I started seeing friends of mine that would either move away, or they would get killed, or they' ; d be in jail doing time. It was a terrible life. Then, eventually, I got tired of it. I said, you know what? I can' ; t deal with this no more. And I was also a user. So I was my worst-- like, my best customer. It was like a nightmare. I was using at least $1,000 a day. It was a life where it was, you know, I couldn' ; t even have my own kids because when I had my kids, I got arrested so many times that somebody had to take my kids. So my mother and my oldest brother, they went to court, and they fought for the kids. So my oldest brother got the kids. And he brought them up. And, you know, I thank God, and I pray for him every day because without him, I wouldn' ; t have been able to do it. You know, my kids would have been lost in the system. So I got my son, he works at a hospital. My daughter, one of my daughter' ; s is a manager of a restaurant. And she always flits from restaurant to restaurant because she' ; s a good manager. And, then, my oldest daughter' ; s a sergeant in Brooklyn, in the 70th Precinct. And she also did four years in the Marine Corps. And, then, she went and became a police officer. So they' ; re all doing good. So it was good that he stepped in because I was, like, I couldn' ; t even handle it. I was like, my life was all screwed up. So then eventually, I said, you know what? I' ; ve got to do something. My mother used to try to help me, like, take me to the hospital, take me to a detox. I even went to Lincoln Acupuncture on 140th Street. And I went in there, and I had, like, I don' ; t know, like, maybe a $2,000 a day because I was a dealer, and I also was using my own, snoring. I thank God I never stuck a needle in myself. But I snorted like a vacuum cleaner. And I even went in there, and I was like, they put these needles in me. I said, what is this? This is not going to help me. I have to, like, really detox. So my mother had moved to Alabama, and I followed her. And I went to Alabama, and I locked myself up in a room. And I stood locked up in that room for like two months. And I thought that was the end of my life. I went through so much withdrawals. I wouldn' ; t wish that on nobody. It was terrible. And then eventually, I survived. And I came back to New York as a new person, you know, as a new person. Because I remember, when I was with my wife, I would get my paycheck, and I would give her $10 to pay all the bills, out of a check, $10 to pay all the bills. And the rest was going towards the drugs. And every night, I needed drugs to go to sleep, just like addicts now. Addicts now need them, they need a fix. They have to wake up and get a fix. To go to sleep, they' ; ve got to get a fix because if they don' ; t have drugs in them, they cannot sleep comfortable. So I said, I went over to Alabama, I got clean. I was there for about two months. And my mother took care of me. She would go to the backyard, get vegetables, fruits, take a chicken, wring his neck, maybe some chicken soup, you know? I remember, she had a little goat back there and a dog. And she took care of me. Then, eventually when I got clean, I came back home. I came back home, and as soon as I came home, I came back to work. I was a supervisor of like 39 employees in a company that was called what, Gargoyles Studio. Used to do reproduction of antiques and all. So I worked with them for about 17 years, till they closed down. And then I started working for another company because when I worked for that company, I was doing shows in the Jacob Javits Center for Gargoyles Studio. And we would do the gift show. And I would set up a whole booth with all types of reproductions of antiques. So my boss would go to England, find an antique. Antique is what, maybe 500,000 years old? He would bring it back, and we would start-- make a mold and start reproducing them, and start selling you know mak-- copies, and make reproduction of antiques. So, you know, I was working in Jacob Javits Center and doing the shows for about 18 years. And then eventually, I was helping another lady on the weekends. Her name is Mia. She used to do Christmas ornaments from Poland. Very beautiful ornaments. So when Gargoyles Studio shut down, then, Mia hired me because I was doing good work for her. I stood with her for about 15 years. And then eventually, you know, as the years went by, and you know, what happens is, like, people now, these days, they don' ; t want to spend money. They don' ; t look for quality. Now, this is like, everything is getting imported from China, Korea, the Philippines. You know, the cheapest the cost, that' ; s where they' ; re going to get it from, you know. But, years ago, nobody was buying nothing until they turned it over and it said, made in the USA. And I remember I used to put USA stickers on the statutes. You know, now, it' ; s like, you know there' ; s not enough money out there, so people have to buy what they can afford. So then eventually when Mia closed down, I said, you know what? I' ; m not going to work no more because it' ; s hard to get a job that you qualify for. You know, you qualify for something, they' ; re not going to give you that because they don' ; t want to give you the money that you' ; re worth. So I said, you know what? My time is up. I' ; m already over 60. I' ; m going to go onto Social Security Disability and stay in the neighborhood, take care of Brook Park, which I' ; ve been there for like, I don' ; t know how many years. But I remember, I used to be there, pff, before it was Brook Park. I used to do barbecues and birthday parties back there for me and the family. So now I stay at Brook Park. We stay in the community, and help out the community, and you know, wherever I' ; m needed because we do need people in the community to [INAUDIBLE]. We have to give to the community because if not, we lose it. You know, we lose the experience, and the history, and all the good things that we had and that we lived through. And then, you know, also, we could pass it on to the new generation now because there' ; s a lot of kids out there that are lost, and either they don' ; t have parents, or they' ; ve got bad parenting, or they want to-- they think they know it all. They want to do whatever they want to do. And that' ; s not right, you know? Unless you have good role models to help you. and life is good. AMY STARECHESKI: I' ; m going to go back to the beginning. Can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? CHERVONI: So let me see. My father was like-- he was over 6 feet tall, dark skin. And my mother was-- [CHUCKLES] my mother wasn' ; t even 5 feet, and she was short and chubby. But oh, my Lord. I buried her. I buried her. She was, oh, like, the best, the best. So, yeah, so I remember more when I was in the Bronx because my mother had nine boys and two girls. And I know from them, not like, you know, my mother and my father were sleeping around. No way. You know, there wasn' ; t time for that because what happened was, you know, some families, didn' ; t have TVs, so what else was there to do? You know, make kids. But I remember, when I was a little kid, my father used to tell me-- used to send me to the closet. I forgot what he used to tell me, but we had a black-and-white TV. And he had this piece of plastic that was red. It was yellow, red, and green, or yellow, red, and blue, one of those three colors. And we would put it in front of the black-and-white TV to get color. And then eventually, he bought a TV home with a remote control. I' ; m talking about, every time you hit the control, it was like starting a car. It was so noisy. And it was big, man. It was like, I don' ; t know, almost like the size of a shoe, the bit remote control. But, yeah, I' ; m trying to-- so my father worked in a hotel. And I don' ; t think my mother was working yet until we moved to the Bronx because she worked 20-something years in Harlem Hospital. Because I remember when I was a kid, she used to take me any time I was sick because I was born with asthma. She told me that when I was born, I didn' ; t cry. I was sneezing. I was sneezing or coughing. I wasn' ; t crying. Like, they would slap me, I was coughing and sneezing, I wasn' ; t crying. You know, I was trying to breathe. So I' ; ve had asthma all my life, and I still have it. But, yeah, she worked in Harlem Hospital. AMY STARECHESKI: Were your parents from New York? CHERVONI: No, they were both from Puerto Rico. Both from Puerto Rico. I think my mother was-- I think my mother was adopted. Yeah. And you know what? I was never into history. Like, people say, " ; yo, what part of Puerto Rico?" ; I don' ; t care. You know, they were from Puerto Rico, that' ; s it. From the island, you know? That' ; s what counted for me. But I never really asked, And if I did, I probably forgot. AMY STARECHESKI: What year were you born? CHERVONI: ' ; 56. AMY STARECHESKI: And what was it like having so many brothers and sisters? You had, what, eight brothers and two sisters? CHERVONI: It was-- well, yeah, eight brothers and two sisters. And it was funny because we' ; re survivors. We survived. Like, there wasn' ; t money to buy brand new sneakers. So when my brother outgrew his, I grew into his sneakers. And believe me, I had sneakers where they had holes on the bottom. And we used to put cardboard inside our sneakers. And whoever didn' ; t have socks would have to wear the socks from the older person, the older brother. And I remember, I used to put on my older brother' ; s socks. And I would have to put it on till I got the heel to my heel and take the front of it, where it was like 3 or 4 inches long, and fold it under my foot to put my foot inside the sneakers with the cardboard. You know my sisters had it made because there was only two girls, you know? But the brothers, like, we all-- each of us was wearing each other' ; s hand-me-downs. And we used to fight. Oh, my lord. You know how that is. You know. Like my mother would say, and other people would say, whoever screams the loudest gets the milk first. Yeah. And I remember, my parents worked, but I think we were also getting public assistance, where my mother used to get, like, they would give these food, like, a block of cheese. They would give a can of pork. We' ; d get powdered milk, powdered eggs. And my mother would take a bag of powdered milk and make, like, 4 gallons of milk out of it. At that time, it was delicious, you know? And we were real small. It was delicious. It was good. And they call it survival from back in the days. AMY STARECHESKI: You said you used to go back and forth between Williamsburg and the Bronx because your cousins were here? CHERVONI: Right, yeah. My cousins lived on 141st Street. And we used to go back and forth, you know, visiting, and, then, go back to Brooklyn, and back and forth. Until I remember, one day, we packed up all our stuff, and we moved to the Bronx. AMY STARECHESKI: What did this neighborhood seem like when you first started coming here? CHERVONI: You know, there was less cars. A lot of kids playing in the streets. It was-- you know -- it was more like a community. It was like, I couldn' ; t do nothing bad. Forget it. You know, I' ; d probably get a whipping before I get home. I would get scolded five times. You know, we were taught when we were small to respect, not to be cursing, and, you know, respect people. But it was more a community. You know, and in the schools, too. In the schools, you went in there to learn, not to play. It was good. It was nice. You know, we did kid things. Not like now. Kids are looking to do something, but there' ; s nobody to do it with them. You know, they' ; re just like lost in the sauce, you know like in a whirlpool. Because, now, these days, there' ; s nothing being done with-- especially with the technology now, everybody wants to be on a cell phone. AMY STARECHESKI: What kind of stuff did you do? You talked about flipping on mattresses. What other kinds of stuff did you do, like at the playground and with your friends when you were a kid? CHERVONI: We used to hang out on the rooftops, fly pigeons. We used to fly kites. We used to go to the river, swimming. We used to get on our bicycles. We used to get on our bicycles and go to [INAUDIBLE] Bay on bicycle, no trains. You know and these were bikes that we built, you know? And everybody had, like, either a pair of pliers, a hammer. We all carried tools because we had to repair our bikes. These weren' ; t new bikes. These were bikes we made. And we used to play in the parks. We used to play stoop ball, basketball, football, a round of ringalevio. We used to play-- you know. There was a lot of games that we played. We played in the park. Had this thing called monkey bars where we used to climb up on it. I haven' ; t seen one of those in, pff, in ages, unless it' ; s on the TV or in a picture of a magazine. But a lot of playing in the parks. A lot of playing in the parks. And that' ; s why we need parks, for kids to actually play. And not just for kids, for elderly people, too. You know, and for parents, too, because they get to come out the house and have a good time with their kids. AMY STARECHESKI: Can you try to walk me through a day in your life when you were a little kid? Like, maybe a day when you go over to the Bronx Kill and catch crabs, and you wake up, like, what do you have for breakfast? How do you find your friends? CHERVONI: Yeah, so we would get up in the morning, and, ooh, oh, my lord, this is-- oh, so let me see. We would actually get up in the morning and fight to get dressed. Oh my lord. We would fight to get dressed, like, what I' ; m gonna wear. You know, because there were so many of us going back and forth, putting on our clothes. And you know you got to get in the bathroom, wash your face, and [INAUDIBLE] who were not doing that. You know, I used to go in the bathroom. They' ; d say, go in the bathroom, wash your face, and brush your teeth. I would take two drops-- I would take my two fingers and stick them in the water, just clean my eyes, and that' ; s it. I wasn' ; t brushing my teeth. I wasn' ; t doing none of that or combing my hair. You know, we didn' ; t care when we were kids. You know, get dressed and run out the door to school. And we would go to school by ourselves. It was OK at that time, you know. And, then, you know, we would come back and sneak into the park. We would sneak into the park with our school clothes, you know. And if we got dirty, we would get a whipping. We would get beat for going to the park with our school clothes. And we knew, if we go upstairs, we might not be able to come down, you know. So we would go to the park and either play basketball, or Johnny-on-the-pony, or ringolevio, if there was enough people to play. You know and, then, eventually, if we heard somebody hollering, everybody would think it was them. And everybody started like, yo, who' ; s that? Who' ; s that? And either one person would run out the park because that' ; s the person they were calling, it would be his parents. But we would be in the park as long as we can until we got in trouble or when it started getting dark in those-- either we' ; d leave the park when it started getting dark or as soon as those lights came on. And, then, eventually, we go home and get a beating or, if not, you know we get a break. We tried to do our homework in the school, sneakin' ; it in the school so we don' ; t have to go home and do it. Or we' ; d have to go home and do our homework and stay in the house, you know. AMY STARECHESKI: What was your apartment like? CHERVONI: Oh, it' ; s just one of those-- you like the apartment I' ; m living in now? One of those, they call it like the railroad apartment that' ; s long. Yeah. I remember, when we were kids, we used to, there' ; d be, like, five or six of us. And we would go to each other' ; s house. We would go to each other' ; s house either to use the bathroom or to eat. And as soon as we' ; d come in the house, we would find like, a corner, and we' ; d just throw all our coats in the corner. There wasn' ; t no, where' ; s the closet, hang up my coat. We would all stack them up in the corner. And it was good in those days because the parents were, pff, you know, they didn' ; t care. You know, if one person could eat, everybody could eat. And I remember, they used to have-- we used to have the little metal cups. They come in colors. There' ; s a song. There' ; s a song, I think Gran Combo sings it. And they say, " ; vaso en colores," ; which is the cups of colors. And these are all metal, steel cups-- blue, purple, green, orange. And we didn' ; t have money to buy cups. You opened up a can of soup today, well, that can was going to be a cup. So you went into anybody' ; s house and they were making coffee, drinking, they would all be metal cups from the soups or from Carnation milk or whatever. And then we would go from house to house. And then, it was all like a little click, like a little gang of guys. We used to go to each other' ; s house, and then we used to go to the parks. And we had a good time. It was nice. I would like to go back, backwards, and enjoy some more of those days, especially swimming in the river. I remember, we used to get our bikes. I don' ; t even know-- well, it had to be like 132nd, all the way down there by the river, where there was-- like, before the oil furnaces came out, it was coal. And there was a company over there that had coals, and we used to call that the coal mines. And when we used to get there, there was a fence. And then on the fence, there was a whole bunch of doors aligned with the fence so the coal wouldn' ; t come through the fence. And then we used to hide our bikes like in the bushes because there was older guys, older teenagers than us that wanted to steal our bicycles. So we used to hide our bicycles. And then we used to climb up the fence. And, then, we used to step into the coals. And the coals is like a mountain of stone, like a mountain of sand, where your feet starts to sink in it. And then we had to be quiet because there were stray dogs back there, like five, six, seven stray dogs. And they bite. And we were, like, sh. And, then, we would be quiet. And we' ; d start, like, walking down the coal. And our feet are like sinking into the coal while we' ; re walking down. And as soon as we hear the first bark, we start running. We start running like oh, my lord, real scared to death. And we start running down the coal, and across the field, over the train tracks, and eventually, the dogs won' ; t chase us no more. They' ; d go but so far. And then we would run all the way to the river. And then, we' ; d find the spot where we were going to swim. And it' ; s funny because we used to go under a bridge, and they had the freight trains, the trains used to go on top. And we would go under a bridge, and there was, like, a concrete piece that went right to the water. And we would walk on top of it. And right underneath the concrete slab was like a big block. There was a pipe. And there was eels in the water. We didn' ; t know. We went-- oh, my lord. So we used to swim with the eels. There was eels going in and out of the pipe. So I don' ; t remember if they would stay-- if they would go back in the pipe or they would be swimming with us. But we didn' ; t pay it no mind because I still don' ; t remember. But I remember the eels. And we used to all take off our clothes, and we all were wearing Superman underwear, called the Fruit of the Loom, the white ones. Yeah. And we used to-- oh, it was beautiful. We used to swim in there. My brother-in-law saved a kid one time because we told him, " ; don' ; t jump in with your jeans. Don' ; t go in there with your sneakers or your jeans." ; And he was like, you know, he didn' ; t listen. He didn' ; t listen. And he was jumping in, jumping out. And then one time, he jumped in and wasn' ; t jumping in and out and. And like, " ; yo, where' ; s this guy at?" ; And he was stuck on a box-spring. And my brother-in-law, he dived in and pulled him out. His pants were stuck on a box-spring because, in the river, people were dumping shopping carts, and mattresses, and furniture, and everything you know. And we were just having a good time. We used to come up with little guppy fishes, little crabs. Oh my-- I used to bring back the blueberries. My mother used to make jam. She used to make jam. We were eating what? We were eating blueberries, pears, and apples. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, we used to eat them in the river. There wasn' ; t enough to eat all the time because we just ate what we, you know, we were hungry. That was it. It wasn' ; t like to bring it home. But the blueberries I used to bring home. My mother used to make jam from me. Oh, excuse me. AMY STARECHESKI: Do you want some more water? CHERVONI: No, I' ; m all right. [SETS GLASS DOWN] Thank you. AMY STARECHESKI: So is this, like, over by the Hell Gate Railroad Bridge? CHERVONI: I think it is. AMY STARECHESKI: Like where the-- between the Bronx and Randalls Island? Or is it like over by-- CHERVONI: I know it' ; s on our side. AMY STARECHESKI: On our side. So, like, where there' ; s that little water between here and Randalls Island, or is it more like the sound, looking out towards Brother' ; s Island? CHERVONI: I don' ; t think it-- you know what? I think it' ; s closer towards Brook Avenue somewhere because we weren' ; t going too far. AMY STARECHESKI: Ok. Yeah. CHERVONI: We weren' ; t going too far. And there was a lot of-- there was truckloads of coals you know like I don' ; t ever remember an oil truck in those days. And if you walk-- and I could show you-- if you walk through 140th, right, because it' ; s only where the big buildings are at that have these steel gates in front of the buildings. You can actually see where a door is cut out on the bars where they used to put the-- where the coal truck would park, like a cement truck, and put the plank. And they would shoot the coal down into that little area. And then I actually would come out of the basement with a wheelbarrow, and fill up the wheelbarrow, and take it all the way to the back into one room and fill it up. And as I needed coal to put into the boiler, I would fill up a wheelbarrow, bring it in, and shovel it into the boiler. And every once in a while, I would be outside playing, and next thing I know, there' ; s no water, no heat. I said, " ; oh, the boiler turned off!" ; And that' ; s what happened, the boiler turned off. I had to go through the neighborhood to find wooden chairs, tables, beds, because everything was made out of wood in them days. And I would have to throw it in there and get a couple of newspapers, any type of paper, and build it up, and start a fire. And as soon as I started a fire in the boiler, then, I could start shoveling some coal little by little, little and get the furnace burning again. But I would get in trouble when it turned off. They complained to my father. [CHUCKLES] AMY STARECHESKI: Do you know who was your landlord? CHERVONI: No. No. AMY STARECHESKI: What was like the-- you know what did the neighborhood look like back then? CHERVONI: Well, oh, my lord. There was some-- what was it? There was Irish. No. I remember, when I was a kid, when I was a kid, I used to walk to the corner, I' ; d go around the corner, and there was a pub. There was also an ice cream parlor. And I used to go in there and get milkshakes. But I' ; m talking about the real-- no, it wasn' ; t even-- it was egg creams. They were called egg creams, with the long spoon and seltzer water. And, yeah, I' ; m trying to think. There was-- I don' ; t think it was Greek. It was Irish or-- it wasn' ; t Italians. Yeah, but there were some bars. There were pubs. There was ice cream parlors around. The good humor, you know, the guy pushing the cart with the [INAUDIBLE], yeah. It wasn' ; t -- yeah-- There wasn' ; t that many bodegas. My mother had one, too. My mother had one right there on 141st Street. OK. Let me see. There' ; s one building left on 141st Street, going toward the corner of Willis Avenue. The building' ; s number is 404. It' ; s the only building standing of all the big buildings. And my mother, there was a-- the next building, let me see. Wait up. No. It was-- OK. So where the drugstore' ; s at, there was a big building there, right on the corner. And there was, underneath it, my mother had a grocery store, and there was also a tire shop that used to fix tires and sell drugs out of there. But my mother had a grocery store there, too. AMY STARECHESKI: Like, she ran the grocery store? CHERVONI: She owned it. We had a little grocery store. I remember, I used to be behind the counter selling them pig feet. Pig feet and sausages. [CHUCKLES] Yeah. Take the money out of the cash register, and I used to share with my friends, make sandwiches, you know. I had a big German shepherd. One of my best dogs-- like a police dog. Canine German shepherd. I used to feed him like-- he was in the basement, and I would cook his food. I would feed a two-pound box of Carolina rice. Like, five cans of vegetables and three cans of [INAUDIBLE] dog food. So he got a big pot. This dog was huge. And he lived in the basement. Yeah, so my mother had the grocery store. And then I was-- forget it. You know, kids will be kids. I didn' ; t want to take care of no grocery store. I' ; d just going in there to take money, and eat, and share with my friends. And, and then when I had to work it, I had to work the day with my mother, but pff. If we knew then what we know now, oh, forget it, you know? It' ; d be a better world. We wouldn' ; t have to go through what we' ; re going through now. AMY STARECHESKI: When you came here and you started going to school, the kids in your class, was it mostly Puerto Rican kids? Were there still Irish kids around here? CHERVONI: No, it was more Puerto Rican and Black. I don' ; t remember Irish kids. I don' ; t remember. I know when I was a kid, I hated school. I used to fight in school. I had this kid-- we used to go to typing class. And every time we went to typing class, we would push the tables apart and fight right there in the center of the classroom, and the teacher watching us, too. Eventually, we became best of friends, to this day. [LAUGHS] AMY STARECHESKI: During the time that you' ; ve been here, a lot of buildings became abandoned or burned down, the vacant lots. When did all that start? Was that starting already when you got here, or did it start later? CHERVONI: No, it started later on because of the drugs you know, and landlords, like, there were supers, but landlords, I don' ; t remember meeting any landlords. Probably, we didn' ; t even know what landlords was. But eventually, it was because of people moving it out, and then, because of the drugs, people moving in. And Supers would probably be, they' ; d be down with the dealers. Like, they wasn' ; t getting nobody to move into the new apartment, the apartment that' ; s empty, that the drugs-- you know, I did it myself, too. When I was dealing, I had two apartments where people would go in and use drugs, you know. Then, they would leave, go home, and you know. So the apartments, eventually, what happened was that people were moving out. People weren' ; t moving in. And then with the drugs and the violence, some apartments, they got so bad where-- I don' ; t remember actual, like, for me, the buildings were getting burned for insurance, because you know, the people that were there wouldn' ; t want to burn it down because they' ; re living in them. So for me, actually, the landlords would actually have them burned. That' ; s the only way they' ; re going to get their building or get the insurance. You know what? They burned the building down on me, you know. And then eventually, they didn' ; t know-- I don' ; t know how the system was that there' ; s still some of the buildings up, you know? And the structure' ; s so strong, but the city probably didn' ; t know what to do. They started knocking the buildings down. And there was-- I figure for two reasons. Knock them down because they didn' ; t know what to do, and knock them down so they wouldn' ; t be re-used you know by dealers, I don' ; t know, addicts, or homeless people that were living in them. But, yeah. When I moved from Brooklyn to the Bronx, all the buildings were up, you know. All the apartments were full, you know. We used to go to the ice cream parlors, and we used to go to the pool hall, play pool. We used to go rent videos, you know the, what, VHSs? Yeah. There was a lot going on back in the days. And you' ; d get in trouble if you disrespected any elderly people, or girls, or be fighting, or any of that stuff. If you did, you' ; d be in trouble. AMY STARECHESKI: Why do you think it changed? CHERVONI: Oh. (long pause) It' ; s like-- I don' ; t know. You know, I think life, it has to go either one way or the other. It has to go up or down. It has to get better, or get worse to get better, or get better, and then eventually, it gets worse because, like they say, good things don' ; t last forever. I don' ; t know. It could have been the slumlords, politicians. I don' ; t know. Even the police department. Police, oh, forget it. Pff. Police department was so corrupted. Oh, my lord. It' ; s like, you know, so. In those days, you had good stuff and bad stuff. Let' ; s see what happens now. [CHUCKLES] AMY STARECHESKI: [CHUCKLES] What was it like living here when all that started, like, with the-- yeah, with just what-- how old were you? Probably an older teenager, huh? CHERVONI: Yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah? Even when I first came here, there still was not that many fires. It kind of had settled down. So I just never have lived through that. And I' ; m interested in what it was like to live here during that period. CHERVONI: It was-- it was-- it was like normal. Yeah, because, you see, what happens is, it' ; s like if we moved to the Amazon jungle, it was, like, oh, oh, what' ; s going on here? But if you actually live in a neighborhood, and these houses, and next thing you know, as the years go by, the violence, the burning the buildings and everything, eventually, it' ; s like pff a normal thing to you. Now, the buildings are burned. And you could go on the computer, and you could see like, I got friends of mine. They post pictures up. And you can see the old neighborhoods where you didn' ; t have to go around the corner from 139th Street to 145th, you didn' ; t even have-- you could go through the alleys, through the backyards, between the buildings, and nobody would ever know that you' ; re on 145th because they had so many alleyways and backyards, and everything, climbing over the fences. And empty lots where buildings were knocked down. You know, some buildings were knocked down early. Some buildings, the apartments were burned out, the buildings were burned down, and they stood there for a while. I don' ; t know what made them, all of a sudden, they knocked down one or two. The rest of them stayed. But, yeah, and, then, you start-- it' ; s like a normal thing. It' ; s like a normal thing. You know, it' ; s like people now, they live in projects. The projects, it' ; s not the projects, it' ; s the people. And they' ; re used to seeing the violence. And it' ; s a regular thing for them [INAUDIBLE]. And it' ; s terrible, but that' ; s life. You get used to it. You get used to it, and you become part of it. AMY STARECHESKI: Were the projects already here when you got here? CHERVONI: No. The projects, I started seeing the foundation-- I saw the foundation of those projects. Yeah. My mother-in-law lives in one of them. She' ; ll be 96 next month. And she' ; s been living there a long time. But yeah, but when we moved over here, I don' ; t even remember what was there. But we started seeing the foundation of the projects. And the projects weren' ; t even there. So you could actually see the bulldozers and everything starting to build the projects. I don' ; t remember anything that was there. AMY STARECHESKI: What did people think about it? CHERVONI: About the projects? Oh, pff they loved it. You know, the projects was-- I had a friend of mine, he said, [CHUCKLES] he said, what was it? He was down with the revolution. He said, the projects, all it is is, eventually, when we go to war, the projects are going to be concentration camps because there' ; s only one way in and one way out. And this is the older guys. Like, I could be like 14 years old. This is a guy 40-something, 50-something, and he' ; s talking about-- and that' ; s when the Young Lords and the Black Panthers-- when I came to the Bronx, I saw the Young Lords and the Black Panthers. I was young. I would see them, like, marching around the neighborhood, and doing demonstrations, and all that. But, yeah, the projects was like, they' ; re building a new building? Oh, cool, you know? And like I say, it' ; s never the buildings, it' ; s the people, you know. Everybody wanted to move in there. AMY STARECHESKI: Did people in the projects and people in the apartments mix? CHERVONI: Yeah. Yes. Yes, they did. Yeah, yeah, because then eventually, wasn' ; t the Irish, or whoever they were, there wasn' ; t no more in the neighborhood. They started moving out. It' ; s like in Williamsburg, when I was living, you can go back to Williamsburg, and there' ; s still a lot of Jewish people there. Yeah. It' ; s like they glued down, you know? It' ; s like they ain' ; t going nowhere without a battle. But yeah, the projects, oh, forget it. I remember, when I was a teenager, I used to run to the top floor. We had energy like forget it, you know? And we used to go to the roof and everything. We used to go to everybody' ; s house. And there was a lot of socializing in those days. Not now, forget it. Yeah, there was a lot of socializing. The elderly people, like, they were more kind. They had more heart, you know. Now, there' ; s that thing where I don' ; t care. AMY STARECHESKI: It says that on your shirt. [LAUGHTER] CHERVONI: Yes, it does. I remember one time, I saw two kids fighting, man. And I told-- and this is not-- this is a couple-- maybe 5, 10 years ago. I didn' ; t even have a cell phone. And I told the lady, listen, you got a phone, call the police. She says, " ; not on my phone." ; I said, " ; why?" ; She says, " ; this is my phone. That' ; s none of my business." ; I said, " ; if it was your son getting beat up, you' ; d want somebody to call the police, right?" ; And it' ; s like, pff, you know? But yeah there was a lot of socializing back in the days. You know, even though there was also gangs, but the gangs were territorial, and they respected each other. It wasn' ; t like all-out was with the gangs. No, it wasn' ; t like that. It wasn' ; t. And you know what initiation was in a gang? They take the guy, and they beat him up. They take the one that wants to be in the gang, and they beat him up. And that' ; s it. Not, oh, here, take a razor blade, and go hurt somebody. No. It wasn' ; t like that, you know. And back in those days, it was cool to be in a gang. But you got respect, and they respected each other. It wasn' ; t like an all-out war. And there was a lot of socializing. [INAUDIBLE]. It was good. AMY STARECHESKI: What did you think about the Young Lords and the Black Panthers when you saw them marching around? CHERVONI: I didn' ; t pay too much mind to it. As I started getting older, I was like, cool, you know? They were fighting for the community you know and against the government because, you know, racist things that they were doing, you know. Like, you know I don' ; t know if you had to be light skinned, or white, or whatever to get help, you know. And then the racists, the police department just going around, and anybody has dark skin, you know they took advantage of them. You know, arresting people, harassing people, beating people down for just the color of their skin. Think everybody' ; s a criminal, you know. I' ; ve had it happen to me, too, you know years ago. And, then, they realized, like, they' ; re wrong. So, you know, everybody' ; s not a criminal. AMY STARECHESKI: Why do you think all the white people left this neighborhood? CHERVONI: But it' ; s not just whites, too, but, you know, maybe it could be, too, that probably they didn' ; t like the Blacks or the Hispanics that were moving in, or the neighborhood was getting bad. Or maybe they wanted control of the neighborhood. Or they just wanted to move out, you know to a better neighborhood. Or the neighborhood was getting bad, you know. And pff and if I had my choices, I' ; d probably move out, too, because you want the best thing for you and your family, you know. And now, [CHUCKLES] everybody' ; s coming back. The Bronx is up for sale. AMY STARECHESKI: Tell me about it. Like, what do you notice now that' ; s different? CHERVONI: In a way, I like it. In a way, I don' ; t, you know. It' ; s like-- Let' ; s appreciate the Bronx for what it is and what it used to be because, in order for it to be like it is, what happened years ago had to happen. So now it' ; s like-- I don' ; t mind, you know like-- I don' ; t have nothing against-- listen, for me, everybody is the same color. I don' ; t even judge people by their color. I judge people the way they treat me you know and treat other people. That' ; s it. You know we should all share the space, and not try to take it over, and try to judge people where, you shouldn' ; t be here because of this and that and that and this. I really, I don' ; t know. Then, you got the rich people that want to move in because all they think about is money. And they really don' ; t care if we move out. They' ; d rather have us move out so they can take it over. And what are you going to do with that money when you die? You know it' ; s like, I' ; d rather have no money and be happy than to have a lot of money and be miserable. Like, miserable people that do, that come into the Bronx, and want to just take over. You' ; ve got to try to go with the flow, the best you can. AMY STARECHESKI: When did the neighborhood start to you know, when did it start to feel like it was getting better? However you-- I want to know what you would mean by better, too. CHERVONI: Yeah, better in a sense where-- better in the sense where the neighborhood is being taken care of. You know, things are-- vacant-- vacant buildings, and vacant stores or businesses are being reopened, and getting something out of it because it has to happen. I don' ; t know if--when-- it started going on, what, I don' ; t know, maybe it could be 10 years. 10 years or more. Where it started gradually, little by little, started getting better. You know and then eventually, as it gets better, the bad people that are ruining the neighborhood, like they can' ; t stick around. They don' ; t want to get caught. It' ; s like, we got a bucket of apples, and there' ; s like, five bad apples. The rest of the apples are going to rot. But if you keep putting good apples in there, the rotten ones, eventually, they' ; re going to have to disappear. They' ; re thrown out. But the neighborhood is going to change, little by little. And it' ; s for the best. AMY STARECHESKI: What was it like for you to come back here after going down to-- was it Alabama-- for two months to get sober-- CHERVONI: Oh, yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: --and, then, coming back to this neighborhood? What was that like? CHERVONI: Well, I felt better because I got clean, you know. And then, it was like I had to separate myself because I said, I can' ; t live that lifestyle no more. And I also tried to help a lot of the people. I' ; ve saved lives, you know. There' ; s lives that I tried to save, and I couldn' ; t do it because it' ; s up to do the individual. But then I realized what' ; s going on, and I was like, you know what? I can' ; t be in it no more. So I have to run my own life. I have to do what' ; s best for me and my family, and my friends, and whoever else wants to be involved, but you know-- you start-- Sometimes, when a person is doing bad, that' ; s all they see. That' ; s all they see. And they think everything should be bad and is bad. Until they start doing good, then, they realize, wow, you know? Now, I see-- you know because like, now, you have addicts in the street. Like, they don' ; t realize how they look, you know until you approach them and say, listen, this is what' ; s going-- like, no. I said, yeah, it is. So then I came back, and I was like, OK, now, I see what' ; s going on. And I bettered myself. I had to do something because, if not, it' ; s like, if you don' ; t take care of yourself, who' ; s going to take care of you? You know it' ; s up to the individual. You have to do what you got to do. AMY STARECHESKI: And when did you get married? CHERVONI: Well, I never did. But I' ; ve been with my wife, oh, my lord, since 1990. Yeah. 1990. That was when I came out of the penitentiary. Yeah. I went upstate like three times for drugs and weapons. And I came home in 1990 the last time, and I was like, you know what? I' ; m not going back to jail. I' ; m going to get me a job. I' ; m going to get me a job. And, eventually, I had a job, and I was using drugs. And then eventually, I realized, well, I was going down the drain with the drug use. And then that' ; s when I-- there was times I couldn' ; t even sleep, and my wife would say, " ; you all right? You want to go to the hospital?" ; I said, " ; no, I' ; m OK. I' ; m OK." ; I used to walk to Fordham Road and back just to get tired so I could sleep because a heroin addict, if they don' ; t use heroin to go to sleep, they will never sleep. Their bodies are too uncomfortable. So that' ; s why they got to look for a fix when they get up and when they go to sleep. So eventually I went away, and I got clean and came back. But was with-- I' ; ve been with my wife since 1990. Since I came out of the penitentiary. AMY STARECHESKI: How did you guys meet? CHERVONI: So I grew up with her brothers. She' ; s-- she' ; s seven years older than me. Yeah. People say, how-- I say, she took advantage of me. So but what it was, there was-- so I used to hang out with her brother. Her brother used to come from Newburgh. And we used to hang out, and we used to drink beer, and play basketball, and listen to music because I used to DJ at that time. I still got my equipment. But at that time, I was DJing more, like every day. And then I used to hang out in my wife' ; s house when her brother used to come from Newburgh. And at that time, my asthma was bad. So there was times where I would be at her house waiting for him to come, and he wouldn' ; t show up. And you know my asthma was bad, so she would take care of me. She would make me tea, and give me a Vicks rub on my chest and everything. And then eventually, I would go home. And, then, there was times that he would come over, and, then, we would hang out in her house. And then eventually, he wasn' ; t showing up, and one thing led to another, and we fell in love, and you know that was it. And I tell people, no, she took advantage of me. That' ; s what she did, you know. And she' ; s a retired social worker. She worked 32 years. Single parent. She' ; s done a lot for me. I think, you know, I say, if it wasn' ; t for her, I wouldn' ; t be here now because, at one time, I was using. She could have put me out. She could have said, listen, you' ; re a drug addict. I don' ; t want you here. One thing about me, I would never steal. You could trust me with anything. If it' ; s not mines, I don' ; t want it. It' ; s not mine to be taking. And there was times that I would be sick, and I didn' ; t have no money, I' ; d go borrow money or whatever. And she would tell me, " ; you need money?" ; I said, " ; no, I' ; m OK. I' ; m OK. I' ; m OK." ; Then, eventually, I told her one time, I said, listen, you know, I cried, too. I said, " ; listen, I got to go." ; She said, " ; but where are you going?" ; I said, " ; I' ; m going to Alabama. I' ; m going to my mother' ; s house." ; I packed up two briefcases. I took them to my job. I told my boss-- and I was a supervisor, 39 employees. I said, listen-- he said, " ; where are you going?" ; I said, " ; I have to leave." ; And he grew up in the Village, one of my bosses. And he danced for the-- he was in the play, " ; West Side Story." ; So he knew about addicts, AIDS, the gay population, when they were having unsafe sex, and the AIDS, and all that stuff, and drugs. So he knew about all that stuff. So I told him, listen, I got to go away. He says, OK. And I told him, listen, can I get my job? He said, you' ; ll always have a job here. I said, all I need is one favor. I don' ; t want no money, I just need a plane ticket. He called the airport, had a ticket for me. I went to Alabama without a round-trip ticket. Stayed there a couple of months and came back and never looked back again. Stayed clean. Because that drug has taken lives. You know, I remember, back in the days, on 141st Street, one of my friends' ; older brother died, and it was AIDS. And at that time, nobody knew what AIDS was. And people were actually dying. They were saying that they died from either flu, pneumonia, you know, some type of sickness. But the word AIDS was never even mentioned, or they never invented the word AIDS, you know or never knew about the disease. And people were actually dying like flies. And that' ; s what it was. AMY STARECHESKI: When was it that you got sober, about? CHERVONI: OK. [INAUDIBLE] 1990. About I think it was ' ; 93. Yeah. About ' ; 93. AMY STARECHESKI: 25 years. CHERVONI: Yeah. I got friends of mines that are still doing it. And I' ; ve got friends that I helped get into detoxes. They come out, and they stay clean and they, they consider me like their father, like an angel in the sky. And, then, I got friends that I, pff, they did it again. And I told them, " ; listen, don' ; t worry about it." ; It doesn' ; t matter how many times you fall. It matters if you get back up. You got to get back up out of it. And I always told myself, I said, listen, if I go back into it, I' ; d rather put a gun to my head because there' ; s a lot of sick and suffering in that. And if you don' ; t believe me, all you have to do is stand on the corner, or grab a chair, sit somewhere, and you' ; ll see the activity of the addicts in the neighborhoods, where they' ; re homeless, they' ; re stealing, they' ; re hungry, you know. It' ; s terrible. It' ; s terrible. It' ; s terrible. And the government is not helping, you know. It' ; s bad, you know. And I' ; ve heard it a couple of times already, when AIDS came out, and the drugs was heavy, you know it wasn' ; t a disease. Now, there' ; s going upstate all these white kids that are using drugs and taking pills, and, now it' ; s just a disease. And, now, the government wants to give money to help. And I was like, they wouldn' ; t care about us. So now they see how it is when their kids, they start using drugs. AMY STARECHESKI: You said you used to do birthday parties and stuff at Brook Park or the place that' ; s now Brook Park? CHERVONI: Yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: First of all, do you remember when there was buildings there? CHERVONI: Yes. AMY STARECHESKI: And do you remember when the buildings came down? CHERVONI: No, I don' ; t. I' ; m trying to think. No, the only thing I remember is a good-- because my friend lives in one of those matchbox houses. [INAUDIBLE]. So, yeah, those houses, I think they were all put up at least, from 10 to 15 years ago. Yeah. I saw them come in on trailers. They just stack them on top of each other. But I don' ; t-- years ago, the house, the big buildings, they were coming down one at a time. I used to knock them down, too. When the bulldozer would come and take down one of the-- half of the buildings, we would be up in there with these metal bars that used to be between the bricks. And we used to be, like, hitting the bricks and acting like we were construction workers. But I never really remember when the buildings came down. AMY STARECHESKI: When did people first start hanging out there? CHERVONI: Where? AMY STARECHESKI: At Brook Park, or at that land that' ; s now Brook Park? CHERVONI: I found-- because my wife' ; s cousin' ; s-- no, my wife' ; s aunt' ; s son passed away the other day. And so she started going through pictures because they asked for some of his pictures for the funeral this weekend. And I said, pass me some photo albums. I' ; ll go through them. And I started seeing pictures of me, my stepdaughter, and her friend, and my dogs in Brook Park with asphalt. It has the asphalt, and I can see the fake-- what was it? So they a fake train and a firetruck. And what it was, it was just pieces of wood, metal frame, with big truck tires on top of the grass. And the rest of the whole park was all asphalt. I remember the grass was high. And at night, you could hear the addicts, the homeless, stray dogs in there. And there was rats all over the place. So eventually, I used to walk my dogs around the neighborhood. I saw this white guy in the park over there. I was like, what that white guy' ; s doing in that park? And I kept seeing that every day. I went over there, and I saw the guy. And I saw them planting. I said, cool. That' ; s good. That' ; s good for the neighborhood. And then, eventually, I started hanging around. And they invited me. I said, cool. Let me go hang out. Let me go hang out and see what' ; s going on in there. And then eventually I became part of the clan. They were over there planting trees. And then they started getting volunteers, you know, a lot of people. Most of them were white. You know there might be a Spanish guy in there or an African American. And these were nice people, nice, respectable people. And I' ; m like, I' ; m not used to that, you know? I' ; m from the hood. We' ; re used to cursing and not treating people good, you know? And I said, wow, these people are cool, you know. And I started helping them. And I started planting, and planting, and planting. And eventually, Brook Park turned into Friends of Brook Park. And then, we started having parties in there and barbecues and you know turned it into a community garden. AMY STARECHESKI: Who was that white guy? CHERVONI: A guy named Harry. A guy named Harry and a whole bunch of other people. The Botanical Garden got involved. Then, they had CSA, farmers markets. So these are actual people moved, some from the community, some just visiting the community, looking for good energy places like gardens. You know, a park is a park. A park' ; s got swings and see-saws. It' ; s good for the kids. You know, good activities. But gardens are nice because gardens, you have trees, and you can plant vegetables. You have fruit trees. You get to play. And you get to grow things and learn about nature because, eventually, you never know what happens. People need to learn to grow their own vegetables, the food they consume, so they wouldn' ; t have to be buying, and buying, and buying all the time. And it' ; s better and fresher, and it' ; s organic. It don' ; t have all these pesticides on it. So Brook Park was a good thing. It was good that it happened. Need things like that in all the communities instead of, there' ; s a lot, and, all of a sudden, you think about a garden, next thing you know, you go to sleep and wake up, and there' ; s a building there. And the Bronx needs a lot of trees to clean all this-- filterize the air and the pollution that we' ; re breathing in. AMY STARECHESKI: I know you' ; ve probably got to go. I don' ; t want to take too much of your time, but I have, like, two more questions. Is that OK? CHERVONI: Sure. AMY STARECHESKI: OK. You mentioned the matchbox houses. CHERVONI: Yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: Tell me about the matchbox houses. Like, when did they start? What did you think about them? Who lives in them? CHERVONI: So I was on 140, where I live. And I started seeing these trailers coming in. I' ; m like, what' ; s going on? And then I realized they were parking on 141st Street. And these were houses. And they were, like, just like boxes, but they would actually stack them on top of each other. And these are those houses that they' ; re asking $300,000, $400,000 for. I don' ; t know what' ; s the price now. But I wouldn' ; t live because I' ; ve been in them. And you can hear everything. You can hear people walking, talking. So what they did, they stacked them on top of each other. And they have-- people think that they' ; re very sturdy, they' ; re expensive, they' ; re good quality, and they' ; re not. They got bricks on the outside, and they' ; re not actually bricks. They call it, what is it, face-- brick face or something. And the bricks, it' ; s not even a brick. It' ; s like a tile. And it' ; s like a 1/2-inch tile. And what they do, they actually glue them on and put mortar between them like grout and make it look like a brick house, when it' ; s not actually brick. And they stacked them up, and they put them on 141st Street from the garden all the way towards Willis Avenue. So those are the new houses they' ; re putting up all over the neighborhood, wherever there' ; s space. And, now they' ; re upgrading. They' ; re doing something else. I don' ; t know what it is, but they' ; re not looking the same anymore. So we call them matchboxes. They look like a little box of matches. The wooden matches would come in a little, sAmy Starecheskiuare box. AMY STARECHESKI: Who put them up? Do you know? CHERVONI: No. I used to think, too there' ; s-- On 141st, they set this up. Because every time we try to do something, it' ; s funny how they built 30 houses on the block and not one tree. There' ; s not even one tree on the sidewalk. But there' ; s a manhole cover in front of every house with electrical wires, I don' ; t know probably for cable or whatever it is, [INAUDIBLE], whatever. But not one tree. And, then, across the street, you can see the old trees that have been in the neighborhood for a lot of years. Supposedly, there' ; s an organization that runs those houses. I don' ; t know who it is. But, it' ; s terrible. They just buy up land from the city, and then they do whatever they want to do. That' ; s why it' ; s good when the community gets involved and has these meetings to find out who' ; s moving into the neighborhood and what they plan to do because the neighborhood needs what the neighborhood needs. Like they be talking Oh, yeah affordable housing. Come on. People have to make at least $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Families out here are not making that much money, you know. I' ; ve got a friend of mine, he' ; s trying to get an apartment. He makes too much, and he' ; s not making enough money. So how does that work? It' ; s terrible. AMY STARECHESKI: What kind of people moved into the matchboxes? CHERVONI: So you have-- the price must' ; ve been pretty cheap. They have Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, African Americans. They got Jamaicans. I don' ; t think there' ; s a white person that owns one of those houses, but there' ; s white people that live in them because they' ; re two-family houses. So what happens is-- two-family houses. No, no, no. Wait up-- one, two. They' ; re actually, yeah, it' ; s two-family houses. But some of the houses, there' ; s not actually a third family, but maybe a couple living, which it would be like probably a two-family house slash studio in some of the houses because I do have some white friends that live in some of those houses. Yeah. But it' ; s not that many white people. AMY STARECHESKI: People who live in those houses, do they mix with everybody else? Do they hang out? CHERVONI: Not really. No. I see them come and go like every morning, taking the train and everything. Yeah. No. It' ; s like they needed a place to move in. Then, you got the people with big money, it' ; s like um, you know, they don' ; t want to rent an apartment. They want a house. So they come and they buy people out. I had this guy one time, I was on the block, and he was a Black guy-- African American. And he tells me, he gives me a business card. And I said, " ; what' ; s up?" ; He says, " ; nah, you know anybody selling their house?" ; I said, " ; what do you mean?" ; He says, " ; yeah, we buy houses." ; And I looked at the card, and I said, " ; wait a minute, who buys houses, you?" ; He says, " ; no. My boss." ; I said, " ; your boss is white, right?" ; He says, " ; yeah." ; I said, " ; aw. So they sent a black man down here into a Spanish-black neighborhood and try to get houses, right? I bet you your boss is a white, Jewish guy, right?" ; And he looked at me, like, oh, like, he didn' ; t want to get no more into it. And he just walked away. I said, you see, they got you doing the dirty work, man, just coming here, you know, like, people really don' ; t want to sell their houses. But when they get the money offered, it' ; s like they don' ; t want to deal with the house no more, so they take the money and move on. And, eventually, they have to rent or buy something else. AMY STARECHESKI: Do you have many friends that have been around here all along like you have? CHERVONI: Yes, I have, yeah. They' ; re like in the woodwork. Every once in a while, I see a couple of them. A lot of them are like, you know, they got jobs, families, you know. They' ; re doing real good. And then I got a bunch of them that are still in the streets, still with the drugs and thinking it' ; s still cool. I tell them, I say, " ; listen, the drugs now, it' ; s killing people." ; Years ago, it was real drugs. You bought some drugs, you got high, you was nice. Now, it' ; s like, it does different things to you. It drives you crazy. It' ; s like, you start hallucinating, or you get violent. You know, it' ; s no. I remember, one time, there was drugs coming from, they said it was, they were using horse tranquilizers. And, then, [? Spanish ?] guys would all say, yeah, that' ; s the same thing they' ; re using in Puerto Rico. You know it' ; s crazy. And crushed pills. The epidemic is crazy with the drugs. And, then, they got this thing called K2. People are smoking this artificial weed. And the government' ; s letting it in. AMY STARECHESKI: This is the last thing I want to-- I' ; m sure I' ; ll think of more stuff later, but you said that you played the trombone when you were a kid? CHERVONI: Yes. AMY STARECHESKI: And you were a DJ? CHERVONI: I used to play the trombone in Burger Junior High School. Yeah. There' ; s no music class no more there. There' ; s no music. The printing class is over. This thing with the schools and the charter schools and these-- oh, come on, please. Just better the schools, not just, like, stop supporting them and then do something else. Support the teachers. But yeah, I used to be in a band, played trombone. I kind of did DJing because, I think it was my older brother, he always used to play. He was a Vietnam vet. And he always listened to music like the Beatles. And there' ; s a whole bunch of old music. I can' ; t even get the words out. But, yeah, I think I got it from my brother. And, also, from hanging out with the DJs, like, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Run-DMC, [INAUDIBLE] and all that, all those rappers and the DJs. So you start wanting to DJ. I remember my DJ equipment, oh, it was-- so years ago, they had this-- I think it was called a component. I forgot what it was. So it would be a big box with a TV, speakers built in, a radio, a record player in the inside. So we used to find them on the street. We used to take the record players out. And then the record players wasn' ; t in a box. So we would take the record player, and take it, and put it on top of four cans of soup. We would put it on top of four cans of soup. You could see all the wires hanging on the bottom. And then we would find a mixer, which it wasn' ; t a DJ mixer, it was a microphone mixer, where you could plug in some mics, so it would be small. And we' ; d have the two turntables on top of cans of soup under a little mixer. And then the speakers we had, they weren' ; t in boxes. So we only had the actual speakers. But we would put a chain on it. And if we threw a party in the house, you know the parents didn' ; t care, so we would put a couple of nails on the window frames up there and hang the speakers up there with chains, and just DJ in your house, throw parties. We used to throw a lot of hooky parties. Like, don' ; t go to school, and we would meet in a certain area. And we' ; d all be playing hooky, and playing music, and having a good time. And then eventually, I started liking DJing. I started getting my own equipment. And then my little brother use to borrow my equipment. And then one time, they robbed him for all my equipment. And I was selling drugs back in the day, so I told him, " ; no, don' ; t worry about it. I' ; ll buy you some equipment." ; So my brother grew up with four other guys. And they all started DJing. And a couple of them are professionals. They call themselves the Wiz Kids. So they actually are-- play, they DJ live. They DJ live. They' ; re on the internet, you know. So we were talking about going online, and they say, oh, on the chat room, say, we have-- they used to call me Disco D because I loved the disco music, you know. And they used to say, the founder of the Wiz Kids, you know. So I love music. It calms the beast in me. I need it. You know, there' ; s times I might not feel good. I go upstairs and put on my music. Even my little Bose speaker that my friend Jakai gave me for Christmas. So I love my music. I love it. You know, music is good. It soothes the mind. It makes your relax and think about life AMY STARECHESKI: You said you remember seeing Grandmaster Flash and being around for that. CHERVONI: Yeah, there was a lot of DJs in the parks. Like, you could hear-- like, right now, you could go online, or watch, they' ; ll be like, yeah, let' ; s take it to the park. And they' ; ll play the old music that used to be played in the parks. And there would be, like every day, there would be in one of the parks, there would be DJs DJing. Now, it' ; s hard. You can' ; t-- you actually have to go to the park with a posse, you know, with a bunch of friends in case there' ; s any trouble. Back in the days, we would go to different-- from park to park. People would be drinking, and smoking, and dancing, and having a good time. And every once in a while, they' ; d have an open mic, and rappers, and some of the girls would have competition and dancing and you know it was nice. It was nice back in the days, you know. And, now, it' ; s like-- and people did it for fun. Now, like-- people, it was like showing off. Yeah, I' ; m going to go to the park and DJ, just to show off your equipment, how you played, and the crowd you drew. But now it' ; s all about money. Now it' ; s all about money. It' ; s a big business in it now. AMY STARECHESKI: I' ; m sure there' ; ll be more, but is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or anything that I should have asked you about that I didn' ; t? CHERVONI: Let me see here. AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS] CHERVONI: No. Not really. It' ; s like when you go shopping. You think you bought everything, but you didn' ; t. [LAUGHTER] You buy all the food, and you get ready to make a lasagna, and you say, where' ; s the meat? [CHUCKLES] AMY STARECHESKI: That is exactly what it' ; s like. Luckily, I see you all the time, so we can always do more if you don' ; t mind. CHERVONI: So if you don' ; t make a shopping list, you' ; re in trouble. AMY STARECHESKI: I know there' ; s going to be something. CHERVONI: It' ; s nice. It' ; s OK. You can always do the cut-- [LAUGHTER] --and start over. AMY STARECHESKI: Take two. CHERVONI: Take two and start all over again. Yeah. Part 1, 2, 3. AMY STARECHESKI: All right. Well, thank-- I really appreciate you doing this. I know you-- CHERVONI: Oh, you' ; re welcome. AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah. I appreciate it. And I' ; ll send you the tape. You can give it to your kids if you want, or your wife, or just keep it. And, yeah, I' ; ll keep you posted as I keep working with the audio. CHERVONI: Life in the hood is an experience. You know, when life-- life anywhere. Life anywhere is an experience. Especially when you' ; ve been there a lot of years, and a lot of years, and lot of years. AMY STARECHESKI: I' ; ve been thinking about this a lot because, I mean, I' ; ve only been here for 20 years. But it feels-- you know, it' ; s half my life. CHERVONI: Wow, you' ; ve been here 20. AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah. CHERVONI: Wow. AMY STARECHESKI: But, you know, it' ; s like, when you walk around, it' ; s like you' ; re in the present, but you' ; re also-- like, I' ; m always seeing how stuff used to be, or remember something that happened to me on this corner or that corner, and there start to be so many layers to every place, of how it is now, how it was five years ago, that thing that happened to you 10 years. CHERVONI: Yeah, yeah. It' ; s like on 149th Street, there used to be a train that used to come out from underground. It used to come from underground and come up and go up. The Bronx has a lot of things that have been taken down. You actually have to, like-- I think, not on this phone, but on my other phone, I have a picture of 141st Street, the whole 141st from Brook Avenue to Willis. And all the buildings are there. The school is there. The church is there. But you can see the cars. And the cars are from the ' ; 50s, the ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s. They' ; re like big-- they look like big tanks. AMY STARECHESKI: When you walk down Brook Avenue or down 138th Street, what is like? CHERVONI: I don' ; t like it. You' ; ve been to the Puerto Rican Theater? [INAUDIBLE] AMY STARECHESKI: With the church? CHERVONI: Yeah. That was our theater. AMY STARECHESKI: I' ; ve never been in there. CHERVONI: Yeah, that was a theat-- AMY STARECHESKI: On Brown Place? CHERVONI: That' ; s a theater. So we used to go in through the front, or we used to sneak in through the back. Yeah, they used to call it the Puerto Rican Theater. Yeah. Also, like People' ; s Park. People' ; s Park, we used to have Willie Colón, Celia Cruz. The big bands used to come there. Tito Puente. Yeah, so you know. We used to have a lot of concerts in that park. We' ; d be sitting there rolling joints in front of the police. [CHUCKLES] So it was joints. Those days were nice. They were cool. They were cool. You know-- I was talking to my brother, my brother who lives in Florida. And he' ; s ex-military, retired, post office, retired. You know when the neighborhoods are good when we had police on the beat. They weren' ; t riding around in cars, on their cell phones. They were actually walking the block. And we knew all the police officers. They were like-- not like family, but like friends. Like, they knew us. You know, we always saw them. That' ; s when the neighborhoods were good. Now, it' ; s like, they just ride by. Somebody could-- things could be happening. They' ; re just riding by. Those were the good old days. AMY STARECHESKI: I was talking to Carol [INAUDIBLE] about what it' ; s like being a white person in this neighborhood. And, you know, I feel like I' ; m never invisible. You know, like, everyone always notices me. They notice me different now than they did 20 years ago. But I never feel like I' ; m just kind of part of everything. Do you know what I mean? CHERVONI: Yeah. Oh, yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: But I feel like also, from what I' ; ve seen of walking around with you, like, everybody knows you. You' ; re not invisible either. But I' ; m asking what it' ; s like to walk around here in part because I just imagine that your experience is really different than mine. CHERVONI: Oh, yeah. AMY STARECHESKI: I mean, being a man, and being Puerto Rican, and being from here. CHERVONI: Yeah. Yes. AMY STARECHESKI: Versus being a white woman. CHERVONI: One thing I will not commit is a crime. AMY STARECHESKI: [LAUGHS] CHERVONI: They will get me. [CHUCKLES] They will get me. [LAUGHTER] AMY STARECHESKI: Yeah, you' ; re not going to hide around here. CHERVONI: I' ; m not doing nothing. I' ; m messing. I' ; m not even jaywalking. No. Yeah. Yeah, but you know I feel-- you know, me being sobered for so many years and doing a lot of positive things in the community and everything, I feel it. And for people like you, you know, it' ; s terrible. It' ; s terrible. You know, in a good way and in a bad way. But I can see where you' ; re coming from, where, you know, you feel different. But, then, after a while, I don' ; t know if you get over it or not. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you can' ; t. AMY STARECHESKI: What do you mean when you say, it' ; s terrible. CHERVONI: You know, the way people judge people and all this. Like, I' ; m in Brook Park, and I' ; m on the block. It' ; s like people, you know, a white guy comes in. I said, " ; welcome, come on in. Don' ; t just stand there. Go inside the garden." ; It' ; s not like, yeah, what the hell is that white guy doing here? The fuck is-- you know, [INAUDIBLE] getting out. Is he a cop, or is he a landlord or somebody? No. My only thing is if he' ; s one of the kufi, all right? If he' ; s Jewish, then, I know he' ; s trying to buy something. He' ; s trying to buy the community and get us out. Raise the rent. Yeah, it' ; s like, some people want to be judges. AMY STARECHESKI: At the same time, I don' ; t think white people have a great track record around here. So I don' ; t judge anyone for judging, or certainly not for noticing. But I also-- yeah. CHERVONI: Yeah, but as far as the track record, I don' ; t see it as bad because it' ; s not like some white guy came and bought up the neighborhood, moved everybody out. You know, white people are moving into the neighborhood. And it' ; s cool when you see-- like you, mother, father, the kids. That' ; s cool. A nice family. But, now, you see one person by himself, and most of the time And they' ; re walking around, got a suit on or whatever, looking around, taking pictures. These guys are looking to buy up something. He' ; s taking pictures of the neighborhood, taking them back to his office. Look. " ; Look, what I found. Yo, look at this building. Maybe we can buy this, buy that." ; That' ; s different. That' ; s my judging, you know that I could tell-- I try to see the difference, you know, split them up. But as far as you know like, every white person is not coming in here to move us out. They' ; re just looking for an affordable place to live and then a good place for their kids, you know, a good environment. AMY STARECHESKI: [CHUCKLES] All right. Well thank you, Danny. Anything else you want to add? CHERVONI: You' ; re welcome. When do bars open? AMY STARECHESKI: I know. [LAUGHS] audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Chervoni_20180314.xml Chervoni_20180314.xml
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Bronx, NY
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Danny Chervoni Oral History Interview
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2018-03-14
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audio
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Daniel (Danny) Chervoni was born in Williamsburg, Brooklyn in 1956 and moved to Mott Haven in the mid-1960s. His parents were both from Puerto Rico, and he had ten brothers and sisters. He grew up playing in the rivers, backyards and playgrounds of Mott Haven, attending PS 49 and Alexander Burger Intermediate School, where he played trombone in the band and worked on the newspaper. His mother worked at Harlem Hospital and owned a grocery store on 141st Street and his father was a super and worked at a hotel in Manhattan. He dropped out of school in 11th grade, served in the Marines for three years, and became involved with the drug trade when he came back to Mott Haven. He was imprisoned several times and was a heroin addict until he got sober in 1993. He is a DJ and was involved in the early days of South Bronx hip hop. Danny worked for a company that made antique reproductions for seventeen years, and then a company that made Christmas ornaments, until he recently retired. He has been with his wife, a social worker, since 1990, and has three children and four grandchildren. He runs Brook Park, a community garden known for its educational and alternative to incarceration programs, urban farming, and indigenous ceremonies. Brook Park is also a beloved play space for the newest generation of Mott Haven children, who love Danny’s stories about the old days.
Description
An account of the resource
In the interview Danny Chervoni discusses growing up in poverty as one of 11 children in New York City, his drug addiction and recovery, and his childhood memories in parks with his friends and hearing some early hip hop’s most famous MC’s. Particular detail is given to his heroine addiction, working with addiction, how it affected his relationships, and how drugs in general affected his community. He also discusses his involvement with the redevelopment of the neighborhood and Brook Park and its impact on gentrification and displacement.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Norman Davis
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https://www.motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Davis_20070902.xml
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5.4 September 2, 2007 Davis_20070902 2:38:35 Columbia Oral History MA Program Norman Davis Amy Starecheski Davis_Norman_20070902 0 https://soundcloud.com/oralhistory_columbia/davis_norman_20070902?in=oralhistory_columbia/sets/norman-davis-and-thelma-jackson SoundCloud OHMA.Columbia audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/561054057& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 1 Introductions Story of name, getting father's middle name - O stands for Oliver. Went back for generations to his grandfather, tradition of incorporating father's first name as the son's middle name. 90 Birthplace Born in 1925 at Harlem Hospital in Manhattan 106 Father's family background Father’s family from Middleton, SC, on both sides - that's who he knows the most about. His great-grandparents lived in Edgefield, Strom Thurmond’s hometown. Great-grandfather had a tremendous farm, 2 or 3 city blocks - Norman remembers visiting when he was 10. The back of the house was still woods. Lived well - could read and write, although that was prohibited at that time. All of his ten children went to school - Norman's grandfather was the youngest. 256 Family Troubadours Grandfather played the guitar, his brother (13 years older than Norman's grandfather) played the fiddle, played for both blacks and whites. Family were well known troubadours in the area. When they played for whites, exchanged music for dry goods. Ate same food as guests ate, only in the kitchen. When they played for blacks, expected to play all night into the morning. Got last week’s leftovers, if anything, to eat. Grandfather shot in forehead at one of these events, blinded. 420 Delarge family: Paternal grandmother’s side Related to one of first black Senators - Robert Carlos Delarge - from SC, who was elected but not allowed to serve. Hattie/Het: great-grandmother, had Norman's grandmother as an unmarried teenager at 16. The father was from a well known, educated family - he was sent away to Amherst College in Boston to separate them as she was below his station. Norman's grandmother never learned to read or write. The father came to visit periodically. 598 Norman's mother - her background and faith Norman's mother born in Baltimore - Florence Marie Simms. Norman's grandmother died when mother was 2 yrs old - so mother was sent to a convent. Aunt took her home, age 7. Catholic background always stayed with her - very moral and believed in faith. Norman shares his mother’s faith. Feel that he never loses, is a winner - if you're doing right and the best you can and God can't bring you thought difficult circumstances then you're doing something wrong. Doesn't see himself as lucky - says that its not luck, but fortune, which we control. Mother's father left her when she was young, never bothered with her until she was 16 - urging her to come up. He had another wife. It's a happy reunion, but then he dies within two weeks. Stepmother never kept in touch after that - lost contact with the four half siblings. Moves to Atlantic City, works on boardwalk as hotel chambermaid. Mother’s father’s sister named Annie Simms - she was the " ; Talk of Baltimore" ; . 6 illegitimate children, 6 different men. One of her daughters, named Grace, marries a man who worked for post office (prestigious job). Grace was his mother’s first cousin. Opens 5 beauty shops in Brooklyn and went to Apex Beauty School - lives well. Norman's mother came to NYC to live with them. Grace took his mother to a matchmaker in Harlem who introduces her to Oliver Samuel Davis, his father. 1202 Parents meeting Mother stammered, and had an injured hand, since an accident age 13. Parents married and when they went to see his family, they were not enthusiastic. They were both young, 18 and 19 respectively. He was just up from the South, and she wasn’t from the South. His mother, a dominant, aggressive person, says directly that she doesn’t approve. Grace warns Florence not to marry him because of his mother. They were living in 351 (E 136th St), where Norman's great grandmother died in 1935, when he was ten. Called her “Ma.” Ma was the product of slaveowner and cook - she married James Davis. He was the super of the apt. house, they lived in the basement, cleaned and whitewashed. Got the second place nextdoor too, with an airshaft between, for mother and father. 1459 Parent's seperation Hattie claimed her mother abandoned her " ; like a cat" ; , but later it emerges that she’d chosen not to stay with her mother. She was always in his mother’s business, stifled his father and his initiative. Had a habit of telling father that he knew nothing. Mother hated living with Norman's grandmother - Norman thinks it's because she was jealous of how beautiful his mother was and that because she wasn't from the south she wasn't as easy to dominate. Mother left father, age 6, took Norman, father didn’t find them for a year. Moved from Mott Haven to East Side, 105th St. and 2nd Ave - beginning of Siciliano territory. Cold water flat, second floor, bathroom in hall, heat only from stove. Mother was a conscientious worker, she had learned that at the convent. Raised Norman alone. Mother did day work, 1930 during the Great Depression, waited at Fordham Rd. and Concourse at 8am to be picked by Jewish ladies to clean their apartments. 25 cents/hour - for everything, windows, floors and sheets. Brought tears to his eyes, sounded to him like slave auction, she always said she did it for him. She then worked for Zimmermans downtown, on Barrow St., in Village, who had an apartment, and a deli on Hudson St. Worked for women at Green Gardens, and in Hudson St. deli, and cleaning for the Zimmermans. He got to eat at the deli – pastrami etc.. – played with children there. Got hand me downs from building that the elevator men saved for her, so he had nice things. Undertaker on ground floor of Norman's building on 105th St. - protected them. Showed mother “double decker caskets” for hiding one body under another - Siciliano mafia. 2156 Moving to Mott Haven Grandparents and father moved to 136th, b/w 3rd and Rider which was a dead end. 6 houses on the block - 5 on South side, one big building on north – Fox Calcimine company. Grandparents used to live on the first floor - Mother took him every weekend to see his father there, still tense relationship between mother and grandmother. Played with Delarge cousins, was close in age to a few of them and grew up together. On the same black lived the Moores (Thelma Jackson's family) - everyone feared the father. Saw tense relationships in Mott Haven between islanders and American blacks. Islanders had to learn a trade under British rule so could get better jobs than blacks. 2330 Changes in Mott Haven At that time, there was no Major Deegan Highway and no projects - all brownstones. Mostly German and Irish people in the area. 138th was the hub of Mott Haven. Going to 149th St. like going to 125th st. There was a dumpy movie house at 138th and Alexander, called the Haven. Better theater at 149th - learned to sneak in. In the block his grandmother lived on, there was a lot. Houses grandmother lived in owned by Italian woman, Miss Monzola. Behind that, just the water, wooden planks, fishing. Junks in Hong Kong reminded him of areas between River and Canal, full of barges, they played there. Sat at night on loading dock of Fox’s. 2570 Meeting Thelma Jackson Thelma [Jackson] older, not in his group. Her father a carpenter from Panama, spoke Spanish. He played with her siblings, and only became friends more recently. One of her brother's daughters was singing at a church downtown and that where they reconnected. Had dinner at a nice restaurant on Amsterdam and 160th - Thelma's granddaughter thought they made a cute couple. 2727 Tale of Two Cities Different lives on weekend and week moving between East Side and Mott Haven. Didn’t make friends at home, because he was not around on weekends. 2785 Grand Concourse Behind Norman's grandparents house were the freight yards that would unload a lot for the Hunts Point market. Ran away to them once, but got spooked and returned home - " ; maybe you'll run away next week" ; . Got first bicycle at 14, began to ride up Grand Concourse, which was impeccable. Jewish ladies and some men sat outside on deck chairs. No debris, no vendors. His cousins got bikes too. Sometimes stayed with Grace, who had sold 5 shops and opened one on the East Side. Began teaching his mother the trade. He made her a homemade revolving chair after taking carpentry at school - was very proud of his creation. Mother then ran Ideal Beauty Shop - in partnership with Grace - for 40 years, mum must have struggled to do hair with her hand injury. He lived well, had first radio in neighborhood. 3168 Death of Great-Grandfather When great-grandfather died the property left to all children, cash was given to blind grandfather, who used the money to go back down South. Norman went to visit over the summer, they had a chauffer (Son), big house, beautiful furniture, chinaware, like Caucasians. People warned him crackers wouldn’t like it. House was burned to the ground, grandfather had to come back to NYC and go on welfare for rest of life. " ; no man is an island." ; Family lived in the first project on the east side - 440 E 105th. 3381 “The Coast” Moved to East Harlem where from the river to Park Ave was the slum area, called “the coast”. From Park to 5th was “over the bridge.” - the dividing line. They lived on the coast and eventually moved over the bridge, right next to Central Park. Union Settlement House, 104th b/w 2nd and 3rd. Director, Mr. Wald, Norman called him “the suit,” took him as his protégé. they were fighting for better housing. He got to be the spokesman on visit to Mayor LaGuardia. When the projects came, they used eminent domain and broke up the neighborhood, where he used to know everyone from the river to 5th. Mother stammered, so he spoke for her, often. She was intelligent and has a zest for life, but wasn't taken seriously and was told she was stupid. Was his first interest in words and how she would avoid certain words because they would cause her to stammer, then reading intently and voraciously. 3807 Junior High School and Norman's teenage years In Junior High School on the East Side, Norman was brilliant but mischievous according to his teachers. Loved to dance, star of school play, " ; Johnny know it all" ; . Between 16 and 19, they used to call him dictionary. Black folks used to put on African garb to be allowed into places where African Americans not allowed. If you speak well, whites will take you in, show you to their friends. Norman read the Bible and the dictionary all the way through. Didn't like arithmetic. Wanted to be a court sonographer. Took a shorthand typing course. Went to dance lessons in Mott Haven, hitched rides on trolley and 2nd ave el. His world completely changed when they built the projects. There was an Italian grocery down by Lincoln ave, amazing sandwiches. Chinese laundry on 3rd ave where dunkin donuts is now - offered day labour, hard work. Everyone from 136th St. went there to work, even his mom once before she owned the business. 4360 Norman and Columbia Field Mother moved up by City College. - 138th and Amsterdam, near Lewisohn Stadium. He had married by then - Norman says that a whole other story – wife had him arrested b/c she wanted to get rid of him. Worked on 110th at Columbia Field. Made Asst. Gardener in Parks in Nov. 1956. 1957 Columbia opened a field at Morningside Ave: field house, track, football/baseball fields. Got sent there to work b/c he “sounded like a college man.” James H. Young ran the field, first black professional he ever met. Taught him to calculate scores, report to Amsterdam News, taught him geometry to mark fields (the 3-4-5 rule). 4658 Building Major Deegan/fighting as a child Grandmother moved out of the Bronx, but before that the whole area was private houses. Pharmacy on 138th and Willis served as doctor unless you were about to die - " ; everything but the last rites" ; . Very few people came out of the hospital. Lincoln Hospital was over by 145th and Bruckner, he went there for his back when young. Norman used to build model airplanes as a child. Projects ruined the area. To build Major Deegan, they filled in the river and took some houses. Piled dirt three stories high, as wide as a block, from excavations. They’d play Zorro on it, and flew kites. No buildings over there, kites could take off and surge. Remembers fighting some Irish children with his cousin, biting and hitting with belts, they were the only blacks in the school. Downtown, in East Harlem was made up of Italian, Black, sprinkling of Jews. No FDR then - just piers where the ships would come in. Would take little red wagon from 2nd Avenue to the piers and wait for coal ships to come in, collect dropped coal from the shoots to bring home. No gangs - just clean fun. Bought a hotdog and root beer for lunch with the nickel his mother would give him for collecting coal. 5017 Bureaucratic Indifference Remembers being prepared for education at Union Settlement, learning to pronounce and enunciate. Reflects on great grandmother's death - death certificate had wrong age (65 instead of 91). Bureaucratic indifference to details of poor people’s lives, compares it to The Godfather. 5249 Story of Norman's current house Came to be in the current house because friend of mother’s bought property in Long Island. Mother invested in it. No lights, no roads, no water. They moved out there, ordered army barracks from SC, 1947, for $200-$300 dollars - 16x16. People called it “Florence’s Folly.” But they got a carpenter to put it up. Hired him for $50 a day. Mother and carpenter became a couple, for 20 yrs. Added smaller one for him, 10ft x 6, added bathroom and another room so it was L shaped. Norman lived in the same house as mother on Amsterdam Ave. new superintendent there ruined the boiler, no heat and hot water all winter. HUD advertising houses. They recognize the address of their current house in their old neighborhood. Someone had burned down their Long Island houses, and they got insurance money which they used to buy the house they're now in. 5625 HUD First come first served at HUD: come with the money, it’s yours. Sturdy house, hadn’t had a fire. $8500, in cash. Went to Joralemon St. in Bklyn and bought it. Needed roof, floors, ceilings. friend, master of all trades, basement full of tools: hired as contractor. House is a mansion! New electrical, new plumbing. Someone tried to sell him back the boiler he’d stolen from the house. 00 had been buying bonds, saving all his raises, had saved $12,000 that way. Had some money from buying and selling stocks. Cost $50,000 to fix house. Now worth $800,000 - " ; that ain't bad!" ; . house next door torn down, lot used by community, now new houses there. 6031 Working for the Parks Department Started as Attendant for Parks Department, which was the lowest job in civil service - $160 a month, Stayed 32 yrs and worked his way up, became trainer. Got high school diploma, degree, and Masters. 6135 Davis family farm Was owning a farm usual for African Americans? During WW2 it was used as a landing field. Was owned by his great grandfather. He had a wooden leg from being kicked by a horse - which is how he got the money to buy the farm. 6206 Civil War stories Norman's uncle was a carpenter who said he helped rebuild fort sumpter. Used to shoot birds, was a skilled marksman - " ; crackshot of Edgefield" ; . Grandfather had a car, and lived well until his house was burned down. He knew everything about the family and an encyclopedic memory and knowledge of baseball. Doesn't know how grandfather was able to learn instruments and became so well read. Davis is a known name in South Carolina - big family. Lost farm through lapsed taxes - whoever lived the longest got the property. Grandmother wouldn't let Norman's mother buy it out of spite. Father should have gotten it and it could have been Norman's. Norman want to go to SC and see the court records and learn more about it. 6609 Davis family and New York Norman's father came to New York in the 20s as part of the migration from the south. First went to Detroit, then to New York on the Underground Railroad. Doesn't know why they ended up in the Bronx. Norman recalls Amos and Andy - has fond memories of their radio show. Love of wordplay 6937 Norman's difficult birth Norman was injured at birth and couldn’t walk until after 18 months, used to slide along the floor. Mother insisted, against grandmother’s advice, on taking him to doctor. Grandmother said it was god's will. After a week at the doctors he was able to stand - but never went back so his vertebrae still misaligned. Used to bind himself up in sheets to keep his back aligned - still loved to dance. 7034 Playing Cards family played whist, which Causasians called bridge. Mother taught him to play. Played with grownups, and at Morningside Park with co-workers - Won 81 games in a row, for 7 weeks! 7378 Parents reconciliation When the block closed, cousins moved up around 149th st. riding bikes to orchard beach, streets were clean, houses had doormen. used to make model airplanes. enjoyed the life in Mott Haven, but was sad in east Harlem because no one really knew him because he wasn't around at the weekends to play with the other children. Mother was very proud of him, encouraged him and was a good mother - taught him love. She wore hand me down clothes and clothes from social services. Father was on welfare. Everyone wore same plaid welfare suit, went to musty warehouse to get them. Mother caring for father after they separated, because she loved him. And she didn’t want Norman wearing welfare suit. Eddie Lockjaw Davis – musician – lived on next block from them, practiced sax on the roof. His mother told Norman’s mother where to get affordable custom suits. 7851 Trouble at 16 Got in some trouble at 16, dropped out of school - was with someone who killed someone. The boy that did it was 12, the one who died was 15. He was the only one convicted as an adult. He didn’t know any better, but learned his lesson. His mother never turned her back on him. Never caused her any more trouble, and went on to make him proud until the end. 8024 After release After release, went to night school for 5 years at Washington Irving, got GED. Encouraged to get college-track degree. Many years later, DC37 hired him to train people to prepare for promotion, at Washington Irving. Taught arithmetic. Was married to to a paranoid schizophrenic, a nightmare 8947 Randall’s Island tennis Experiences as supervisor of the courts at 93rd and Central Park West. Brough order to the Randall’s Island tennis courts, managing through strictly enforcing rules. 32 courts at Central Park - the Wimbledon of NYC courts. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Davis_20070902.xml Davis_20070902.xml
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Bronx, NY
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Norman Davis Oral History Interview
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2007-09-02
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audio
Subject
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Norman Oliver Davis was born in 1925 and grew up in Harlem and Mott Haven. His family migrated to New York City from the South and came to Mott Haven by the early 1930s, working as supers for a building at 351 East 136th Street, where they lived in the basement. His family later lived on 136th Street between Third Avenue and Rider Avenue, where there were several black families in a small cluster of tenement buildings. In 1942 he was sent to Elmira Reformatory for allegedly being involved in the stabbing of a white boy during a mugging. He dropped out of high school but then got his GED at age 30. He began working for the Parks Department as an attendant in 1956, and worked there until he retired in 1988, becoming a leader in his union, DC 37, and helping to found the Parks Department’s Ebony Society. In 1981, he bought and renovated a large rowhouse at 440 East 136th Street, where he lived until his death in 2010.
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Davis was born in 1925 and was 82 at the time of this recording. He discusses his family’s roots as landowners in in South Carolina (paternal) and Baltimore (maternal) and his parents’ journeys to Harlem and Brooklyn. He discusses tensions between Northern and Southern Blacks. When he was a child his family lived at 351 East 136th St and on 105th St in East Harlem. His mother did cleaning work for families on the Grand Concourse and then ran Ideal Beauty Shop. He describes Mott Haven in the 1930s, in particular the Black community on 136th Street between Canal and Rider, including work, play, and ethnic conflict, both between Caribbean and American Blacks and between German and Irish residents. Topics include hitching rides on trolleys, playing around the canal, the building of the Major Deegan Expressway and the projects, collecting stray coal. He talks about his encounters with the criminal justice system and his career with the Parks Department and tells the story of buying and renovating his current home on 136th Street in 1981 for $8500 from HUD.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Norman Davis
Thelma Jackson
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Davis_and_Jackson_20070909.xml
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5.4 September 9, 2007 Davis_and_Jackson_20070909 02:47:25 Columbia Oral History MA Program Norman Davis Thelma Jackson Amy Starecheski Davis_Norman_and_Jackson_Thelma_20070909 0 https://soundcloud.com/oralhistory_columbia/davis_norman_and_jackson_thelm?in=oralhistory_columbia/sets/norman-davis-and-thelma-jackson SoundCloud OHMA.Columbia video < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/561054051& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Introductions Interviewing Davis and Jackson, September 9th 2007. Thelma Jackson's maiden name is Moore. Second session with Mr. Davis, first with Ms. Jackson. 51 Thelma Jackson's parents Born in Pennsylvania, both parents immigrants. Father arrived in 1917 from Cuba with goal of becoming a civil engineer, had worked on the Panama Canal. He was fluent in Spanish, stronger than English. Paid less than Caucasians because he was of African decent - silver vs. gold. Arrived in America, tried to get into Cooper Union and wasn't accepted. Father met mother through mothers brother, arranged marriage. Mother knew nothing about father prior to marriage. 217 Thelma's Early Life and Moving to NYC Thelma was the first of 10 children, born in Philadelphia, moved to NYC when she was three months old. Lived in San Juan Hill. Majority of residents were from the Caribbean, of African descent, spoke English & ; French. Describes it as a " ; self sufficient" ; neighborhood - two doctors, two midwives, a drug store, a dry goods store. Lived there until the depression, after that people scattered. Her family moved to Harlem (142nd Street), from there moved around for a time before settling in The Bronx (136th Street). 311 Moving to 136th Street and living in a cold water flat Cold water flat - no hot water, no heat. No toilet facilities in the apartment, communal ones in the hall. No bathroom, bathtub in the kitchen. Stayed there for a while. She had 3 brothers and 2 sisters - 3 of her siblings were born in 136th street. 6 buildings on the block - one was entirely white, mainly Italian. There was a saloon on the corner across the street, recalls a commotion that occurred with Mr. Davis. 562 Difference between The Bronx and El Barrio 136th Street totally different from El Barrio, the black people that lived there were mainly African American whereas the black people in El Barrio were from the Caribbean and Central/South America. Norman notes that the black people who lived in the Bronx were originally from the south. The Caribbean folks would fight other people, didn't care who. Norman Davis lived on the west side of 3rd Avenue between 3rd and Rider. 638 The Canal Beyond Rider was the canal - now a street (Canal Street). There were barges on the canal and would park there, like in Hong Kong. Across the street from the canal was the Fox Calcimine Company. All of the employees at the calcimine were white, they had a platform in the street that would be used as a loading platform. All of the youngsters would sit on the platform on summer nights and it was so wide it could accommodate the whole block. Around the corner was the Chinese laundry, now home to a Dunkin' Doughnuts. Chinese laundry was always looking for help - good if you were looking for a days or weeks work. Both of Normans parents worked there, none of Thelma's did. " ; Charlie's Grocery Store" ; also next to the saloon. Thelma says that black people used to be called " ; negroes" ; , Norman says that they have been called everything. 857 Norman playing games as children VS. Thelma having to stay at home On the west side of Rider Avenue was a huge junk yard. Used to play with friends, " ; Buck Rogers land" ; . Played on the barges with Thelma's younger brothers and sisters - never really knew Thelma until 8 years ago. Norman's family - uncle and grandmother - lived on the same block as Thelma. Buildings were 5 stories high, but " ; short stories" ; . Buildings on 138th were knocked down to make way for a filling station, 3 companies have owned it but its never worked out. Thelma says she was never allowed to come out to play as a child because she was the oldest and was raised in accordance with Caribbean beliefs. She had to be the servant, the nurse, the doctor, the baby-sitter, the nanny for the whole family. No laughter or relaxing - very strict upbringing. Rules didn't apply to her sisters, one of her sisters was very rebellious. 1167 Thelma: Mother Thelma's mother was born in Barbados, neither of her parents were slaves. Barbados was the first British Colony in the Caribbean, considered very valuable because of sugar. Thelma's mother was a dressmaker, her grandmother was an unlicensed veterinarian her grandfather was a shipbuilder who build scooners for deepwater. Thelma's mother used to go on the shakedown crews for the wooden ships - where ships would be taken out to test if they were sea worthy. Grandfather built ships on the beach, not a yard. Grandfathers ships sailed the Caribbean, South America, Central America on consignment. Mother went to school until she was 14, which was the standard cut off age for girls in the Caribbean at that time, but she was very well read. Knew the classics, liked music as well as literature. She came to USA in 1918, with the understanding she would come and live with her brother who had also been in Panama. Planned to work, save up and go home. Brother was supposed to send back money but fell in love and went back on his promises. Thelma's mother worked in factory, was very beautiful but because she was black she was wasn't allowed in the union or to work with the sowing machines. Her mother never became a US citizen - disgusted by instances of police brutality and didn't want to be part of it. Never thought of America as her home, felt like she had not protection or rights in the USA. She looked at The Bronx as part of the world, not just America but international. 1741 Thelma: Father Father was very different - disgruntled, didn't smile, not talkative. People were afraid of him - children and adults. Big man. He was a carpenter, wanted to be a civil engineer. Father was also born in Barbados, but left and moved to Cuba as a child. Father never told stories about working on the canal, everything Thelma knows about her father comes from relatives who lived elsewhere in NYC. He was disappointed. He was political, became a citizen during WW2. Worked in shipyard. Parents stayed on 136th for many years. Father was a very enterprising business man - owned 4 houses. Wasn't frivolous with money, didn't gamble. Only had what was necessary. 2131 Schism between different black communities Divide between black people from the South and black people from the islands. Folks from the Caribbean had been taught to read, write and manual trades - unlike black folks from the South who because of slavery didn't have those opportunities. Folks from the Caribbean found it easier to get jobs in the USA, folks from the South were looked down upon and many became farmers. Southerners resented the Caribbean folks because of this. Thelma's dad made his way in the USA - Norman speaks with admiration about his business sense and intelligence. He owned 4 or 5 buildings on Old Broadway in Manhattan. Norman remarks how important it is that he (Thelma's father) was a black, self made man. Taught himself to type and shorthand. Thelma feels bitter because he was never able to achieve what he had come to this country to do which was to be a civil engineer. Proud of him and what he achieved in spite of the obstacles he faced like never being able to join a union. Caribbean men formed own union called 1888. 2497 Thelma: Father's Politics and Mother's Religion Thelma's father was interested in civic issues, in history of USA - how the constitution was formed etc. He had friends that would come and have discussions about politics. Thelma used to stand off to the side and listen in. Knew her letters before she went to school. Her mother converted to Catholicism from Church of England, her father went to the synagogue - his Rabi was from Ethiopia. Her family didn't like the idea that she married someone out of the faith. Mother was christened by Thelma's grandmother - in order to go to school, you had to be christian. Mother converted to Catholicism at St. Jeromes because the Church of England chapel was too far downtown. When she got to St Jeromes, she walked in and everyone went silent because she was a non-white woman in a white Catholic Church. They wanted to know what she was doing there. When Thelma got older and had children of her own, her mother didn't like the public schools so chose to convert so her grandchildren could get into the better catholic schools - " ; if you belong to anything and it cant do anything for you, leave it alone." ; Parents eventually went home to Barbados. 2891 Thelma: Parents going home to Barbados Parents went home to Barbados - father wanted to see what happened to his property there. Father had a brother (Thelma's uncle) who he supported, brother had worked for the united food company in Honduras and when the USA instigated a coup there it meant that everyone who lived in Honduras but wasn't born there and were non-white were forced to leave. So uncle lost job and his wife wasn't able to return to Barbados with him because she wasn't a citizen - she went back to Jamaica with her child, he went back to Barbados. Father used to support him because there wasn't any work in Barbados. Sent him money to buy land and build on it - put it in his own name, not her fathers. 3014 Thelma: Father's Jewish faith Thelma's father attended a synagogue in Manhattan, in Harlem. Rabi's name was Moses. Only found these things out third, or fourth hand. When her father was dying he was prayed over by a catholic because no one knew of his Jewish faith. 3086 The black community in the South Bronx Black community grew from the 550 in the 1920s to 1000 in the 1930s. Thelma's family didn't mix with other black people and other black people didn't mix with them. Sometimes she would get verbal abuse. No marrying or mixing between the different black communities - each one had their own little churches and stores. Thelma's folks went to the Episcopal school, she attended the parochial school downtown. Thelma also ended up attending Sunday school and church - on one Sunday the woman who used to take her didn't come so Thelma spent the dime that was supposed to be for the collection plate on candy. Parents didn't give her into trouble. 3567 Norman: Religion Norman's folks were from the South and were Methodists or Baptists. AME church. Norman's mother was Catholic and from Baltimore, father was from the Bible Belt. Bible Belt interpretation was designed to keep slaves in line. The only thing Norman liked about church was communion because they had grape juice. When he got married, he converted to Catholicism. Norman talks about the messengers/prophets of the three major religions - Christianity, Islam and Confucianism. When people came up from the south they still believed that they were inferior because of the version of the Bible that they had been taught. That their reward would come in heaven, but that they would have to suffer for it on earth. Clashes between his mother and grandmother. His mother didn't go to St Jeromes. 3984 Norman: Birth and Health The only black folks that Norman knew were the ones on 136th street. The South Bronx was all caucasian. When Norman went to school, there were three black students - himself and his two cousins. You didn't go to the hospital for anything. Doctor used to give you the medicine so you didn't have to go to the drug store. Norman was born in Harlem Hospital, was injured during the birth - 7 hour labour, dry birth. Norman's spine was injured. Grandmother said that it was God's will - but mother knew something wasn't right and that he should be walking. Took him to the hospital and when he came out a week later, he was standing holding onto the chair. Can walk and dance. Never went back for a reexamination - has suffered with constant pain ever since. Norman's first girlfriend was Irish. Her name was Catherine. 4606 Fighting to get to the Grocery store Norman says the only black folks he ever saw were the ones who lived on 136th - on this one block that Norman calls " ; the dead end of The Bronx." ; To go from the east side to the west side of 3rd Avenue you had to fight your way across. You had to cross in order to get to the grocery store. Thelma and her sister tried to cross the street, came back crying because they couldn't cross. Mother sent them back out with pieces of firewood to beat off the people who were harassing them - or their mother would beat them. Came from a Caribbean fighting family. Norman says that fighting spirit was beaten out of the folks who came up from the south - they were more likely to bow down. Norman's family didn't have the same problem as Thelma's because they lived on the same side of 3rd as the store. 4821 Norman's father His father was a very laid back man, matriarchal household. One day one of his father's first cousins was jumped - came from a big family, his grandmother's mother had had 10 children. He went over to where his cousin had been jumped (between Lincoln and 3rd) and pulled out a gun. Norman could believe it - had never even heard his father expressing that level of anger. His father was maybe 19 at the time - confronted the group (Thelma agrees that there was always a group of them). Norman struggles to picture his father in that way. Wasn't children who were doing the attacking - it was men and women. 4983 Thelma and Norman discuss the history of Slavery and the root of the tensions between the black communities in Mott Haven Thelma notes that anyone who had one drop of black blood was supposed to be subservient to anyone with white blood - which has its roots in the Bible. 2300 bibles printed in the US for the different denominations, all of them agree that black people should be " ; underfoot." ; Speak about the way that slaves were tortured - roasting, pulling apart, beatings. Both argue that because the Caribbean folks weren’t exposed to that that they were able to be more independent and assertive. There were slaves in the Caribbean under the British. Thelma has always been interested in History – made a point of studying lots of different experiences. Norman recalls the story of a Sunday night and his neighbor whose wife if from the Dominican Republic. All the neighbor spoke about was the separation of the island, which he felt was a mistake – but never presented a solution. Norman contrasts this to the experience of slaves who never had their own land and were brought over from places like Côte D’Ivoire “like pigs”. Broke up families and then brought them here to the USA. Everyone knows each other in the Dominican Republic – whereas in the USA you get people who betray their own people. Gives the example of slave uprisings that he argues were not quashed by the white man alone, but by being betrayed by another slave. In America you wouldn’t even know the person next to you and he would sell you out. In 1800 when people were being imported as slaves until 1807 when the British decided it was too expensive to continue bringing slaves in. Thelma notes that people were not slaves in Africa, idea that “we were brought from Africa as slaves” is wrong – they were free people. People were turned into slaves “after they got their hands on us.” You had to learn the language of your overseer so you could do the work. There were so many uprisings in the Africa and in the USA – the people that were being brought over were not passive people. No one wants to be beaten – people fought back. Willie Lynch – don’t import Africans anymore, raise the Africans you have here and indoctrinate them into thinking they are subservient, but don’t let them have contact with people from the continent. This is the root of the tension between the Caribbean’s and African Americans in the South Bronx. 5966 White Castle Hamburgers Norman says there were no black people in Mott Haven going back until 1970. White Castle hamburger company, from Ohio. Had girls in short skirts that would skate around the restaurant with trays. James Farmer was head of CORE – very militant because he was involved with Dr. Martin Luther King. There weren’t any black girls skating or waiting on cars in White Castle. Farmer decided to change that – announced he was going to bring in 3 young black girls to Throggs Neck in the South Bronx. They had to get the police to escort them because the Italians who lived in the area were so angry – and armed. The young women never ended up getting the job. Rather than hire the black women, they took the skates away all together and stopped the waiting on cars. That’s why all the White Castles now are all drive in. This was in 1970/75. Reiterates that he never saw another black person when he was growing up. 6223 Haven Movie Theatre and 138th Street/2nd Avenue L You could see two movies for 10 cents, Norman would sneak in. Notes that if you walked to 138th, you would see a gap in the buildings where the 2nd Avenue L used to be. The fare was 5 cents. When Norman lived in East Harlem, the New Haven went underground at 97th and doesn’t come back up again until Grand Central. But it comes out and blows all of the smog at 125th street. Where Norman lived was called " ; Over the Bridge" ; - from Park Avenue to 5th. Before the FDR was built it was called " ; the coast" ; . Norman lived in a cold water flat between 2nd and 3rd. 6376 Air quality in Mott Haven The Grand Concourse was like the Champs Elyses - actually inspired by Paris in the way it was built. No people of African descent there unless they were cleaning, Norman argues that you didn't see any at all. Even the superintendents were not black. The only people you occasionally see was a woman who would do a days work, pay very poor (25 cents an hour). You would get lunch - but it was stale bread and cold coffee. 6512 Thelma: School (PS31) Thelma went to PS31 which was on Mott Avenue (now Grand Concourse) - doesn't think there were any more than 10 black children in the whole school. It was her, her two sisters were the only black children in PS31. It was on 144th. Thelma cant remember if any of the other black children on the block also went to that school. Had a teacher, Ms Collins, who taught gym. Was nice. Thelma was excellent in history and geography. She was an excellent student, got good marks. Was supposed to get a reward for history and geography but never got it because she was black - prize was given to two white students who didn't do as well as her. They were segregated at school. You were assigned a seat at the back of the room, or the last in the row. Other students didn't speak to them. 6848 The Grand Concourse Used to be called " ; the block." ; Norman's mum bought him his first bike at 14. Used to ride it from " ; the block" ; - lived in East Harlem. After his parents split up, his mother would still bring Norman up every weekend to Mott Haven to see his father - made him realize that his mother probably still loved his father. They remarried in the Catholic Church in 1945 after his mother (who had never approved of their marriage) died. The Grand Concourse was really clean, people sitting enjoying the sun. Would ride through there to get to orchard beach. Norman compares it to Paris and describes his trip - disappointment that people didn't dress better. Only two men he was wore suits. 136th wasn't dirty, but Grand Concourse was immaculate. 7133 Bruckner Boulevard Fox were only operating during the daytime - not really any pollution. Piano Factory on 133rd, where Bruckner Blvd is now. When they built Bruckner Blvd, they invoked imminent domain and kicked the residents out of their homes. When they were building it Norman was 14. Huge piles of dirt. Norman and his friend would fly kites off them - no buildings so kites would fly high. 7234 Drugs Children back in Thelma/Norman's day were involved in " ; clean activities" ; . Thelma talks about how drugs, specifically cocaine, was cooked up to keep the African American population docile during the 60s when there was more militancy. It was supposed to be sold only to the black communities, but ended up being sold to whites as well. Rockafellar's nephew died from crack overdose. 7340 Norman: Grandparents house during the summer Thelma and Norman's family no longer lived on 136th by the time they bulldozed it. When Norman's great grandmother died, they lived in Edgefield, big house. His grandfather was a man of influence, one of his daughters was a school teacher. Land was plentiful. Back of the house was all woods. Norman went there when he was 10 during the summer. Paid for with his grandmothers pension. They knew that the white people wouldn't be happy that he had a bigger house - the white people " ; the crackers" ; burned the house down. Learned a lot of things that summer being out of the city. House was burned to the ground while the family were at church on Sunday. They needed up living on welfare in the projects - the first projects on 440 E105th next to FDR. Norman lived at 41 E 105th Street. Was a very Italian neighborhood to get between the two places - was worried it would be hostile territory. Only his grandfather paid the taxes - one of 10 children. Norman's mother had her own business and suggested paying the taxes. She lost that argument and the family lost the house. Norman wants to go down to see if he would have been a millionaire. 7998 Norman: Grandmother and Father Was traditional not to allow people of African descent to go to school - If you were caught reading, you would be beaten. Norman worked in Morningside park for the parks department. Spoke with a man who was from South Carolina who knew his grandfather and his house - well known, popular, played the guitar. Speaks more about his father and how he was ruined by his mother (Norman's grandmother). His mother always belittled him. When Norman was 22 he fired back as his grandmother's nasty comments to his father, his father was timid. Grandmother had no answer for him. When Norman's mother left him in 1931, he never had a home of his own until he died in 1952 - slept on his mother's couch. Would sneak out and visit her at work in the beauty shop. 8345 The Bronx Today and the Changing Future. Thelma was in Riverdale 3/4 years ago. Didn't see any black people, just one or two Puerto Ricans. she was reminded of 136th back in the old days. she sees more black people downtown in the upper middle class neighborhoods now. Mott Haven being taken over - rents are going to go up. When Norman moved here, the cost of a house was $21,000 in 1981 - now its $500,000 for newly renovated apartments. 8503 Norman: Grandmother Norman's grandmother had a bible. When his grandfather died she had to leave public housing, was moved to Roosevelt Island. Asked Normans mother if she would take her - Normans mother said no, that she wouldn't treat her right for all of the things that she had done to her - wouldn't want it on her consciousness. " ; God and the Government are going to take care of me" ; . 8733 Stories of Slavery that were passed down Norman's family - both sides were born in 1840. Davis's were free, but the other side of his family were in politics. James Davis could read, write, play instruments, children went to college. His grandfather's brother was a traveling carpenter who had worked on rebuilding Fort Sumpter after WW2. His great grandmother's parents were the slave owner and the cook. Normans wants to find who the slave owner was when he goes down south to do research. Doesn't view his family as slaves in that respect. Tells an anecdote about Presidents with black people on their crests. William Jefferson Clinton and Eisenhower. Thelma's family didn't know anything about slavery except for her great great great grandfather. Another relative who was a blacksmith during slavery, after it was over he continued his trade. Her mother saw a white man when she was growing up who had a missing ear and part of his jaw missing, when she asked her family why he was like that it was because he had borrowed money from the blacksmith and didn't pay it back on time. This white man had been the blacksmith's master - the blacksmith took a machete to him because the white man wished to see a return of slavery. Thelma describes the ways that slaves would revolt against their masters. Explains why the relationship between whites and blacks on 136th was so fraught. video 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Davis_and_Jackson_20070909.xml Davis_and_Jackson_20070909.xml
Location
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Bronx, NY
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Title
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Norman Davis and Thelma Jackson Oral History Interview
Date
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2007-09-09
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video
Subject
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Norman Oliver Davis was born in 1925 and grew up in Harlem and Mott Haven. His family migrated to New York City from the South and came to Mott Haven by the early 1930s, working as supers for a building at 351 East 136th Street, where they lived in the basement. His family later lived on 136th Street between Third Avenue and Rider Avenue, where there were several black families in a small cluster of tenement buildings. In 1942 he was sent to Elmira Reformatory for allegedly being involved in the stabbing of a white boy during a mugging. He dropped out of high school but then got his GED at age 30. He began working for the Parks Department as an attendant in 1956, and worked there until he retired in 1988, becoming a leader in his union, DC 37, and helping to found the Parks Department’s Ebony Society. In 1981, he bought and renovated a large rowhouse at 440 East 136th Street, where he lived until his death in 2010.
Thelma Jackson was born around 1920 in Pennsylvania and grew up in Harlem and Mott Haven. Her parents were both immigrants from\ Barbados. He father came to New York City via Cuba and Panama, where he worked on the canal. He was a carpenter who dreamed of becoming a civil engineer but was excluded from education because of his race. He went on to become a landlord and owned many apartment buildings. Her mother was a seamstress and mother of ten who refused to become a US citizen because black people did not have rights here. Both of her parents were excluded from labor unions because of their race. They moved to 248 East 136th Street when Thelma was 9, and she attended PS 31. She attended the College of Mt. St. Vincent on a scholarship and married an American Indian. At the time of her interview, in 2007, she lived on Faile Street in the South Bronx. She passed away before we could complete this interview.
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Davis and Thelma Jackson, friends since childhood and now both in their 80s, are interviewed together in this recording. Thelma Jackson was born in Pennsylvania to Caribbean immigrants with roots in Cuba and Barbados. Her father worked on the Panama Canal as an engineer. She describes her parents’ immigration stories, and the discrimination they faced. Thelma grew up at 248 East 136th Street, on a block with many Black families, mainly African Americans from the South. Her mother was a dressmaker and worked in a factory. He r father was a carpenter and owned multiple buildings. Both of her parents were political. She describes her strict upbringing, her family’s experiences with various religions. Norman and Thelma talk about violence, discrimination and segregation in Mott Haven, and being excluded from Haven Theater and St. Jerome’s Catholic Church. She attended P.S. 31 on Mott Avenue (now Grand Concourse) as one of few Black children in her class. Norman discusses more of his family history, in particular experiences of land loss and they both discuss the complex legacies of slavery in the Caribbean and the South.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ray L'Dera
Gordie L'Dera
OHMS Object
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=LDera_20171110.xml
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5.4 LDera_20171110 2:06:03 Mott Haven Oral History Project Columbia Oral History MA Program Ray L'Dera Gordie L'Dera Amy Starecheski 1:|21(13)|44(14)|54(5)|61(9)|70(6)|79(2)|86(8)|94(6)|101(4)|110(6)|119(3)|127(2)|133(2)|146(11)|159(12)|168(6)|177(6)|190(6)|199(9)|212(14)|230(13)|242(2)|255(3)|268(2)|275(10)|291(11)|301(5)|308(1)|317(14)|350(9)|357(10)|365(5)|381(10)|392(15)|403(10)|424(14)|433(6)|452(5)|466(9)|481(10)|511(7)|522(15)|537(10)|545(13)|560(2)|566(8)|574(7)|588(5)|607(6)|631(8)|642(5)|656(13)|677(12)|692(8)|710(11)|729(14)|743(6)|773(6)|785(15)|796(6)|802(8)|808(8)|821(14)|830(16)|844(4)|869(13)|890(7)|911(6)|922(10)|954(3)|970(3)|985(12)|994(11)|999(14)|1010(4)|1018(1)|1024(9)|1033(9)|1049(5)|1059(6)|1066(10)|1085(3)|1101(1)|1113(2)|1128(6)|1153(6)|1179(13)|1199(1)|1228(1)|1249(13)|1255(13)|1263(8)|1279(10)|1290(2)|1296(9)|1320(4)|1337(12)|1346(8)|1356(11)|1369(9)|1380(15)|1396(14)|1409(6)|1424(3)|1440(7)|1470(3)|1483(11)|1501(7)|1516(11)|1534(11)|1567(10)|1595(4)|1617(1)|1640(12)|1649(6)|1657(8)|1670(1)|1686(3)|1704(9)|1712(8)|1726(3)|1742(4)|1768(3)|1793(11)|1818(12)|1837(12) 0 https://soundcloud.com/oralhistory_columbia/ldera_2017_11_10/s-gDdLi SoundCloud o audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/454393995& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Introductions Introductions, welcome, discussion of interviewing them together and having each tell their bio first. 17 66 Ray L'Dera bio begins Born in VA, grew up in Appalachian region. Father was an Alsatian, a spy in WWI, they moved about a lot because he wanted to hide his identity. No stability as a young child, no sense of neighborhood until Gordie and he were married. home ; neighborhood 17 165 Brownstoning and real estate value When first married lived on Joralemon Street, then Park Slope, then State Street in Boerum Hill. Early part of brownstone revival movement, he was on Brownstone revival committee. Did not think of it as gentrification, Got real estate license. In Ft. Greene owned two rooming houses and lived in on. People did not realize how valuable city real estate was then. Still thought you should save money, get married, move to suburbs. gentrification ; homeownership ; value 17 285 Brownstoning, coming to feel at home in impoverished neighborhoods Movement was artists who did not have money to move anyplace else. First two houses cost about 27k and now one is worth a million. Moved to small town in PA for 10 years. Back in NYC lived in Flatbush, then apt in East Harlem. By that time felt most at home in impoverished neighborhoods, than in more established neighborhoods. class ; home ; race Brownstoning 17 408 Being pushed out of East Harlem Stayed in East Harlem, active in Committee to Save East Harlem, a militant housing group. Guy who owned their house sold it and new owners wanted to gentrify, Put in candy store with loud music and drugs and took locks off front doors. Daughter came home and found corpse in front of her apt. drugs ; gentrification ; renting 17 476 A four unit, two family home Decided it was time to leave East Harlem. Found house they have now, also considered brownstone on Alexander. Chose house because of space for them and 2 daughters to each have separate apartment, and to house their off off Broadway theater, for same price as smaller brownstone. Been there since 1991. Starecheski came 18 years ago, before everything was totally settled, and then her sisters. In effect it's been a 2 family house for most of its period. Almost like a commune, with Christmas dinners, family dinners, sharing backyard. Can do it with tenants willing to experiment and think outside the box. family ; home ; landlords ; tenants ; value 17 656 Why do it? An acquired family. Have generated a unique way of dealing with real estate. Don't give anything away but don't overcharge for anything, and so is a financial hardship for tenants to leave. Security in old age, especially now at age 80, wonderful to feel that people have got your back. An acquired family, acquired comfort that can't imagine having any place else. family ; home 17 761 Reclaiming a neighborhood as a home Feeling of family spread throughout the neighborhood because those of us who have been through the bad old days develop sense of solidarity and trust, Like Brook Park. Before that there was an attempt to squat a building near there, and then they started the garden. These things become part of the family tradition. Not friendship in usual suburban sense. Not blood family or political outlook. Plenty of squabbling. Exciting, rewarding way of life, reclaiming a neighborhood for what it was designed to be, a home. bad old days ; community garden ; home ; neighborhood ; solidarity 17 884 Gordie's bio, introduction to NYC Born in tiny village in Pennsylvania. Totally white community. Directly from high school to American Academy of Dramatic Arts. Had apt on West Side, saw two women running and fighting past her stoop. She loved it, and never wanted to leave NYC. This is where she grew up. Acting. Met and married Ray in 3 months. race 17 1008 Early gentrification in Boerum Hill Went to Boerum Hill. Ray started selling real estate. They understand what's going on here, because they saw it there. In Fort Greene it was artists, naive people who thought everyone could live together. Then the rich people came in, and it was a big difference. They were the gentrifying start and they never thought they were doing something bad. class ; gentrification ; race 17 1106 Defending your territory Ray was tough, you needed to be in these neighborhoods then. Fire house would give sprinkler caps for the hydrants. Guy across the street took theirs off, they got in a conflict over it. They were going to dinner and Ray's brother stayed behind to guard the house. They stand up to the toughs and rest of neighborhood has their back. Dealt with stuff like that in Mott Haven at first too. family ; property ; race ; violence 17 1248 Navigating race and gender One of the neighborhood toughs tells her to go home and put a bra on - she laughs at him and so does everyone else on the block. After that she was careful going out. School tells her to get kids out of those schools once they're 12. Gordie-Ray's best friend was black, and her family did not want them to be friends, would not let her come over. This was during Black Panthers time - Gordie accidentally attends Black Panthers mtg in Harlem. gender ; race ; schools 17 1437 How Ray and Gordie met. Working on Wall Street. Ray was auditioning her for a play he was directing. They also worked at the same Wall St company - he was running training operations and she was receptionist and had to leave the job once they got together. She talked him into quitting and going back to acting, which seemed like a crazy thing to do. class ; gender ; work 17 1737 The first house they bought House on State Street in Boerum Hill cost 13k when they bought it in their early 20s. A beautiful house, spiral staircase. They expected to stay there for a the rest of their lives, but then moved to Fort Greene. Broker Ray worked for was a reverse blockbuster - first white families on the block, as Ray and Gordie were. Fort Greene had lots of grand houses, falling apart and burning, but nobody selling. So Ray got license and started selling in both neighborhoods. As broker had shot at best deals. 2 houses side by side for 27k and they couldn't turn it down. By the time they came back from PA, could not afford anything there. 17 1967 Did they expect gentrification? Committee to Save East Harlem They thought everyone would mix together and nobody would be forced out. They did know it would be important to buy right away. Later they moved to East Harlem and were among beginners of Committee to Save East Harlem, 20 years ago. Leslie was a teenager in summer school and they had an assignment to research who was living in the neighborhood. Committee was able to use the info! Russian state TV wanted to film their meetings. Christmas Eve an entire building was evicted, and radiators destroyed so they could not come back. Also got involved in West Harlem, supporting tenants threatened by corrupt police (dirty thirty). They marched against the police. They won victories. 17 2430 Moving into Mott Haven, what was the house and neighborhood like They discuss what made them choose their current house and how the improvements they made it to it. They also discuss what the neighborhood was like when they moved in 20 years ago. They heard gunshots at night now and still hear them today. The neighborhood has changed but also has remained the same. A neighbor told their daughter that she was the first Black person in the neighborhood and now they are the first white people. crime ; gentrification ; race ; violence 17 2612 Gentrifying the neighborhood with theater They feel they contributed to the gentrification of the neighborhood by organizing theater groups around the neighborhood. They discuss various spaces they used for their performances they coordinated and also the people who were involved with them before they arrived. When they first moved in, they used the political theater across from Brook Park for their performances. The man who ran the theater before was older and eventually passed away during a heat wave. At one point that theater was associated with the public schools to make the arts more available to students. They next worked in the United Neighborhood Houses spaces and held rehearsals and performances uptown and downtown. Many did not want to travel uptown to the Bronx for performances. They held drama and photography classes for kids in different schools and worked in the Patterson and Melbrook projects. The library asked them to create an improv class, they had touring performances and a theater downtown, and they were also working. 17 3220 Politics of real estate and closing down the theater They tried to rent a building for their theater and planned to have artists live there as well. Real estate agents told them that they could not find a space for less than $17/ft but they did. Even as they were beginning programming for kids to direct and write their own scripts for films, they were priced out of the neighborhood and forced to close down the theater. artists ; arts ; gentrification ; real estate ; theater 17 3425 Neighborhood's reputation The neighborhood had a " ; rough" ; reputation when they first moved in. Adam was robbed of his phone on his front stoop. For the most part they have felt that it is a great place to live and have felt safe. crime ; neighborhood 17 3534 Education of urban children in a pre-gentrification period Their kids went to a math and science school with a music program. Ray feels that even during a pre-gentrification period, there has been a great amount of effort devoted to the children's education. He says that by going to disadvantaged schools, students often develop " ; strength and resilience" ; when compared to wealthier students who attend better funded schools. class ; education ; gentrification ; race ; urban education 17 3768 Helping former tenant's abandoned son A single dad rented from them for a while and eventually abandoned his 14-15 year old son. They tried to help the boy find work and he stayed with them for a while. The job did not work out, but he ended up living with his Grandmother. When he comes back to the neighborhood now, he visits them. 17 3898 Getting to know their neighbors: street friends vs. house friends Their neighbor Calvin had a grandson who was friends with their grandson. While they knew of their neighbors, they did not make close friends. Ray says especially if you move in from outside of the neighborhood, you have street friends and house friends. They have friends who they have known for years but have never had inside their house. A few people they used to argue with have become street friends over the years. They discuss a few individuals from around the neighborhood. community ; gentrification ; neighbors 17 4261 The Black Panthers' sense of community chipped away by drugs and poverty It was similar to the other neighborhoods in which they've lived. Ray feels the Black Panthers created a sense of community into the neighborhood. They feel that this neighborhood had more of a community feeling than the Bronx. This sense of community and home was " ; chipped away" ; with drugs. Drugs drew dividing lines between generations and races. Drugs more negatively affect communities of color. Poverty created divides as well. Ray feels that now the neighborhood is becoming more of a community. class ; community ; Drugs ; generational differences ; race ; The Black Panthers 17 4641 Sense of division in the community now, how to bring everyone together The neighborhood today is being gentrified. Wealthier people moving into the neighborhood should connect with people already living there by becoming involved in the community. People moving in now are creating their own individual community instead. Ray warns that in downtown Brooklyn there are separate factions of people instead of one unified community. class ; drugs ; gentrification ; race 17 4897 Recently-built row houses are now a " ; culture within a culture" ; They don't know anyone who moved in to the newly-built row houses. Ray says that those who moved into them have race and wealth privilege, but that they are probably the lower edge of the middle class and new to racially-integrated neighborhoods. He feels that wealthy people have many options. If a neighborhood does not work out, they can move elsewhere. Poorer people do not have those choices. They don't recall anyone discussing them being built. class ; community ; neighborhood ; race 17 5154 Less community meetings in the 25 years since they moved in They used to have community meetings at the Lincoln Hospital but those do not happen anymore. They themselves have now stopped attending community meetings, especially now that they do not have their theater. class ; community meetings 17 5340 Trajectory of gentrification Gordie says that changes or gentrification in neighborhoods starts with artists moving in. She says they were the first artists to move in. Then, brownstones were built and now those are very expensive. In 25 years, these changes have created a large shift in the neighborhood. Ray says compares gentrification to slaughterhouses. First artists, then more people, and then people coming in to the " ; slaughter," ; who buy properties well above market value. At a time, people burnt their own houses to get their insurance value. artists ; community ; gentrification ; real estate 17 5660 Real estate price fluctuations in New Orleans 17 5734 Sense of freedom and openness in Mott Haven They feel most comfortable in neighborhoods like Mott Haven because " ; people are open." ; Gordie feels safe and likes the convenience of being near the Subway. Ray feels that he can be himself without judgement even on a bad day. A woman with whom they were working on their last film, Lucy, was a foreigner and when she got lost in the neighborhood, people helped her. 17 5963 Experiences being white in the neighborhood They have never experienced hostility from being a white person in the neighborhood. Except recently, a Black person asked them how long they had lived there. Gordie likes the small businesses in the neighborhood and that she can be herself. One time a person of color told Ray to clean up after his dog and Ray says that everyone has assumptions about others that can change. They recently felt threatened on the Subway by people they felt were looking for trouble. They don't want to see their neighborhood change. race 17 6344 Why they chose their apartment and the Mott Haven neighborhood ; old community meetings They liked the house because it allowed them to have their children and grandchildren stay with them even as they became adults. Her daughter has allergies and has a hard time in the city. She recently had a bad experience on a flight with her allergies. They felt the real estate agent who was selling them their apartment was trying to sell them. They cannot remember who used to organize the community meetings at Lincoln Hospital. The city built a baseball field over a playground. neighborhood 17 6807 Humorous situations of racial tension Ray once befriended a lay preacher. Ray and his friend were trying to get Black and Latino people in the neighborhood to pool their money to buy real estate in the neighborhood so they could profit from it. The Black Panthers were against this. Ray and his friend made a presentation at a community church meeting and a person in the audience essentially told him to leave and Ray was able to make a joke to ease the tension. One woman of color once essentially told Gordie to leave and she stood up for herself. 17 7026 Old house in Brooklyn Discussion of people who moved in to their house after them and visiting the house after they moved out. Their daughter was upset they sold the house because it was a beautiful property. 17 7133 People who lived in the apartment before them The people who lived in the apartment before them were a Latino family whose son died. The family sold it to a gay couple who sold it to them. The gay couple got into an argument in front of them during the real estate closing. They kept a couple of drawings/photographs that those people left behind. 17 7377 Discussion of children in the apartment now, a young girl they knew, and closing 17 Amy Starecheski: But um I' ; m really-- I' ; ve got my my fingers crossed that things are gonna-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Well, how can we live in this neighborhood? You know, all of us? I can give you some of those, yeah. Amy Starecheski: Yes, I want to hear all about it. Amy Starecheski: OK so I' ; m going to just do a little introduction. This is Amy Starecheski and I' ; m interviewing Gordie and Ray L' ; Dera. Today is November 10th 2017 and we' ; re in their apartment in the ground floor of our building. And so you' ; re gonna see me just watching this at first so I can set the levels right. And so like I said we like to start off at the beginning. And I think you know I don' ; t normally interview people together, so we' ; ll see. You know, we' ; ll see how you guys want to be together but I think it makes sense maybe for you each to kind of take turns starting at the beginning and telling me just a little bit about where and when you were born, your family, your background. So, I don' ; t know which of you wants to go first. Ray, maybe you want to go first? Just cause you' ; re not feeling well so you see how you feel and then go if you need to. Or Gordie you can go first if you' ; re-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Go ahead. Ray L' ; Dera: So the idea is that I get mine in before I drop dead! OK. Ray L' ; Dera: [coughs] I knew that was gonna happen. Amy Starecheski: And don' ; t worry about it. Ray L' ; Dera: Good timing, too, for that one. Amy Starecheski: Right, get it out. Ray L' ; Dera: OK. So what do you want? Just basically, where I' ; m from, how I got here. Amy Starecheski: Yes tell me, you know, where and when you were born and just a little bit about your background. Ray L' ; Dera: OK. I was born in Bristol, Virginia. I lived all over the Appalachian region as a kid. My dad was an expatriate Alsatian. Served in the German army and the French army. And apparently for a period in the Polish unit of the Russian army as a spy during the first war. When he came to this country he obviously changed his name. He didn' ; t particularly want people from the old country to know anything about him and this is why we moved about so often. So in terms of the childhood background, the things that form a person, uh I was a little bit unusual. There was no stability in the usual sense other than a pretty stable family. So I never really got nailed to the sense of neighborhood quite frankly until the Gordie and I were married. We initially lived, when we first got married, we lived in an apartment on Joralemon Street in Brooklyn Heights. From there we moved to Park Slope, again an old law tenement, very similar to this one. And then I bought a little house on State Street in Boerum Hill which at that time was called downtown Brooklyn or Gowanus. It was the early part of the brownstone revival movement. I was on the brownstone revival committee that largely started this-- the whole concept of, not gentrifiying, that was never our goal, but rather re-establishing the old city neighborhoods. The gentrification came later. As a part of that I got my real estate license. After a few years we sold the house on State Street. We moved to South Portland in Fort Greene where we had two rooming houses. We ran one of them and lived in the other with the family. That particular period of course very few people realized how valuable real estate was in New York. All those people were still thinking, " ; Get married, save your money, and move to West Chester or Long Island. The movement was largely artists who had no money to buy any place else. For example my two houses on South Portland Avenue cost me twenty seven thousand dollars for both of them. When I sold the first one I sold it for $28,000.00. The second one essentially the same amount and this was over a period of I guess about five years before we sold that and moved to the country. Now a house on South Portland probably is worth a million. And very likely a little bit more. And again this is a period of 50 years - 40 years. We moved to a small town in Pennsylvania, stayed there for 10 years. Hurricane Agnes hit and destroyed the economy there. And we came back to New York. Lived for a little while in Flatbush, got an apartment in East Harlem. Quite frankly by this time I felt a whole lot better, more comfortable, more at home, in the impoverished neighborhoods than I did in the more established neighborhoods. Didn' ; t speak a word of Spanish. But I felt like, I think the Spanish word would be boriqueno, a neighbor. I' ; d spent so much of my life in these neighborhoods that this was my origin in a sense. We stayed in East Harlem for a while. We were very active in the Committee to Save East Harlem, a very militant housing group. Unfortunately the guy who owned our house sold it. The new owners were looking to gentrify and first thing they did was put in a candy store in one of the vacant units downstairs that played loud music 24 hours a day and sold drugs, we think. And he took the locks off the front doors. As it happened one night one of my daughters came home and she had an apartment in the back of the building and lo and behold she had to step over a corpse to get to her apartment. The police were very kind but it' ; s not a very good experience. So we decided that maybe it was time to leave East Harlem. We found this house and we considered briefly one of the little brownstones on Alexander. This house won out partially because it provided us with enough space for my two daughters and Gordie and me to each have our separate apartments, which was really handy. It also gave us the space in which to house our Off Off Broadway theater. And for a very small price, realistically, about the same price as the little house on Alexander would have cost and it would have done none of those things. We' ; ve been here now since 91. That' ; s 20 odd years. You came I think about 18 years ago if I remember correctly. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I came January 1st 2001. Ray L' ; Dera: Anyway a long time ago before everything was terribly settled. Your sister, Laura, came shortly after. And then when Laura left I guess or maybe Anna came while Laura was still here. So in effect it' ; s been a 4 family 2 family house for most of this period. And that, given 15, 20 years of interaction has really become something approaching a commune, with Christmas dinners, we had for a while. We just started our little tradition of family dinners down here, sharing the backyard and making the house livable in ways that we never, would never have been possible without people who think outside the box, having tenants who do that, who can say, " ; Well this is good, this is a great idea. Why don' ; t we try something else that might be a better idea?" ; And we found that it made a tremendous difference. We could never develop that in a normal four family house where everybody lives separately. Why do it? Well, I think the results themselves are the why do it. We' ; ve really generated a separate and rather unique way of dealing with real estate. We don' ; t give anything away but we don' ; t overcharge for anything either, which means the house will be very hard for our tenants to leave. It would be a financial hardship for them to leave because they simply won' ; t find these rents any place else. It' ; s highly unlikely anyway. It gives us security in our old age and believe me that number 80, when that number comes knocking at your door you' ; ll start thinking differently. At eighty years old, it' ; s wonderful to have the feeling that first of all you' ; ve got three floors of people that have got your back. Both financially and in terms of if we have problems we have family. The same sense that you have in the settlements in Israel, I guess, in the kibbutz. It' ; s an acquired family and acquired comfort that I can' ; t imagine having any place else. That feeling spreads throughout the neighborhood because those of us who' ; ve been here a while and gone through the bad old days develop a sense of solidarity and trust among ourselves. For example, you' ; re a part of Brook Park. Prior to Brook Park there was an attempt which is where I met Harry to -- what' ; s the word I' ; m looking for when you seize a property and occupy it? Amy Starecheski: Squat? Ray L' ; Dera: I' ; m sorry? Amy Starecheski: Squat? Ray L' ; Dera: Squat, yes. There was an attempt to squat a building a few blocks away. That didn' ; t work. Harry got involved in starting the -- in starting Brook Park. These things become part of the family tradition of- of that expanded family. It' ; s not quite a friendship in the usual suburban sense. It' ; s not quite a real family, a blood family. It' ; s not even a political outlook. God knows when you put all of us together you get more squabbling than I imagine you would find anyplace else. It' ; s an exciting, rewarding way of life, simply reclaiming a neighborhood and feeling that it' ; s taking it back to the way it was designed, to be a home. And that' ; s about it. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s fantastic. I have so many follow up questions. Maybe let' ; s pause there and Gordie do you want to kind of tell your version of it and then we' ; ll bring them together with some follow up questions? 00:14:53 Gordie L' ; Dera: OK, yep. Alrighty I was born in Pennsylvania. A very tiny little village and we moved to a bigger little village and we were a straight white community with one black man. And so it was, we were all the same, period. And I guess that changed when I graduated from high school and went directly to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. Woo hoo! And then-- I forget what I was going to say. Anyway I had a little apartment over on the West Side. And I' ; m sitting out on the porch one day or on the stoop and I wasn' ; t sure yet where I wanted to go or where I wanted to spend my life. So here come these two women chasing, one chasing the other one -- they' ; re running so hard that their skirts are up against about their panties. And one' ; s got a hammer and she' ; s - she' ; s wielding this at the other one, saying, " ; You leave my man alone or I' ; m gonna kill you!" ; And I thought, " ; God. I love this place. I absolutely love this place. I' ; m never gonna live anywhere else." ; So that was, that was New York for me. And it still is. It' ; s why I can' ; t live in New Orleans. You know, I can do short spurts but this is where I guess I grew up. And so we went, you know, we went through the acting stuff and him too. And we met, we got married in three months. And you know who thought it would last? Here it is. Fifty seven years later. And so we went to Boerum Hill and he started selling real estate. I sold one house, ever. I took them out to look at the apartment and the building was for sale and they said, " ; We' ; ll take it." ; I said, " ; Oh well let' ; s go back and you know, here' ; s the, here' ; s what it will cost" ; and so on and they said, " ; No. The building!" ; I was so shocked I didn' ; t know what to do. So anyway that was not my forte selling real estate but I have a pretty good idea what' ; s going on here because we did that there. And the people going in, particularly Fort Greene, we moved over there: artists, people who thought, we were naive enough in those days to think that all people could live together. And those are the people who came in initially and then it got to the point where the one end of the park got the rich people coming in and boy was that a difference. He was selling, you know. And they' ; d call him up in the middle of the night you know four o' ; clock in the morning. " ; Did we make a mistake? Can we get our money back?" ; I mean it just, it was totally different types of people and we were all you know I guess we were the gentrifying start and never in a million years did we think we were doing something bad, rather than good. We just thought everybody could live together. You know we had, we had-- He was tough as nails, which you really needed to be in these neighborhoods then. We had the fire, the fire-- when they turned on the water for the kids to play. And the firehouse would give you things to put on to spray rather than lose half the water in the city. And we got one and this guy across the street took it off and we put it back on and he came over and he threatened. We' ; re taking the kids-- OK we had the babysitter living with us at that point and we' ; re all going out to dinner. That was a real problem with us and the babysitter, she always went everywhere we went, so anyway. Ray L' ; Dera: Well, she was hungry! Gordie L' ; Dera: Kid going to college there. Anyway we all go outside, we' ; re going to dinner and except for his brother who stayed in the house to protect it because we knew we were in a little bit of trouble at that point and this bunch of tough Hispanic guys come across the street. " ; I' ; m gonna kill you," ; he says. And Ray says, " ; Come on. I' ; ll take you on one or I' ; ll take you on all at the same time. Come on." ; At which point I' ; m not gonna lose my husband, I say to her, " ; Take the kids, go!" ; and I step up and, " ; Me too!" ; And there we are, macho guys. And we look around and the other half of the Spanish neighborhood is standing at our back. Anyway -- Ray L' ; Dera: And beside and behind the other guys. I mean they were surrounded! Gordie L' ; Dera: Exactly and behind them. Right, right. So they backed down - very, you know- backed down, and went back across the street. And I' ; m sitting on the stoop the next day and the leader of the other group comes over with his baby, he says, " ; Here, you wanna hold my baby?" ; Well, that was the end of the end of the battle. And that' ; s the kind of stuff that you dealt with at the beginning in this neighborhood as well. I mean sometimes we were so dumb you know like, " ; We' ; ll take you on!" ; Anyway, that was in-- Where was that? Ray L' ; Dera: South Portland, Fort Greene. Gordie L' ; Dera: South Portland -- yeah, Fort Greene. I don' ; t wear a bra. I didn' ; t wear a bra then. When I went to work. When I had to. I was one of the original throw them away burn the damn things. Okay, and I' ; ve been that way now for 40- 60 years. 60 years, probably. Anyway, I' ; m walking down the street one day and one of the the real tough guys who ran the neighborhood, he looks and me and he says, " ; Go home and put a brassiere on, girl! You can' ; t be walking around like--" ; And I thought it was the funniest thing. I mean I just burst into laughter. I just couldn' ; t help, laughing like crazy. And the other guys around start laughing. Well now he can' ; t do anything because we' ; re all laughing at him. So I was pretty careful going out by myself for a time after that. So anyway we did our Fort Greene and our downtown Brooklyn time. And then the school I guess sent us out actually because Gordie-Ray was getting to be seven or eight, maybe nine by that point and talking to the principal of the school. He says, " ; Don' ; t leave her here before 12. Make sure you get - get your kids out of here because she will learn nothing and it' ; s just trouble." ; Well, again another racial problem was Gordie-Ray was best friends with this black girl in school and one day she came home she was crying like crazy and she said, " ; They won' ; t let me come in their house anymore." ; So I take my ass over there and I say, " ; What' ; s going on?" ; and she says, " ; My husband does not want our children playing with your children." ; Ray L' ; Dera: This was the beginning of the ascendency of the Black Panthers. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Yeah. Who I accidentally went to a meeting of one day, not realizing-- This was before all of this. I kind of, you know, stuck my finger in Harlem a little and-- I mean I grew up in a town where we were all the same. I did not like all the same anymore so I dipped my toe in everywhere and I go along out to Brooklyn with these guys one night and we walk in and here is this room jammed full of guys in uniform and they couldn' ; t have been any nicer. You know? I did not know until I was away from there that those were the Black Panthers, but they were all in uniform. Anyway they were really-- I guess my friends got me out of there pretty quick. But anyhow that' ; s - that was one of my early festivities. I also have a football team in Harlem that were " ; mine." ; They told me they were mine. So anyway, " ; You get any problems, we' ; re here for you." ; Anyway that' ; s my early, you know before I met him. So where was I? I forget. Amy Starecheski: How did you guys meet? Gordie L' ; Dera: He was directing a play and I auditioned for it. He did not cast me but he did ask me to help on the play. So I got the director, not the part. And we worked down the hall from each other and did not realize it. We were on Wall Street. I was the receptionist for-- the receptionist for the company and he worked you know way down the hall and I met him auditioning for a play which-- In those days when you got a job on Wall Street-- This guy " ; Mr. Camp Bell" ; made me swear I would give up theater and never ever do another. Of course I sat there and said, " ; Sure, not a problem." ; And then we hooked up and I had to leave the job or he had to leave the job. They had no married people there at that time. And they' ; ve since been swallowed up by another company. I don' ; t know. You know, they don' ; t exist anymore. But Mr. Camp Bell, oh my god, his secretary, [in a fancy accent] " ; Mr. Camp Bell' ; s office." ; His name was Campbell! Well, I' ; m sorry. His name was Campbell. So we had our time on Wall Street when we were-- That' ; s when - that' ; s when Gordie-Ray was born, when we were still, he was still on Wall Street. And I talked him into quitting and going back to acting, which was a really dumb thing to do. But you know, anyway. Amy Starecheski: What were you doing on Wall Street? Ray L' ; Dera: What was I? Amy Starecheski: What were you doing on Wall Street? Ray L' ; Dera: I was in a section of the operations department. Basically the firms are split into sales and back office and I got the job at a time when they were just going through their annual audit and at that point my job was to go through find errors in customer accounts, satisfy the customer' ; s complaints and verify with the auditors that they' ; ve been taken care of. I' ; m not quite sure how but I did get to be a bit of a golden boy there. I think it was because I may have been one of the first people that understood how computers worked. Gordie L' ; Dera: And I taught him! Ray L' ; Dera: I ended up as head of training for the back office, for the operations division nationally. I had no responsibility internationally, but occasionally you know somebody would come. Basically I set up training programs for the entire back offices. When Gordie talked me into leaving, it created a little bit of a stir because I mean, after -- what was it? -- three or four years there I had jumped well beyond the status of Mr. Camp Bell' ; s training guy, who was trained, college educated and all of those things, to where I was doing whatever I wanted in the company practically. And then I had to explain why I was leaving. Nobody leaves a job like that! The partner in charge of the division, when left, he shook my hand and said, " ; I' ; ve never shaken the hand of damn fool before." ; But it turned out to be a pretty decent move because the company of course merged after a few years and then the merged company merged and after a few more with years the name [inaudible] Company disappeared completely. And so I' ; m sure did a lot of people that stayed. So-- Amy Starecheski: And so the first house that you bought, did you buy it together? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: And that was that was the one that was-- Gordie L' ; Dera: It was $13,000.00. Amy Starecheski: In what' ; s now Boerum Hill? Ray L' ; Dera: That was on State Street, the eastern end of State Street, over by Fulton, Fulton. Gordie L' ; Dera: Beautiful little house, it had a spiral staircase-- beautiful little home. Amy Starecheski: And when you bought it, did you imagine that that would be like your family home for a long time or did you -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Amy Starecheski: --expect that you would move again? Gordie L' ; Dera: No. We were - we were there. Well, I don' ; t know because he was a roamer, too. And then we started in Downtown Brooklyn - I forget and then moved over to Boerum Hill. Ray L' ; Dera: Well, that was Boerum Hill. Gordie L' ; Dera: That was Boerum Hill, we moved over to Fort Greene. Amy Starecheski: Fort Greene, uh huh. Ray L' ; Dera: That was so serendipitous, actually, because the company that I worked for, the broker that I worked for, was a lawyer and lived on Dean Street and was again -- I guess a reverse blockbuster would be about as good a definition as we could come up with. Which we all were - I mean most of us were the first white family on the block. And I worked for him for a while. And he didn' ; t want to expand beyond Boerum Hill. He felt that there was too much work to be done there, don' ; t go messing around with any other neighborhoods. Fort Greene had nobody selling over there and they were infinitely much more grand houses. Fort Greene was the beginning of Bedford Stuyvesant. And this was where the money was at the turn of the century, that century. So the houses were very, very grand and they were falling to rack and ruin. They were being burned down all over the place. So we had our little tiff and I went ahead and got my license and set up my own company. And started selling in both neighborhoods. And, of course being a broker, I had the shots at the best deals. The initial purchase on State Street we really intended that to be our permanent home, we intended to die there. To the extent that when you' ; re, what? Gordie L' ; Dera: 22? 26? Ray L' ; Dera: 23, 25 that you think about dying at all. But uh, we just found things we couldn' ; t resist. Like, for example two houses side-by-side for $27,000.00. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, those were the days. Ha! Not anymore! It got that way there, too. By the time we had come back from Pennsylvania, where we had gone for the 10 years, nothing in that neighborhood could be touched anymore. It was just, you know, stratosphere. Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah. You were already into the million dollar range. Amy Starecheski: What -- did you-- like when you were first buying houses there, what did you think was going to happen with the neighborhood? You know, it' ; s hard to remember now knowing what did happen but what did you think then? Gordie L' ; Dera: We thought we would all be mixed together. You know lots of artists, and there were a lot of artists, and the people who were there, nobody was going to get forced out. And you know, " ; Go ahead and buy houses now guys!" ; I mean that- that much we knew, buy them now. But we thought the neighborhoods would just coalesce and - and they didn' ; t. That was a bit, you know. And then later we- we moved to East Harlem after we were out in the boonies. Well, we went back to Brooklyn for a while and then we went to East Harlem. By then Lel [Leslie] was in high school and she came home the first day in Brooklyn and she said, " ; I' ; m going to like it here. I don' ; t have to be like everybody else." ; Sort of me I guess. Anyway then we came up to East Harlem and we were some of the beginners of the Committee to Save East Harlem because gentrification was coming in then already and that' ; s over 20 years ago. And there was a funny one that happened with the city. Lel was in a summer school that was kind of a look forward. And they sent the kids out to check out the neigh -- amongst other things, they painted the Staten Island Ferry and that kind of stuff. And then they put them on: find out who lives in what houses where in East Harlem. And they did the neighborhood, this bunch of teenagers did the neighborhood. So we' ; re big on the Committee to Save East Harlem. And meanwhile we know what' ; s happening in every building in East Harlem, which was a great boon for the group. Gordie L' ; Dera: We' ; re sitting there one night, and a cam guy, guy with a camera comes in and starts to load up a movie camera. I said, " ; What are you doing?" ; He said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; we' ; re taping your meeting." ; And we said, " ; well who are you?" ; And he says, " ; we' ; re Russian--" ; Ray L' ; Dera: " ; --State television." ; Gordie L' ; Dera: " ; --State television. We wanted to see how you guys operate." ; We said, " ; go outside," ; and then we had a discussion and we said, " ; this is America. Everybody' ; s free to do this stuff," ; and they came back in and they filmed our meeting. Anyway, yeah that was-- And then it - it - I mean they had one building, Christmas Eve, threw everybody out on the street and the cops went in with -- Ray L' ; Dera: That was over in West Harlem, wasn' ; t it? Gordie L' ; Dera: No, that was in East Harlem. Ray L' ; Dera: Was that in East Harlem? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. And they went in with mallets and broke up the radiators. So if - they couldn' ; t turn the heat back on, you know? That was, you know not, not, you know. That can' ; t happen. And so anyway we wandered around as a group and then it went over to Harlem. And he kind of dropped out at that point and I went on over there and there was that church on the West Side that such a big black people save them, save them. There was a house which had single women who worked and they called our group and they said, " ; Hey, they' ; re trying to put us out." ; So we went over and we talked to them and it was not - it was a dirty thirty, when the dirty thirty was going on and it was not a New York City Car - police car, it was a Connecticut police car that came down, doing dirty work for the dirty 30 and they the building, the girls in the building that if they weren' ; t out in 90 days, they would go out in body bags. Uh huh, uh huh. So that' ; s where they were when we went over. They had put dogs in the basement, turned off the boiler, and so on, in the winter, put dogs in the basement, and one of our guys bought a bunch of steaks and he went trembling on down and fed the dogs and turned on the boiler, you know this kind of stuff. This was a woman from that church who wanted to buy this house. That' ; s when we thought oh my god that' ; s just as dirty as every place else here. We went on the march up to the-- Don' ; t do that. Ray L' ; Dera: [mic noise] Oh, boy. Amy Starecheski: You know, I' ; m gonna switch our mics because mine' ; s a little bit-- has a better clip on it. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, okay. I' ; ll stop, feeling-- Amy Starecheski: No, no it' ; s not your fault. Your is like, this one has, the clip is a little broken so it tends to flop over so this will do a better job giving you a little space. There we go. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Okay. So you were saying, you were marching? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, against the police. And our guy who went up to speak to them, they threw his ass right out the door. Boom. On the street. Ultimately we won, but there was a long long time there. And then I guess, the gentrification just kept coming on. There was no stopping that. And then our building, is when we moved. Our landlord was a sweet old man and he tried so hard but he didn' ; t have any money and he put in a new boiler and the next year they' ; re bitching about how cold it is, the building, in a meeting. And they had one of the uh- what do you call those guys who - who are supposed to be helping the indigenous folks and they' ; re sitting there and we' ; re talking and they' ; re bitching about not having heat and I said, " ; wait a minute guys. We have heat. He bought the boiler, so you can' ; t complain this year. Last year you could complain about no heat, this year you can' ; t." ; And this guy says - Was it to you? No, it was to me. He says, " ; and what religion are you?" ; Ray L' ; Dera: " ; --religion are you?" ; Gordie L' ; Dera: " ; Religion are you?" ; What - what - Jewish. It was the -- " ; What- what temple do you go to?" ; Under his breath. And Ray being the -- " ; Do you all just hear what this man just said to my wife? This is what he just said to my wife!" ; Which booted him out, you know, he got killed. He was a - I can' ; t think what you' ; d call him. Agitator - Ray L' ; Dera: He was an agitator, disguising himself as a community activist. Amy Starecheski: Uh huh, yes. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. And he ultimately was murdered. Amy Starecheski: Do you remember-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. I don' ; t remember his name, no. And this was in what- 20 years? Well, we' ; ve been here 23 years. Amy Starecheski: And why did he think you were Jewish? Gordie L' ; Dera: Oh he was just-- Amy Starecheski: He was just-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Agitating, Agitating. Ray L' ; Dera: There was this assumption that if you were Jewish you would be discredited with the other people in the house. Amy Starecheski: Got it. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Anyway, shortly after that the old man had to sell, it got too much for him and the day he brought in the new person to introduce, we knew we were in deep shit. Yeah. So it wasn' ; t until the corpse and Gordie-Ray having to step over him that we went out and looked and argued a little over whether this house or that house. But I didn' ; t like what they did to the kitchen there and that was a whole new renovation and - and it cost more than this one, too. So we had our first Thanksgiving here. We bought the house early November and we had our first - and it was this crummy little kitchen and Alex was still creeping. And Gordie-Ray did not want him creeping on his floors. And, so, and you know, early on, I go out and this guy is coming up from our basement steps, and I said, " ; Excuse me, what are you doing there?" ; He says, " ; Oh, I have stuff there." ; I said, " ; Get your stuff out of there and do not ever let me see you here again." ; You know, we have more mouth than brains a lot of times, we did. We still do. And he never came back. And then we took the stairs out. Uh yeah. Amy Starecheski: What was this neighborhood like when you first -- do you remember the first time you ever came here? You came from East Harlem, I assume. What did it feel - what was it like? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. About like East Harlem. We' ; d seen the buildings up on - on Alexander, and thought, " ; Okay, this is a very pretty little part of town. Let' ; s see what' ; s here." ; And that' ; s where we looked first and opted for this house instead. Ray L' ; Dera: They also had a magnificent building on the corner over there. I don' ; t know but, probably a bunch of Shriners or something like that, these guys in blue suits keep coming out and going back and then get in their cars and drive around with the lights flashing [police]. Something we didn' ; t see in East Harlem, but they looked like nice guys so we figured they -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, and they were close in case anybody from there followed us. But the guns were blazing every night you have - but they have that now. It didn' ; t change all that much and nobody ever bothered us. We had Frances down the street who is pushing 100 if she' ; s not there already she says, " ; (laughs) We were the first first black people on this block. And now you' ; re the first white people on this block." ; She is totally tickled by that. So there you go. That' ; s how it works. But anyway it was - you know we - you know we' ; re getting to the end of your stuff, I guess. We brought in the theater. We brought in, you know some gentrification I guess we brought in - not meaning to. Got one of our kids down in the Clock Tower [apartment building] and you know-- I will say we brought - Let' ; s see we did - First place we landed for theater was-- used to be that political theater in the school across from the park - your park. Amy Starecheski: Across from Brook Park? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Yeah and it had a sign up as a political theater, so we wandered in there. And it was falling apart. The guy who was running that portion was just old and sick and he had a nice underling. But they just, you know, couldn' ; t pull it off. And so we - one of our kids went in and took over one of the supposedly drama classes. You know our guys are just off the street here. He' ; s in there, he' ; s teaching because the kids - were using it as - as our study halls. So they started you know, we started putting some teeth into the study halls. Ray L' ; Dera: An interesting side line, the fellow she' ; s talking about was an old teacher there in the school and the theater program was a school program initially. Jose Serrano, Senior. This is where he learned acting. Out of that initial group, I gather was formed Pregones [Theater]. Which of course is a few blocks away and still going, still going strong, But there was theater in the school at that time. So what we were initially going to do was bring in some outside teachers, for lack of a better term, that would establish a school program outside of this structure of the school itself, but in the school space as an outside activity for the kids. That' ; s really how we got established to any degree in the South Bronx. We were already functioning in Manhattan, so this was an expansion. Making the arts more available was the whole goal here. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. I mean every place we went, we were brought in by the person who ran it. But the people who run these places don' ; t last very long. OK. The old man at the public school died in one of the heat waves. He was in bed and the windows closed and so on and they found him in the morning. That was the end of what was going on there. And then we went to the school beside the firehouse, the little school beside the firehouse. OK. And that guy wanted us in and we were in and we worked there for a year, maybe two. Ray L' ; Dera: Well this is United Neighborhood Houses. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: Basically the goal there was to have a unit in all three of their projects. Gordie L' ; Dera: Initially. And the guy who was running it was gung ho for it and we did several shows there. And when we - we started in our own group we' ; d do a show downtown, do a show uptown and then we' ; d reverse. And then we found that the people who were downtown and were supposed to come up didn' ; t want to come up to the Bronx to do their performances so we cut that end of it. Everybody came to the Bronx to rehearse or they weren' ; t part of our group, period. Ray L' ; Dera: And we did the first performance up here just to make sure that they didn' ; t -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Uh huh. And yeah I mean they were happy to do it here and then go downtown but they were not happy to come up here. And I mean if they came up here for rehearsal they already put a couple of weeks, you know the six weeks or so, into the Bronx so they had a better idea what they were dealing with here. And then this guy quit or got fired and as soon as that happened, the people who took over booted our butts out. Amy Starecheski: At United Neighborhood Houses? Gordie L' ; Dera: Well, at that particular house. I' ; m not sure - Ray L' ; Dera: Well, it was a little bit more complicated than that. We were still technically functioning at United Neighborhood Houses facilities. We were conducting classes and small programs that didn' ; t have a performance space, per se. But we were using the lunchroom at um - oh - I' ; m not sure what the name of the project is over here, opposite us. Amy Starecheski: Patterson? Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah. Patterson. Gordie L' ; Dera: I forgot that. I totally forgot that. Ray L' ; Dera: We were there, we were active there for a good while and then we expanded to - and this is just a senior moment I' ; ve missed - I' ; ve lost the names of all three of these uh projects. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s okay. It' ; s fine. Gordie L' ; Dera: So have I. So have I. The big yellow buildings down close to where that - where you guys were. Amy Starecheski: Millbrook. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yes yes. Ray L' ; Dera: We were down there at Millbrook. For a while we had our scene shop and so forth there. We were just starting a photography group - about to start a photography group. Gordie L' ; Dera: Not a photography - a film - filmmaking group. Ray L' ; Dera: We had very good relationship with the young man that was running that facility for UNH. And apparently there was something political going on between UNH and him. At one point as we talked about setting up a film photography project, the question arose, well when the people - when the people that is us, the actors, go, who' ; s going to own the cameras? His response was, " ; Well, they' ; re buying the cameras, so they will own them." ; That didn' ; t sit well. They went through a period of what the newspaper people like to call: ' ; serious discussions,' ; and he left UNH, and that was pretty much the end of us over there at Millbrook. We ended up that they needed the room for a teen group that was extremely disruptive. Gordie L' ; Dera: I' ; d been there before and that' ; s why -- Ray L' ; Dera: I' ; ve been there before and I' ; ve been thrown out. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, they put them out, put that woman out. And as soon as this guy was gone they brought him right back. That was about two years probably. We were there. Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah, so you know basically we simply couldn' ; t stay there because we had no control over our space. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. So they gave us the entire basement and that' ; s a big building. So we had costumes there, we had, you know -- getting rid of costumes was -- the basement was full of them and you know we gave them to another group, similar - that worked similar to ours -- Ray L' ; Dera: Sets -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Sets - just trying to get it out in a short period of time was a bitch, too. Ray L' ; Dera: They just basically - basically they put us almost out of business. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: We still clung to our New York productions. We reset ourselves up without equipment with the Children' ; s Theater here in the Library. Gordie L' ; Dera: And they asked us to come in, you know we were still down there. At that point, we were overextended like crazy. We had our main theater which was still performing downtown. We had teaching children theater, teaching them to act, and doing - doing shows with them. And the library asked us to come in with something else so we took an improv class for kids from six to college. Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah and we were doing occasional tours - we went to New Jersey, we went to Queens -- Gordie L' ; Dera: We' ; ve done that, too. Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: We went to a mental hospital, I mean we were doing all kinds of stuff. Gordie L' ; Dera: We were like (sigh). And holding down jobs. Oh my God. Yeah. And that I mean that- that- that was the- And we had a building down there we wanted to buy or to rent - put a theater in it and artists on the upper floors. And, we used to sell real estate, right? The city here - the guys here: " ; Oh, no, no, you' ; re not a real estate person, you don' ; t know anything." ; Well I found this for $2 dollars -- Ray L' ; Dera: $12 a foot. Gordie L' ; Dera: $12 a foot across the street from where we' ; re looking. " ; Nothing here sells for twelve dollars--" ; whatever - square foot. Well yeah. We just found it. " ; No that' ; s impossible, you can' ; t do this, you' ; re not a real estate person." ; That was it for me. That was it for me. Ray L' ; Dera: I had one opposite the Clock Tower and one on 149th and the broker insisted, no you can' ; t find anything for less than $17 a foot. Well, you just rented that space for $17 a foot, and I just found a full floor -- third floor, with access to a conference room for $12 a foot. Are you telling me I don' ; t know what I' ; m looking for? Gordie L' ; Dera: That was - for me that was the end. I' ; ve just -- I-- you know I' ; ve done this for so long and all of these kids around the neighborhood -- I will say that the majority of the kids who did the improv class and stayed in it went to college. Ray L' ; Dera: We were still-- years after closing this down we' ; d be met on the street: " ; When are you going to bring the theater back? When are you going to bring the theater back?" ; Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. It was hard, you know with politics, pure politics all the way through. Ray L' ; Dera: New moms were coming: " ; see my baby? See my baby?" ; Yeah, just totally involved within the community. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah the one over - over here in the big yellow house we had. I mean we - when we got started - we got all of the space we' ; ve got and this guy who was running the place at the time was really a gung ho thinker and he asked us to - to in addition to what we were doing to do on the street interviews and the kids writing their own scripts. And we thought it was a terrific idea. So we ran up to the college up here and took a class in you know, in film because we' ; ve known diddlyshit about film, you know, we were in theater. So we took a class and came back and we were just about getting started on this thing when the boom came down. Out, you' ; re out. She' ; s back. You' ; re out. And they did several things. For one is they raised the price of their summer babysitting - their summer kids program, to the point where everybody in it had to drop out. They had nobody because nobody could afford the new numbers. And that' ; s when our guy got so angry that he left, he went up to the jail up here for the teenagers who are incarcerated and he' ; s working up there - was working up there - I don' ; t know where he' ; s working now. Well you know when he left we were hanging out in the wind. So anyway - that' ; s our sad tale. Amy Starecheski: What year was it that - like around when was it that you closed down the theater? Do you remember? Probably about 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. That sounds right. You said that it was hard to get people to come up here for the theater. Gordie L' ; Dera: From - from Manhattan, yeah. Amy Starecheski: Like when you first moved here what was this neighborhood' ; s reputation like? Gordie L' ; Dera: Oh it was horrible because this was the worst place in the world. You' ; re going to get mugged, raped and carried on - you know carried away somewhere as soon as you get off the subway. We probably -- Ray L' ; Dera: And it wasn' ; t very far from that, sometimes. It was rough. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah it was rough. Ray L' ; Dera: Pardon me. Gordie L' ; Dera: But if you mind your own business nobody ever bothered you. Well yeah. Adam got robbed of his phone -- Ray L' ; Dera: His cell phone. Gordie L' ; Dera: --on the stoop one night. He was just about to open the door and they came running and grabbed his phone. Oh was he pissed off. But on the other hand he said, " ; I was one. They were four or five. They took my phone." ; And he was glad they didn' ; t take anything else. But that' ; s the only-- I never had-- I mean I' ; ve walked these streets and I was what, 50. I guess when we came up here about that range and never had any problem with anyone. I mean, you did the guy with the dog. That mean dog across the street. He just got-- I think Gramps kicked him off our dog and he just gave him a, you know, knocked him right down. And I guess he realized it was an older guy he had just, you know -- Ray L' ; Dera: And then he tries to help me up and I said, " ; Don' ; t bother, I' ; ve been sucker punched before." ; Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah but he didn' ; t chain his dog. You know it' ; s just obnoxious - But and then you' ; ve never had any trouble either, have you? It' ; s been a great place to live. The kids went to school. They went to school in East Harlem. Grade school, anyway. We were right across the street from the math and science school down there and they had a special chil- That' ; s where they had that guitar woman. I think it was guitar. Anyway she had the music program there. An excellent little school directly across the street from our house. We left them there and it wasn' ; t too far to take them. Ray L' ; Dera: One of the fascinating things of this whole pre-gentrification period - and it has been pre-gentrification all this time, depending on where you are, literally sometimes block, block, block there' ; d be a difference. But one of the fascinating things about it is the number of people who have, like us, like the woman who set up the class with the guitar in the school, the library, the amount of effort that has gone and continues to go into the education of our kids. It' ; s phenomenal in many ways because -because they' ; re in this petri dish. They see the interactions, the reactions, the re-reactions. How, this whole thing we call civilization sort of bubbles up. It' ; s an education. I almost think we should change our educational system to where everybody has to go to the disadvantaged schools. The strength and resilience -- that the kids can survive it is terrific. Um the only thing I can compare it to would be in medicine, having the courage to take on an experimental cure for cancer. You know, sure your chances of being killed are pretty high, it' ; s higher than anything else, but your chances of recovery are also higher. And that' ; s what we' ; ve done with this whole two or three generations of our urban children. We' ; ve raised a tremendously strong bunch of young men, Obamas, that have come out of this. We' ; ve raised a tremendously strong bunch of - Well being politically correct I' ; m not going to comment on what came out of the other side - on the wealthy side. But -- Amy Starecheski: Say what you want to say. It' ; s okay. Ray L' ; Dera: But the comparison -- the difference. Gordie L' ; Dera: We had - when we bought the building, there were two tenants, top floor and second down. The second one we never saw. She just took her stuff and left before - before we had you know even came in and had the house. The guy on the top floor had two sons. One was in and out of jail and the other one was 14 or 15. And the sweetest kid. And he used to sit in the hallway so he could hear us as a family, and talk about feeling bad on that one. So we kind of adopted him and then we found out he was selling weed from the hallway and told him, " ; No, we don' ; t care if you sell weed, but you cannot sell it in the house." ; And his father left and left him no rent, no nothing, just walked off and left and he went over to the projects and lived with his girlfriend, after that. But he stayed here for a little while before mom over there let him come. And I tried to get him a job. I was in market research on the phone. You know I figured he' ; d be good on the phones, but he didn' ; t write well enough, so they wouldn' ; t hire him. So I didn' ; t know what else to do. But he was telling his, you know some buddies out there one day: " ; No, she tried to get me a job. No, she was not harming me, she was helping me." ; Got married and moved. You know, and now every time he comes back to the city, he comes by and knocks. Ray L' ; Dera: Went -- he went down South to his Grandma to live after all of this. And first time I saw him he was out there on the street big grin on his face, pretty girl on his other arm, and on his other arm, a baby. Gordie L' ; Dera: So he made out OK. But man, I mean how could you walk off and leave him, I mean he was 14, 15, you know, no money no job. Why am I-- what did he expect us to do with him? Throw him on the street. You know, I mean it' ; s what he was doing in effect. I mean it' ; s just -- Amy Starecheski: Did you make friends around here? Tell me about some of the people that you got to know. Gordie L' ; Dera: Well really only the neighbors. Well and Mychal [Johnson] and you know some of the political guys. But well - uh - What the devil is his name? Ray L' ; Dera: Calvin. Gordie L' ; Dera: Calvin. He had a son exactly between our grandsons. And then they became bosom buddies. We went out one day and then Adam and I can' ; t remember the kid' ; s name Ray L' ; Dera: Cally [phonetic]. Gordie L' ; Dera: Cally, were trying to pull the fence down. They wanted to have the yard all to themselves. You know he didn' ; t have to want to come around to come in and they were tight. They were all you know he was over here. They were over there all the time. Ray L' ; Dera: We didn' ; t make close friends in the sense of a suburban community. Gordie L' ; Dera: No, no. We never did anywhere. We - I mean East Harlem we had a lot of friends from the group. Ray L' ; Dera: My experience is, in neighborhoods like this, at least if you come in from outside, is that you will have street friends and house friends. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: House friends are the very few that you meet that you actually develop a friendship with and they' ; re usually, if it' ; s a multiple-dwelling, people who live in the same building, our situation. Gordie L' ; Dera: Oh. Carol. Ray L' ; Dera: You' ; re basically house friends. You come into our house, we go into your house, kind of thing. Street friends will divide into political, your own block, -- People you fight with have a tendency to become friends. Gordie L' ; Dera: Orlando. Ray L' ; Dera: Obviously we fought with and he has become very close to a close friend. But it' ; s on the stoop. Gordie L' ; Dera: And Orlando. Yeah. Orlando was-- before you guys he was shoveling our snow. We' ; d go out in the morning and it was done. You know, we' ; re old. Thank you, Calvin. Or, not Calvin. Amy Starecheski: Orlando. Gordie L' ; Dera: Orlando. He was there for us always. And now we miss - miss him like hell. I guess Frances, but she can' ; t come out anymore if she' ; s still alive. I haven' ; t seen her grandson for a couple of weeks now and he' ; s there every day. Of course I think he was there to see her guardianship person, her pretty young woman I think that was more why he was there because they were always out on- sitting on the bench. So I don' ; t know whether -- Ray L' ; Dera: Well it' ; s not so nice for sitting in the yard [this time of year]. We had the nurse, the army nurse, that owned the corner house when we first came here. She died, the last old white, if you will. Gordie L' ; Dera: And Gordie-Ray wanted that house so bad but we just couldn' ; t afford it. Ray L' ; Dera: And then across the way, had curvature of the spine. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah I' ; d forgotten. Ray L' ; Dera: His wife was so terrified that she would be burying him and she took care of him and she died first. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, and he was here a long time after. Ray L' ; Dera: And he was here a good five years after she died. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. That' ; s up for auction, we hear. Nice house. Amy Starecheski: Which one? Gordie L' ; Dera: On the corner up here. Not this side, the other side of the street. Amy Starecheski: Oh the one with the storefront? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Mr. James? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah I believe it was. Ray L' ; Dera: We have Don down here. We' ; ve known Don since before senility hit him. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yes. Ray L' ; Dera: Which, I think before senility hit him because he really hasn' ; t changed much. Gordie L' ; Dera: No he is -- oh man, you had to avoid him if you were in a hurry because you can' ; t get away from it but-- still but boy he was a talker. Lonely, lonely old man. I don' ; t know but - Frances oh I did say Frances, her daughter in the house next door, they were friends and they' ; re both--No, she' ; s still alive, but the husband died. They moved over to Tom' ; s River. Then, he died and he was the healthiest looking guy around. That was hard. And the only time we were in their house was selling Girl Scout cookies. So it was not a friend in the house thing, but for Girl Scout cookies you got to come in. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s sweet. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Did you- when you first came here what did you like - did you expect that the neighborhood would change over time? What did you think was going to happen with that? Gordie L' ; Dera: Well we know they change. I mean I don' ; t know whether we were expecting any particular thing but they were already building these little houses. We knew it was in process of change at that point. And we didn' ; t really think there was anything wrong with it. You know, too many projects. But by and large it was as good a neighborhood as we had anywhere in the city when we were - you know, similar. We' ; ve always lived in similar, I guess since the ladies with the skirts up around their hips. You know, I kind of lean toward that kind of - And so does he. Ray L' ; Dera: It had a sense of community that downtown Brooklyn lacked. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: Downtown Brooklyn, uh Fort Greene, it had no existing community. I' ; d have to give the Panthers credit for that, quite frankly. They -however negatively and however mono-racially they approached things, they did bring a sense of ' ; us,' ; kind of thing, at least to the select group that they dealt with. Harlem, you have people like Adam Clayton in Harlem who really gave us a feeling: this is our neighborhood and we can do something with it. El Barrio, was the sense of home, center, to the Latino and more particularly Puerto Rican community - um this was the old Irish 5th Avenue and a lot of that sense of solidarity simply transferred to the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans that came in here. It was chipped away later, I think, with drugs. That created a separation, not only between races, but between generations as well. I know that my attitude toward grass is not nearly as comfortable as Gordie' ; s, and certainly nowhere near as comfortable as Adam. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: I have a strong aversion to drugs. I' ; m very conservative on that particular point. Partially because I' ; m an alcoholic, I have my own drug. But that created a schism, I think, within the community: if you' ; re a druggie, you' ; re not a part of me. It was between parent and children, it was between neighbor and neighbor' ; s children, as it became- again if you have nothing else -- and you' ; re grasping at anything for comfort. Just by the amount of money in one' ; s pocket -- poverty creates some of the actual addiction. I can be an addict as a white man, and I have all sorts of support. I can be an addict as a Puerto Rican or a Black man, and again I' ; m going back a few years when the financial separation was greater, and I have nothing but the street. I' ; m on the street, I' ; m visible, I' ; m upsetting people, I' ; m begging on the train. " ; Those horrible people." ; And that' ; s what creates that separation. This neighborhood when we came here still had a lot of that sense of community. As I say, it was gone completely when we first went into downtown Brooklyn. By the time we came here, downtown Brooklyn and all around: Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Fort Green, Clinton Hill, was solidly middle to upper-middle class and predominately white, or -- I sold a house in Clinton Hill to the -- what the hell was his title? He wasn' ; t Consul but was consular office to one of the African countries. So when you start saying black-white, he really was -- would have been listed among the white, in that case. So what - what happened in a lot of communities was that division: largely drugs, largely poverty. So you had a cohesive community as well as separate communities, all occupying the same space. We are becoming more of a cohesive community, I think. Some of it is, quite frankly we buy our weed from state-licensed drugstores now. It' ; s just not the same time. It' ; s time just as much as place. Gordie L' ; Dera: However who is coming in now are the same people who came in at the second wave or third wave in Fort Greene and in Boerum Hill. They' ; re the people who wouldn' ; t take a chance on the neighborhood before, but now that you' ; re here, they' ; ll take a chance on it, and I don' ; t think there' ; s any way to beat that. I think that' ; s just a way of life. Ray L' ; Dera: Well the challenge there I think is -- I' ; m sorry for interrupting. Gordie L' ; Dera: No, no, no. Go. Ray L' ; Dera: The challenge is to pull those people in. Right now I think the area on the other side of 138th Street down by Bruckner? In the Clock Tower and the new buildings that are going up there are creating a new, separate community, a different little world. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yep, yep. Ray L' ; Dera: If we want to be a larger community, it' ; s going to be necessary for the people who are community-conscious here to go out and go to the coffee shops, find your way into the community meetings, create some of those bridges. The alternative is to have what we now have in downtown Brooklyn, where we have Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, you know, these separate little units that are all infinitely much better than anybody else. It' ; s not racial, it' ; s geographic now. Gordie L' ; Dera: And becoming here, yeah. As this stuff goes on, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: And I think that we have a great deal of that happening here. It' ; s things that terrifies me with these market buildings going up on 138th. They are isolated communities besides isolated communities. I' ; m delighted at seeing our projects move over into-- away from low income into mixed income. That' ; s a huge step in the right direction. I would like to see more buildings come in that' ; ll be more mixed rather than simply market rate because the market rate has a habit of defining itself, and all frequently it defines itself down as people simply don' ; t have the money to live. I can' ; t predict what' ; s going to happen in this community over the next 20 years. I hope it' ; s solid and I hope that we' ; ll build those bridges and I hope that it' ; ll become a larger community, because quite frankly this little piece, say from Brook to 145th to uh 3rd down to 138th, that pretty much defines a community, right here. I think we' ; re a whole lot stronger as a community with a larger geographic base. Gordie L' ; Dera: Let me ask you a question: the little houses that they built, you know. Do you have friends in those houses? Amy Starecheski: The little row houses? Gordie L' ; Dera: Uh huh. Amy Starecheski: No, and I was actually just about to ask you about those little houses because that' ; s part of what I' ; m interested in, so -- Gordie L' ; Dera: They should be, the crossover, but -- Amy Starecheski: Yeah when you first moved here it was -- there was still more vacant land, right? And they were just starting to build those little houses? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Just starting, yeah. Amy Starecheski: So, I' ; m very interested in that. I want to hear what you noticed about how them being built changed the neighborhood, if you ever met any of the people who lived in them or live in them. Gordie L' ; Dera: I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t think I know anybody. I mean we used to go around from door to door with our flyers trying to get people out for the theater but I don' ; t know. Ray L' ; Dera: My impression is only an impression, I don' ; t really know any of them personally, anyone that owns any of the houses, but my impression is that they consider themselves locked in a permanent battle with the street people. It' ; s a culture within a culture, because again, we can' ; t get away from race and economics. Those of us that were the brownstoners, the first people that broke these neighborhoods if you want to think about it that way, always had someplace else to go. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: We could give it a try and if it didn' ; t work, we could go back to __________, or West Chester or Flatbush, or what have you. I think. But most of the people that go into these small houses - because usually there' ; s an income requirement to get them, are new to the middle class and are at the lower edge of the middle class and they' ; re struggling mightily. They are also in many cases new to racially-integrated neighborhoods. They are Blacks or Latinos who' ; ve had very little close, friendly relationships with white people or wealthier people, you know they are aspiring. They' ; re on their way up and they don' ; t want anything to interfere with that. When you either have everything or nothing, your choices, your possibilities are unlimited, but when you' ; ve got a little bit that you have to protect, you have very, very, very few chances that you can take. And again this is not based on meeting with any individual person, but it' ; s the feeling I get. Frankly I think the city would have been better off building more of these. Amy Starecheski: Denser. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: And letting them co-op. Gordie L' ; Dera: Do any of those come over to Brook Park? Amy Starecheski: Oh, not much. A little bit. There' ; s a couple of people that come around, but, do you remember what people thought when they first built them? When they first were building them like what you thought when they first were building them, or did people talk about it? Was it like exciting, were people worried for it, against it, were there debates? Ray L' ; Dera: I don' ; t remember any, I think it was just handed to it. Gordie L' ; Dera: No. I think they were by and large glad to get rid of the vacant lots. Ray L' ; Dera: Yep. Anything was better. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: And even more the vacant buildings that were being torched. Gordie L' ; Dera: But as far as the neighborhood uprising one way or another, I don' ; t remember any - any discussion of it. Amy Starecheski: Can you - so you came here in ' ; 91? Ish? Gordie L' ; Dera: Was it ' ; 91? Amy Starecheski: I can look it up. Ray L' ; Dera: ' ; 91. Gordie L' ; Dera: Ish. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. So you' ; ve been here for over 25 years. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Are there moments that stand out to you when you noticed things changing in any way? Gordie L' ; Dera: Well, we used to have meetings up at the hospital, community meetings, but I haven' ; t seen those for a very long time. Amy Starecheski: Up at Lincoln Hospital? Gordie L' ; Dera: Uh huh. Uh huh. And it used to be pretty well occupied, you know, when you had those and people had opinions. Amy Starecheski: Who - not community board meetings, but community -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Community, as well as community -- you know, all kinds of stuff was held up at the hospital. And I don' ; t remember those recently at all. Mychal over here is the voice of the community now as far as I can see. There used to be several voices of the community, none of whose names I can remember, but I guess - Ray L' ; Dera: Well some of that is people like us. Me, specifically, I' ; ll take the blame for myself. I simply dropped out of community activity. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. So have I, actually. And it was worth our while when we had the theater here to go to them, so. Ray L' ; Dera: I can' ; t think of anything in particular. It' ; s been a gradual movement to wherever the neighborhood is today, I don' ; t-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Well there was noise when the artists started to come in here. You know the guys down there - the artists that were over there - what' ; s her name? Across the block? Amy Starecheski: Linda? Gordie L' ; Dera: Linda. Yeah, and they came in during about a 10 - 10 year period where they started showing up here and there where they had not been before. Before - the - since we' ; ve been here, the old housing - the old furniture guys. Amy Starecheski: Yeah, the antiques district. Yes Gordie L' ; Dera: They' ; ve been down there. They were there when we came and I gather they' ; re still there, although I haven' ; t walked down there for a while. Amy Starecheski: Less of them, actually. Gordie L' ; Dera: Less them, yeah. Amy Starecheski: Did you see that little antiques district and think like, " ; oh, maybe this neighborhood' ; s gonna--" ; Gordie L' ; Dera: We did. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Gordie L' ; Dera: We did. You know, it can' ; t be all bad. And when we had the dog he used to walk down there all the time, now I never go down there, I have no reason to. I need a dog. I need a dog, dear. Amy Starecheski: You should share Anna' ; s dog, like how we' ; re sharing Anna' ; s cat. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah, except she still won' ; t come to me. She' ; ll run with me, but she won' ; t come to me. Amy Starecheski: I think you just have to -- I don' ; t know, there' ; s a moment when she' ; s on a leash and she just doesn' ; t have a choice anymore. But, there was something else I was just gonna ask. Oh, so when you, when you, you know you saw that you had bought houses in Brooklyn for $13,000.00, that then maybe 15 years, 20 years later were worth a million dollars? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: When you bought this house did you, like were you hoping that that would happen again? Were you -- I don' ; t know did you think that this neighborhood was gonna be different than that? Cause you know you said, like, it happens everywhere, but it doesn' ; t happen the same everywhere. Like, you know, I don' ; t know that this neighborhood' ; s gonna be Boerum Hill, or that East Harlem is gonna be Boerum Hill or that this neighborhood' ; s gonna be East Harlem. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: You know, there' ; s sort of a trajectory, but it' ; s not always the same, and it' ; s not always in a straight line. Gordie L' ; Dera: Well it still is sort of the same because the artists were the first ones to come in here. And those are pretty dependable, they' ; re looking for cheap places where they don' ; t have to hold down permanent jobs. And that' ; s usually your first sign. And I guess we were part of that first sign. And then, but that stopped. I mean, they' ; re not, then they stopped coming in by hordes in droves and it just petered out. And the next step? The brownstones. And most of them are to the point where they' ; re out of reach of regular people. And I don' ; t, I mean that' ; s it for these - that' ; s 25 years I' ; m talking about. We were early, probably too early. But now because the visual artists were starting to come in, shortly-- We were first and maybe 10 years after us they started, they think about it. They started coming in. Ray L' ; Dera: I have an analogy on these neighborhoods. They' ; re kind of like slaughterhouses. The first ones to come through the gates, the artists, are kind of like the goats. They' ; re not necessarily all that friendly. They don' ; t smell good, but they do get to the door safely. And then come the fat, woolly sheep. Not too much happens to them, they come through, they' ; re shorn, and then come the little lambs being led to the slaughter. Those people that spend a million dollars for a $20,000.00 house. Gordie L' ; Dera: And then they can' ; t sell it. Ray L' ; Dera: They can' ; t sell it. They can' ; t pay for it. There was a time when they burned them. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: We could see that again. It' ; s hard to see that when you walk South Portland Avenue, or Willow Street, or even 116th Street or even 138th, or Alexander. It' ; s hard to see people torching their homes, but if they can' ; t get -- if they' ; ve got it insured for more than the market rate, that happens. And I think it' ; s likely to just keep going until it repeats itself. Amy Starecheski: I feel like there was some of that around 2008 here where people bought houses that they thought were gonna -- they paid more than they were worth, they thought they were gonna go up and then the housing crisis came and the whole thing collapsed for, you know another, 7 or 8 years after that. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: The thing to me is to find something that you want. If I were a young man, looking to establish a world and a family, I don' ; t think that I would waste my time with the girls at Brynn Mawr, the movie stars, I' ; d want somebody like Gordie. It pays off knowing what you want and keeping it. But, it' ; s a pretty decent -- as good of an analogy as the sheep and the goats. And the problem is finding people that know what they can handle, and yes, aspire to more but take it in stages. I' ; ve seen in New Orleans in just a couple of years that we' ; ve been there and a couple more years that I' ; ve been watching it, housing prices going completely crazy right after a Mardi Gras. All these people come down here, or there, it' ; s warm, there' ; s stuff going on, it' ; s exciting and they buy these houses, and then I see them, bankruptcy, foreclosure, in the Fall. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s amazing. Ray L' ; Dera: They just roll over. Gordie L' ; Dera: Or wives who are - I have two friends down there, who - they' ; ve picked up and moved down and sold their houses there, you know, they closed up where they were, and those women are so unhappy, they don' ; t like New Orleans, the husbands love New Orleans, they don' ; t like them and they have no place to go back to. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: You said that, you - you know you feel most comfortable, most at home, not just in New York, but in New York in neighborhoods that are-- Gordie L' ; Dera: Like this. Amy Starecheski: Like this. Gordie L' ; Dera: I' ; ve been in them all my life, all my adult life - put it that way. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Tell me more about what you like about neighborhoods like this. Gordie L' ; Dera: You can walk out there and talk to anybody on the street and they will talk back to you. They' ; re friendly, they' ; re nice people, Subway' ; s right there. What do I like about these neighborhoods? And they' ; re open. Mainly that the people are open. Where if you' ; re in a pure white neighborhood, they' ; re all protecting themselves from everybody else. Here, you don' ; t have to protect yourself, it' ; s free and open. Again, it' ; s to go out and be able to talk to anybody out there. And, I guess it' ; s the most of it. And I have no fear of it. Once in a while coming through that -- late at night -- coming through that thing in town there. Amy Starecheski: Where the sidewalk' ; s all covered over with the construction scaffolding. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: I don' ; t pass through there either. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Amy Starecheski: What about you, Ray? You said that you like neighborhoods like this, not just because you could afford but because you like it. Ray L' ; Dera: Pretty much what Gordie said. All the things that Gordie said and I would add one more, that I don' ; t have to. I don' ; t have to be a nice guy. I can go around, the worst grunge you ever saw, and, " ; oh, he' ; s a character." ; That acceptance extends pretty all the way, as long as you' ; re not actually hurting anybody. It' ; s perfectly acceptable, whatever the hell you wanna do. Gordie L' ; Dera: The little film we just did - this is from the international group that they' ; re training, and our girl was Dutch and she got confused on where we were supposed to -- there were two Lucy' ; s and both of them sent their e-mails and they crossed in my connecter because they' ; re both Lucy, so my phone took -- So anyway she says, " ; where are we supposed to meet again?" ; And I' ; m thinking it' ; s the other Lucy, so I say the house rather than downtown. So that poor kid schleps up here and she said, later she said, " ; I love your neighborhood, those people are so nice." ; She says, " ; I went in the store and I asked if I could - I said can I borrow your phone for a minute because my phone-- And he says, ' ; oh here let me plug it in for you.' ; And he did my phone." ; And she says, " ; where would people do stuff like that? It' ; s such a nice neighborhood, the people are so nice." ; So she doesn' ; t have the American stuff that' ; s already been shoved in our heads. She' ; s just a pretty pretty - she' ; s a pretty girl. Anyway, no problem. You know I said everybody would' ; ve tried to help her because she' ; s so cute. But, anyway, yeah. Amy Starecheski: Have you ever sensed or directly experience hostility as a white person in this neighborhood? Gordie L' ; Dera: No. What we have experienced, in the last couple of weeks, we were standing on the stoop and this Black kid comes by and he says, " ; you guys live here?" ; We said, " ; yes." ; He said, " ; how long you guys been here?" ; I said, " ; 25 years." ; He said, " ; 25- You ride the number six train?" ; " ; Yeah!" ; " ; Oh my God, you' ; re brave." ; I said, " ; have you ridden the train? Go over there and take a ride." ; You know, he' ; s a Black guy. You know, and he' ; s giving us this - and he' ; s straight with it, and I don' ; t think he was busting us. I think he was straight asking, what are these people doing here? And then he wandered off. But well yeah, you know? Look around you. People are friendly here. I got the gas pains in my stomach I go over to the kid over there and I say, " ; what do you have for me? Do you have any Gas-X or anything like that?" ; He says, " ; no I don' ; t but let me look. OK try this. This' ; ll work better," ; and it did, you know. So you' ; re never going to get that in the drugstore in midtown. Never in a million years. And this wasn' ; t a drugstore. This was just a little, the little guy- the guy around the corner with all the junk store. It' ; s just - it' ; s just so much easier to live here. You don' ; t have to be on guard all the time, you can be yourself. It' ; s like Lel [Leslie] said, you could be yourself. Ray L' ; Dera: I' ; ve had one that I could by a stretch a racial incident here. I' ; ve had a couple in Harlem, I' ; ve had a couple in downtown Brooklyn, but here, only the one. I was walking the dog, and he did his business, and I hear a voice up above and -- from the projects, " ; you better clean that up, white boy!" ; So I look up, " ; always do, Black boy." ; Gordie L' ; Dera: Shame on you. Ray L' ; Dera: That' ; s about as close to a racial incident as I' ; ve had. Gordie L' ; Dera: I got the same thing with the dog. Two ladies on the first floor, looking out their window, and the dog, you know is gonna take a dump and he' ; s a big boy, he takes big dumps, so I' ; m standing there waiting for him and they' ; re up there and the window saying, " ; Goddamn these people come in here, these white people come in here, and look what they do, their dogs poop and they' ; re gonna walk off and leave it." ; I pull out my garbage bag and I clean up and they said, " ; Oh my goodness. Thank you." ; " ; You' ; re welcome. I do it all the time." ; Yep. But, they can switch. They may get an opinion of you initially but it may not stay that way, except for the kid who couldn' ; t believe we lived here, and that was, what just two weeks ago? It' ; s weird. Amy Starecheski: Time warp or something. Ray L' ; Dera: I think we all walk around with a bag full of assumptions subject to further proof and it' ; s the only way to live. We were on the subway train, I usually would -- rather than get off when I' ; m below 14th Street, I just stay on the damn train and ride it around, I' ; ve always got a seat that way. And the train pulled into the Brooklyn Bridge on the downtown side and a couple of guys, tough, toughs or wanna-be toughs, you can never be quite sure, got on, and Gordie said, " ; Get off." ; Now they may have been perfectly fine executives at one of the brokerage houses but they just didn' ; t look like it. Gordie L' ; Dera: But my radar was on. And you live - in New York you live with your radar tuned. Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah. It' ; s what' ; s called reasonable concern, and some of that is by color as well as anything else. For example, my experience with people with red shirts is that they' ; re usually very argumentative and not very nice to be around, and they don' ; t bathe very often, but, I have known people with red shirts that are not that way. Amy Starecheski: Good. I should say for the tape that I' ; m wearing a red shirt. Ray L' ; Dera: Let' ; s ask how we live in New York, is by our accumulated - it' ; s called experience. Gordie L' ; Dera: Anyway, these - these three guys he' ; s talking about came tearing into the train laughing like, you know, crazy, drunk as a skunk and looking for trouble. I grabbed him and I said, " ; Come," ; You know, " ; We go." ; I said let' ; s watch if there' ; s anything in the news tomorrow about three guys attacking people on the subways. They were looking for trouble. Anyway and I don' ; t want to be the last car on the train nobody else there, going around that stretch. A lot of times you get, " ; It stopped. It' ; s the last stop, aren' ; t you getting off?" ; " ; Nope. Nope. We' ; re OK. We' ; ll ride for a while in the dark." ; Anyway. Amy Starecheski: Is there anything that I- that I should have asked you that I didn' ; t? Gordie L' ; Dera: I can' ; t think of anything. Amy Starecheski: Anything that you wanted to talk about that I didn' ; t get to? Gordie L' ; Dera: Other than I think it' ; s a terrific neighborhood and I' ; d like to see it stay that way and I don' ; t want it to be taken over by people who are better than us. Amy Starecheski: The Camp Bells. Gordie L' ; Dera: Uh huh, the Camp Bells. Amy Starecheski: Is there anything that we' ; ve talked about that you' ; d wanted to say anything about? Ray L' ; Dera: I can' ; t think of anything. Gordie L' ; Dera: I can' ; t think of anything, either. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m sure I' ; ll come back with more follow up questions, but I feel like I covered most of what I was thinking about. Let me just think for a minute - if there' ; s anything else I wanted to make sure to ask. Do you remember the first time you ever came to this building? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yes. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about it? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. We' ; d been over looking at that brownstone over there and you know we were getting desperate at this point because you don' ; t want your kids walking corpses, yeah. and not enough money either, so you' ; re looking for something cheap. And then he says, " ; OK, you' ; re not going to like this but I want you to look at it anyway." ; And he just assumed that I was not going to go for this building. So we walk in the building - Ray L' ; Dera: Because you said you only wanted a brownstone. Gordie L' ; Dera: Well, I did want a brownstone. But I walk in this building and we' ; ve got two daughters and we have grandchildren and we have four floors and - yeah, yeah, this can work. This can work. That was it. Ray L' ; Dera: And also because of the way the hill slopes and the height of the stoop, it' ; s absolutely perfect to build a ramp for a wheelchair. And what I thought, was that number one, we could have our own home. Sort of like dividing up the family farm and letting each of the kids put up a house, the family stays together but it' ; s separated as the kids grow up, and, in large part, it - it worked. Gordie L' ; Dera: It worked. Yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: We had our separation but we still had the dependability of each one there. We were able to watch the kids and be there when we needed to be. They were able to watch us and take off when they could. Gordie L' ; Dera: And the grandchildren were with us all the time. Ray L' ; Dera: Yup. Gordie L' ; Dera: I mean all the time. Ray L' ; Dera: That' ; s the down side you don' ; t think about. And in effect, we' ; ve been able to do the same thing since. My comparison to a commune, a kibbutz, it' ; s the closest thing I know of, to what we' ; ve got now. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. The kids up here know they can come down here and use the place. But, you know, they don' ; t. They should, they don' ; t. Gordie-Ray has trouble in the city with her allergies. She' ; s got- I don' ; t know how she' ; s going to survive New Orleans, but she' ; ll be down there. She' ; s terrified to fly. Well, he, first time, I guess we were, well it' ; s a short flight we were probably down to - when they were down South. And the - the the woman who was-- OK, what are they called? Ray L' ; Dera: Flight attendant? Gordie L' ; Dera: Flight attendant. Thank you, had a heavy perfume on and he was wheezing like crazy. Then she stops and says, " ; What can I do to help you?" ; He says, " ; I have- it' ; s your perfume." ; She ran back and she washed off what she could, but you can' ; t-- I mean you' ; re stuck with it. And you know Gordie-Ray is allergic to almost everything in the universe. So she' ; s going to have a bitch of a time and she may have to go by herself because John may not get the time off and this is when the babies are -- Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. She said, " ; Should I go down before and be there to help? Should I have-" ; and I said, " ; No, you should wait till the babies are born because you don' ; t know how long you' ; re going to be able to stay." ; Amy Starecheski: How did the broker- what did the - how did the broker sell you this neighborhood at that - do you remember when you were talking to like a real estate broker in ' ; 91, trying to sell a brownstone on Alexander? Gordie L' ; Dera: He' ; s a guy- he' ; s a guy who has an old law [tenement] like ours down the street a ways on 138th Street and I saw him the other day, and some guy is saying to him, " ; I want you to get me something like you' ; ve got." ; And he said, " ; I don' ; t do that anymore. I haven' ; t done that for years." ; But I don' ; t know where we got him, do you remember? Ray L' ; Dera: I honestly don' ; t know. Gordie L' ; Dera: I don' ; t either. Ray L' ; Dera: I know he had a house -he may have been when we were looking at 124th Street, actually. Because he had, anyway, a brownstone, on -- right around the corner from 124th, I forget what that street is. Gordie L' ; Dera: Is that by the park down there? Ray L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Three or four doors -- Gordie L' ; Dera: Where we wanted to go was the park. Amy Starecheski: Like Marcus Garvey Park? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: I- oh I - for years I wanted that house. I love that park. Gordie L' ; Dera: Drooling, drooling. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s a beautiful neighborhood. Ray L' ; Dera: But we may have picked him there. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, I don' ; t know where we got him. Ray L' ; Dera: He had this one and one on Alexander. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Nice guy. He was not - not Mychal. He was sharp, and we knew he was, you know, kibbutizing, us, I don' ; t know, I can' ; t think of the word I want. Amy Starecheski: Kibbutzing? Gordie L' ; Dera: No, not the right one, but we knew he was selling, hard. But eh so what? That' ; s what they do. That' ; s what we did. That' ; s how you sell houses. Amy Starecheski: Right. Gordie L' ; Dera: But, I don' ; t think he was much longer. I think he was pretty- and he used to go to the meetings and so on when we had, but then I didn' ; t see him for a long time. He was a little, scrawny guy. Amy Starecheski: White? Was he a white guy? Gordie L' ; Dera: White guy. Yeah, yeah. Ray L' ; Dera: Another one of those guys could never survive in this neighborhood [sarcastic]. Gordie L' ; Dera: Lives here. Yeah, yeah. Amy Starecheski: When there community meetings up at the hospital, do you remember who organized them? Gordie L' ; Dera: No I don' ; t. I don' ; t know any of their names anymore. Amy Starecheski: Just curious. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah, me too. But I don' ; t remember. I mean, I don' ; t even know what they were yelling about. I mean they had something they were unhappy with or there wouldn' ; t have been meetings, but I can' ; t remember what in those days what was going on. Ray L' ; Dera: It doesn' ; t matter. Gordie L' ; Dera: See? I don' ; t help. Amy Starecheski: You' ; re super helpful. Gordie L' ; Dera: If we don' ; t have a baseball game, we' ; ll yell anyway. Gordie L' ; Dera: That' ; s true. That' ; s true. Yeah. They' ; re putting the new stadium up there. Oh my God I was so mad at that one. They had that terrific playground for the kids which now has the ballpark on it. Were you here yet when that was here? Yeah, yeah. And the only place in the city that I know of where they could do their roller skating. Amy Starecheski: Alright, well you guys have been amazing this has been really, really fantastic. Gordie L' ; Dera: Well, good. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s so neat to get to hear the sort of trajectory from Brooklyn to East Harlem to here. I' ; ll loan it to you if you want, I was just looking at this book actually about that early brownstoning movement in Brooklyn and I bet you' ; ll know the people in it and stuff, it' ; s a history book. Gordie L' ; Dera: We were the people in it. Amy Starecheski: Yes! I' ; ll - so you should take a look at it, you might find it interesting. Gordie L' ; Dera: He did another one of the racial things that he should have been - should have been shot for. What was that one, with the guy? Ray L' ; Dera: Oh, yes. This was in Fort Green - the Panthers? Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. Well the guy who - well, go ahead. We' ; ll see if it' ; s the same story. Ray L' ; Dera: No, this is- I don' ; t think I' ; ve told this one today. I worked very closely for a time with a lay preacher named Laroy Cole [phonetic] in Fort Green. What we were trying to do was to get our indigenous people, the Blacks and Latinos, to put the pennies together while the houses were cheap to go ahead and buy the damn things. And we had a great deal of resistance largely from organizations like - like the Panthers, who were working from the premise of if a bunch of white people are asking us to do it, that' ; s the best reason not to do it. Anyway, Laroy called up a meeting, this was a storefront church. Called up a meeting, house was packed, and I made my little presentation, Laroy made his little presentation, you heard from the program, we' ; ll help you, we' ; ll work with you, if you' ; re at all interested, and so forth. And from the back of the room, this guy in a fatigue shirt and a fatigue hat, I remember him as a little guy, and, " ; You come around here, and I' ; ll burn your goddamn house down, I got a perfect right!" ; And I looked at him and I said, " ; You may have, but then I got a perfect right to fill your Black ass full of buckshot." ; And then silent! Silent! Laroy turned white. The panther turned white. And over here a chuckle, and then another little chuckle over there and then pretty soon, roar! We never saw the guy in the neighborhood again. I always did have too big a mouth for my brain. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yes, yes. I have it, too. Surprising we lived this long. Ray L' ; Dera: But it was effective. Didn' ; t get anybody to buy a house but it eased the tension in the room. Gordie L' ; Dera: I' ; m walking - okay, again, in Harlem, when we were working with Harlem housing problems, I learned never to take a pocketbook. I don' ; t carry a purse, period, because you' ; re a mark. So, if it doesn' ; t fit in my pockets, it doesn' ; t go. Anyway, this has nothing to do with this story, it just, you know. I' ; m walking along, and this Black woman comes out and says, " ; What are you doing here, are you cutting into my neighborhood, sleazy girl?" ; I said, " ; excuse me, this is my sidewalk, too." ; " ; Oh, okay." ; You just have to stand up, you can' ; t, you know, and if you stand down, you' ; re going to be a mark in that neighborhood forever. Don' ; t be a mark in your own neighborhood, that' ; s the thing to take home. Amy Starecheski: Do you wish you' ; d kept any of those houses in Brooklyn? Gordie L' ; Dera: I took Lel out to see the first one we bought. It was a beautiful, little house, spiral stair, big -- opening -- Ray L' ; Dera: Oval. Gordie L' ; Dera: Oval. Yeah and little niches which had statuettes in them and so on. The whole place was gorgeous. Anyway, the woman - people who bought the house, the wife died and so I take Lel out there and we' ; re walking over to and we' ; re standing- standing in front of the house, looking at it and out comes this woman who died, the same woman, it looked like. And she says, " ; Are you the L' ; Dera' ; s?" ; I said, " ; Yes." ; She says, " ; Oh, my husband told me so much about you. You want to see what we did with it?" ; I said, " ; Absolutely, I want to see what you did with it!" ; And in we went, and they- they put it back to where it should have been. But he married a woman who looked just like the one that he was married to before. I mean pretty much like 20 years later I couldn' ; t recognize this woman. She was about the same age as she was before. But we were just, you know and Lel said, " ; You sold it? you sold it? you sold it?" ; " ; Yes. Yes we did. Yes we did." ; That was the prettiest house we' ; ve ever had. That was, you know. Ray L' ; Dera: South Portland was grand. Very Victorian. Gordie L' ; Dera: It was grand. Yeah lots of everything was - what' ; s the word I' ; m looking for? It had - get so much paint off the -- Amy Starecheski: The woodwork. Gordie L' ; Dera: The woodwork, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful woodwork. But, yeah, anyway. Amy Starecheski: The person who sold it to you, why were they selling it, do you know? Gordie L' ; Dera: Why were they- Oh yes we do. And that too is a story. Initially, there was a Hispanic family here. And the guy was so proud of this house -the house, the boiler guy, he used to tell us he used to wax the boiler, he' ; d scrub it down and he' ; d wax it. And his son got caught in a drug shooting up in the Bronx and was killed. And he just closed down and sold the house. And he sold it to two gay guys. And the closing was hysterical. I mean they had a big swimming pool that almost covered the whole backyard. And they were a little, you know, a little beyond the pale. And the one who was the swishiest had just - his wife had just had a baby and they argued. I mean he was trying very hard to get through this without the other guy and the other guy was being so mean to him that we' ; re all sitting there, we don' ; t know what to say. And the one who remained gay is going on and on and on about, " ; My boyfriend has a baby" ; and this poor guy' ; s the color of your shirt, he' ; s sitting there bright, fiery red, he doesn' ; t know what to do. And this went on all the way through the closing, everything this guy had to say was, " ; He doesn' ; t know who he is. Well he' ; ll be sorry." ; And it' ; s just, Oh my God, this is awful. I mean that poor guy. But there we were. And that' ; s how the house closed. One people - one person was very happy to get out of it and the other one was very annoyed to get out of it. So. Amy Starecheski: Were they white? Gordie L' ; Dera: White. Both. Yes. Yes. Ray L' ; Dera: Remind me when we come back, I don' ; t know where I stuck it, but we have two pictures that were still in the house when we came here, that I kept because they' ; re part of the house. One of them was a magic marker type of drawing of Spanish (indiscernible) like this. And the other is a teenage Spanish girl, big skirt, like this. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah a cartoon, a cartoon. Ray L' ; Dera: At the bottom is, " ; Kiss me!" ; Gordie L' ; Dera: Okay, but wasn' ; t the- the photograph of the boys? Ray L' ; Dera: That' ; s - the photograph of the boys, we also saved that. I don' ; t know where I stuck it to keep it, to keep them. Amy Starecheski: Oh, okay. Yeah, let me see it. Ray L' ; Dera: The boys apparently - the son of the Spanish guy, who had the house before the gay guys, apparently the boys had a club- clubhouse in the basement, okay? And we have one picture, photograph, of them all hanging around, looking tough and teenager tough. Gordie L' ; Dera: Cute, too. We don' ; t know which one was the son. Ray L' ; Dera: Again, up on the corner, drive by, and he was killed, one of them was killed, I don' ; t know which of the boys. But we kept that picture as well and we need to find it. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. We need to pull those out and put them up. We need to pull those out and put them up. We had them. They were in - Ray L' ; Dera: I just don' ; t remember where I stuck them. Amy Starecheski: On the second floor. Gordie L' ; Dera: Yeah. In -in the little girl' ; s room. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. All right well, I know you guys are like leaving in a day. Gordie L' ; Dera: A day, and, you' ; ve spent most of your day, too, you know? It' ; s 12:30 already. We like to-- Amy Starecheski: Alright, I' ; m going to turn it off, is there anything -- else? Gordie L' ; Dera: We like to talk. No. Amy Starecheski: Okay. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=LDera_20171110.xml LDera_20171110.xml
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Title
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Ray and Gordie L'Dera Oral History Interview
Date
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2017-11-10
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audio
Subject
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Ray and Gordona (Gordie) L’Dera are a married couple who were interviewed together. Ray L’Dera was born in 1937 Wytheville, Virginia and grew up moving around a lot within the Appalachian region – his father was an Alsatian ex-pat who has been a spy in World War I. He gave up a career on Wall Street to be an actor. Gordie L’Dera was born in 1939 grew up in Pennsylvania, and came to New York City to attend the American Academy of Dramatic Arts and then worked as an actor and also a receptionist on Wall Street. Ray and Gordie met through theater, married quickly, and became involved in New York City housing politics in the mid-60s after they bought a house on State Street in Boerum Hill, which they then sold to buy two houses on South Portland in Fort Greene, while Ray worked as a real-estate agent. They were involved in the early brownstoners’ movement in Brooklyn, including the Brownstone Revival Committee, where they worked to organize across racial divides and support an integrated community. They moved to rural Pennsylvania for ten years to raise their two daughters, and returned to find themselves priced out of Brooklyn. They rented in East Harlem, in the 1980s where they were involved with tenant organizing via the Committee to Save East Harlem. Again pushed out by gentrification, in 1991 they bought a four unit tenement in Mott Haven, where they continue to live today. Building on work begun in Pennsylvania, they created Art Group, an integrated community theater company that that moved between Mott Haven and other parts of the city, active for three decades. They both continue to act as members of the Screen Actors’ Guild. Through owning a four-unit building in Mott Haven for almost three decades they have provided affordable housing to several families (including interviewer Amy Starecheski’s, since 2001) as well as stability and economic mobility for their own family, including their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, radically changing many lives.
Description
An account of the resource
Gordie and Ray L’Dera are a married couple in their 80’s at the time of the interview. They discuss their own childhoods and moving to New York City as young adults, raising a child in the city, and working with youth as theater teachers. Particular detail is also given to the grassroots community organizing against police violence and gentrification and how that has changed over time. They also discuss race relations in their neighborhood over time and its impact on gentrification.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Maximino Rivera
OHMS Object
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Rivera_20180320.xml
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5.4 March 20, 2018 Rivera_20180320 3:14:40 Columbia Oral History MA Program Maximino Rivera Amy Starecheski Rivera_Maximino_20180320 1:|11(6)|19(14)|26(14)|38(10)|49(12)|63(9)|79(1)|88(14)|98(16)|113(1)|126(13)|138(7)|149(6)|159(6)|167(15)|175(11)|186(12)|198(1)|207(1)|215(5)|226(5)|236(15)|245(13)|256(7)|265(1)|276(4)|284(11)|295(12)|305(4)|318(5)|331(2)|341(14)|352(2)|364(6)|374(2)|383(15)|395(8)|406(13)|419(1)|425(11)|434(9)|444(10)|456(6)|467(16)|479(4)|492(7)|504(4)|518(11)|532(7)|551(4)|567(7)|576(8)|596(3)|607(8)|624(9)|639(12)|650(10)|666(8)|675(14)|696(2)|708(3)|718(9)|732(3)|743(4)|757(1)|767(12)|780(9)|787(11)|800(3)|810(8)|822(9)|832(2)|843(2)|860(15)|872(11)|887(3)|899(3)|908(11)|916(12)|928(5)|942(11)|949(11)|964(13)|974(3)|992(10)|1007(6)|1018(7)|1044(4)|1059(2)|1069(4)|1082(12)|1094(9)|1107(6)|1121(5)|1134(11)|1149(6)|1165(3)|1177(8)|1188(13)|1207(8)|1220(2)|1235(2)|1248(13)|1260(4)|1272(9)|1285(7)|1297(5)|1311(3)|1322(14)|1338(9)|1350(8)|1366(14)|1381(4)|1399(13)|1410(12)|1422(14)|1444(6)|1457(1)|1467(11)|1481(7)|1500(10)|1516(2)|1529(12)|1540(6)|1554(10)|1566(7)|1576(9)|1585(5)|1599(1)|1619(10)|1633(1)|1643(1)|1657(16)|1669(15)|1680(6)|1691(12)|1703(12)|1716(4)|1729(4)|1746(4)|1764(5)|1782(1)|1804(4)|1815(13)|1837(9)|1855(14)|1868(13)|1884(7)|1894(12)|1906(17)|1919(3)|1931(1)|1940(8)|1959(3)|1976(16)|1993(6)|2002(10)|2016(4)|2031(8)|2044(6)|2055(1)|2068(3)|2080(8)|2090(9)|2101(8)|2113(2)|2123(10)|2139(11)|2152(11)|2162(4)|2174(1)|2185(17)|2199(1)|2213(6)|2227(14)|2239(4)|2250(4)|2264(9)|2278(5)|2292(3)|2303(12)|2318(1)|2330(9)|2344(6)|2355(5)|2375(11)|2388(4)|2401(7)|2419(13)|2441(11)|2456(13)|2468(2)|2479(10)|2493(13) 0 https://soundcloud.com/oralhistory_columbia/rivera_maximino_20180320/s-XWRS3 SoundCloud OHMA.Columbia audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/574493400& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; Engish 0 Introductions Amy does general introductions, interview taking place on March 20th 2018 in Maxi's apartment on 157th and Melrose. Maximino Rivera (Maxi) born in Puerto Rico in 1950 in a town on the South side of the island. Lives in Puerto Rico until he is 13. 72 Father 9 brothers and sisters, united family. Father was a sugar cane cutter, very strict but responsible. Made Maxi the person he is today, even though he thought he was mean when he was growing up. 135 Moving to New York/ Childhood Moved to New York July 6th 1963. Lived on E141st between Willis and Brook. Had a great childhood, but it wasn't easy. Moving from a small place where everyone knew each other, responsibility for each other's actions. In New York however, it was a different experience. Used to cry in the summer time when he saw children playing from his window in New York because he missed Puerto Rico. Missed being free around nature with smaller houses. Culture shock, people used to call them hicks - nowadays people take pride in that, but back then it was fighting talk. 290 Sport brought people together Playing baseball, making planes, brought them closer to their neighbors 324 Early work in Grocery store/shoe shining Respect other people was important in upbringing. Started in a grocery store at 14, but before that worked as a shoe shiner. Used to take shoe shining box down Willis - lots of people doing it. Got $8 a week in the grocery store - did deliveries up 3 or 4 flights of stairs, no elevator. Would cash in glass bottles that customers would give him - made $15/20 which was a lot of money. 421 " ; Dressing to Kill" ; - Graduating High School and 1969 Dressing well very important to Puerto Rican community in the 60s - playboy shoes, suits. Part time shining shoes, while at Clark Junior High School. Graduated from high school in 1969 - a lot of his friends had already dropped out. Finished school at the end of June, middle of July was drafted for Vietnam War, none of his friends from high school got drafted. Joined Marines, was 19 years old. Last of the people to get drafted in the pool. 561 Early days in the Marines While in South Carolina for training, went to town and he and a group were leaving at 2am to get transport to get to military base and an altercation occurred. Didn't go back to town in South Carolina when on leave, came back to the Bronx. Would have parties. Would write to friends who were posted in Guantanamo and Bieke (?) 769 Opinion changing on Vietnam War/Explosion in the Convoy Changed his mind on Vietnam because of discrimination, corruption and racism. Wasn't bothered by monsoon weather. Having come from a family with that had love and respect for each other. Saw women being mistreated in Vietnam. Assumption that two men walking hand in hand were gay. Differences in treatment between officers and standard soldiers. Fighting two wars. Convoy on the day before Thanksgiving - taking food and ammunition. Sandbags on the front of the trucks to offset the effects of hitting a mine. Maxi in the truck behind (a gun truck), partnered with a guy from Maine. Explosion in truck in front, the pace truck that was 150/200m ahead. Everyone was smoking pot to cope. One man was killed, the other went to hospital. At 19/20 years old being away from family at Thanksgiving. Major was unsympathetic. Came to fight communism but didn't really know what that meant, brainwashed. 1251 Becoming a Militant Joined Mao Mao underground organization, knew America were going to lose the war, soldiers weren't happy, boat home took 26 days, felt like Christopher Columbus when he saw land, received to see the cliffs of San Diego, when he got home it was 2 days before his 21st birthday, had never been to California before. Night before Maxi was discharged there was a race riot, told friend to stay away - same with Vietnam with a lot of in fighting. 1487 Coming home from Vietnam Family came to airport to pick him up, took a cab home from the airport, emotional coming home. Met two sisters, mother was waiting inside close to death. Mother was so happy he was alive, but sad at how skinny he looked. His clothes were out of style, had been cut up for rags. His cousin had gotten back 6 months before, told him the family didn't understand what they had been through. The person that used to " ; dress to kill" ; didn't have the desire anyone. 1707 Coming from a unique family Big family, mum's brother and sister married father's sister and brother, everyone in the family had 8-10 kids, had a quick temper after the war, 1971 got involved with Puerto Rican groups to get the marines out of Bieke without social media, from there became involved with the Puerto Rican Socialist Party, became a communist/socialist. Stopped going to church. Loves his family, never abandoned him. War doesn't finish when you come back, war like a VCR tape - constantly rewinding and you relive it again. 1901 Social Justice and Housing Organizing Social justice, along with family, got him here today. Daughter and him were living in an apartment when she was 1 month old, he was working as an assistant manager, banging on the door by city Marshall. Dispossessed without warning. became involved with housing in 1977 after that experience. will never stop organizing. city taking over a lot of buildings, started organizing to protest. Union of city tenants. Organizing so buildings can become under tenant control in the 1980s. " ; Don't move, improve" ; in the 1990s. J-51, tax abatement for landlords, capital improvement (low interest loan from the city, do cosmetic repairs on the building) and would then put the rent up 50%. Displacing residents. 2480 Puerto Rican representation in Albany Was hard to challenge unfair housing legislation as there wasn't a lot of Puerto Rican representation in Albany. One Puerto Rican in the Senate, a few in the Assembly. Senate was controlled by Republicans, very hard to change laws because they were land orientated. Bronx Community Clergy Coalition - middle class, a lot more money, more organized. Learned a lot from working for them. Community investment. During the 80s/90s a lot of people organized. 2591 Sacrifices with organizing Sad because there isn't a strong community base to continue organizing. In the 70s, the was action. in the 80s, there was apathy to things being taken away that had been fought for in the 70s. In the 90s they were taking everything, and there weren't many of the people from the 70s around to stop it. Lot of people respect Maxi because he never left. Always sacrifices with organizing - family, soul because you're getting involved emotionally with peoples live and problems. 2679 Organizing to save the building on 145th Stayed in housing activism " ; until the end" ; , took over an organization that was founded by Bishop Roberto Gonzalez (from Puerto Rico) from St. Pius. Brought him back to his family. One night there was banging at his door, feared something had happened to his parents, his sister came to get him because they needed him to fight back against the planning board who were trying to take their building on 145th. Planners wanted to demolish. He felt proud and humbled that people came for him. St Pius was a place people organized in. Maxi suggested getting a group of people to go to HPT and talk to the commissioner. Enemy, Ramon Valaz - left vs right, Puerto Rican vs Puerto Rican. Meets Sobeida Cruz - an old friend who Maxi grew up with - encourages him to become more politically inclined and involved with " ; the democratic machine" ; . she was the district manager 2999 The Committee School Board Bobby Crespo's tenure as district manager, was also on committee school board with Maxi. Area had a big problem with homelessness - plan was to build shelters in the community but because of the private houses the people in the church were against it. Fighting to renew superintendent's contract (Goergie Rodriguez) - Bobby against it. 4-4 split. Over the last 40 years, there have been 2 chairmen of the CSB. 3290 Juvenile Detention Center and de-funding of Pueblo en Marcha Maxi ran for the CSB for 3 years, after that decided not to go for re-election. Took over the committee that nobody wanted. - trying to stop the building of a juvenile detention center on 149th. Maxi ended up leaving the school board. Joe Serrano became the congressman, David Rosado became the assemblyman. Less about making decisions, more about popularity. Came back to the school board - David Rosado talking about building at the church, one Maxi's dead body. But it's a done deal. Managed to get it overturned with the help of a connection in the CDS. Because of that they were able to get some money for Pueblo en Marcha to do housing organizing. Awarded $100,000. All was well until commissioner planned to cut Pueblo en Marcha completely - to avoid having to cut other agencies by 10%. Public hearing in Lincoln Hospital - Maxi gives a speech and a resolution is passed so that both parties can work together so Pueblo en Marcha can get funding. 4018 Democratic Machine in The Bronx - Valentin VS Velez Democratic machine stronger in The Bronx because of dynasty. Maxi doesn't see himself as a politician - used to read in the papers about hunger strikers fighting for the Puerto Rican community. Everyone was involved in " ; the old Spanish takeover" ; Marching up 261st, the same man who had been hunger striking - Gerena Valentin - took Maxi's hand during the march. Stopped traffic on 149th. Maxi told Valentin how much he admired him, they became friends. Valentin was a socialist, was hunger striking because he wasn't politically savvy, but could speak several foreign languages. Ramon Velez was also educated. Velez and Valentin ran against each other for city council. Eventually erupts into a full on fight - two people are killed. Valentin ends up wining the election - but they make his life miserable as a councilman. Couldn't get funding, when it came time for re-election he was ganged up on and Valentin lost by 3 votes. 4612 Jose Rivera and the " ; dynasty" ; of the Democratic machine Assemblyman José Rivera becomes chairman in 1982.- he was part of the machine, but still a nice guy. When Rivera runs, he gets attacked but progressives like Maxi stood with him. Maxi thought that Rivera would open the door for other progressives to get into the political scene - didn't happen. Rivera ended up just being like the rest of them - his son and daughter ended up working in politics. Maxi still respected Rivera for the work that he did with Puerto Rican prisoners - but fundamentally, Rivera was " ; regular." ; Maxi blames Rivera for opening the door to the people who are now in power, who are corrupt in Maxi's eyes. The machine is stronger because they've got more bases. Tells the story of Carmen Arroyo trying to take seniors to vote in an absentee ballot after the deadline, which is illegal. Went to court downtown, but lawyers are expensive. Maxi gets free legal because he has a lot of friends who are lawyers. Ballot gets re-done, Maxi loses by 300 votes. Maxi files a federal suit - opposition gets fined. Doesn't blame Carmen Arroyo - she came from Puerto Rico with 6/7 children, lived on welfare and started organizing from there. 5551 Political Culture in the South Bronx - Mott Haven VS Melrose VS Hunts Point Grassroots in the South Bronx and Hunts Point is much stronger than Melrose - beautiful areas so people are less inclined to organize. Maxi used to work for as a chairman for 14 years in an organization that managed buildings. Opened the buildings and organized the tenants - spoke with them about the importance of having a tenants organization and a youth organization. Kids joined a baseball team so they can take pride in the area. Homeowners are money hungry, especially as houses in the area are going up in price. Mott Haven has more progressive people moving in and fighting for the community. 5809 Political Culture of Mott Haven in 1980s/90s. 80s and 90s was still about trying to save what " ; little things we had" ; . People reluctant to get involved, everything controlled by the machine. Compared to now when there is more consciousness. In the 90s there was resistance to things been taken away, compared to 70s when people were demanding to keep things. Bronx people don't fight, but thats changing. More young people getting involved now. Not depending on money from the city. Maxi worried about losing the mom and pop stores on Tell Avenue. There's deli's, but no grocery stores and no history. Maxi's old school Clark JHS 149, is no longer called Clark. Irony that they closed the vocational school when there was demand for vocational jobs. Movement towards charter schools. 6233 Organizing in 2011 In 2011, homeowners on 144 across from where Maxi ned to live came to find him. There was a plan to build 60 apartments for young people with mental health problems on an empty lot. Why can't you just take it somewhere else, another community? We're saturated. Have a meeting, organize. Get told the decision comes from the State. State claims they consulted community groups - state lied to try and get the building put up. 6659 Parents explaining decision to move to The Bronx Not a lot of jobs in Puerto Rico, so finished high school and didn't have anything next. Maxi is the second youngest of eight. when sister graduated from high school ,she came to America. She sent for older bother, then the older bother came to America. Then they were trying to send for the other brother who finished high school - succeeded so they were all together. Sister got married. Two older bothers got an apartment on 144th - used to live in el Barrio in Manhattan. That was how it happened in that time - families sending for one another was common. Ended up with 8 in the apartment. Then sent for cousin. Everybody was always getting ready, everyone was waiting until they were 18 so they could come to New York. 6808 Preconceptions about New York Maxi tells two funny stories about what he and his friends thought New York was going to be like. Sledding down the hill at St Mary's on a garbage can lid. Playing games, having fun. Fighting, playing ball. Very good bilingual class at high school. Kids are rude, and would make fun of each other. Has fond memories which is why he never wanted to move away from the South Bronx. Briefly moved to Bethel Park and decided to move back to the South Bronx where he's got family, friends and feels at home. Goes to visit daughter in Florida - by the third week he wants to go back to New York. Knows all the faces in the South Bronx. Doesn't care about the crime situation in New York, happy to trade that for freedom. 7239 Importance of clothing Tailor made was very much in fashion. Mr Tony on 125th Street, Maxi worked there for a while. In school people wore alligator shoes, and 'proper colored pants" ; that matched the sweater you were wearing. Suede jackets. Lots of house parties at the weekends - people dressed in ties, jackets and suits. Used to go to Mr Ripleys and buy things second hand. Went to Vietnam and everything changed - came back and everything he had was out of style. Remembers seeing people in bell bottoms - crazy how much things can change in a year. Remembers going dancing at a club on 149th Street for Puerto Ricans. Used to have a dance from 9pm to 6am called " ; El Desayuno" ; . Maxi could never get in because he always looked too young, after the dance the would go and eat. 7508 Salsa and Gangs in the South Bronx Dressing good goes with the salsa music. Lots of good salsa came our of the South Bronx in Maxi's time. Started closing 144th for a block party - salsa musicians used to practice on the sidewalk. Everyone knew each other - playing dominoes and drinking beer. There was a gang - Gypsie Surfside - that controlled 144th and 145th. The Skinner was an Italian gang on 143rd, and another Puerto Rican gang on 138th and one at 144th near Willis Avenue. Incident between the gangs because a young Puerto Rican woman was raped. Fighting went on for weeks, but there was no guns - people fought with knives and fists. 7852 Buildings being Abandoned Maxi started to notice abandoned buildings in 1971, after he came back from Vietnam. Came to a time that you could walk from 148th Street all the way to 138th before the building started for St James or Brook Park. The only thing that was on 145th Street between Willis and Brook was the church - and there's was one house, everything else was gone. On the north side of 144th, everything was abandoned. Only thing that was left was the private houses. Where the community garden is now used to be a supermarket where Maxi worked before he worked in National Shoes. 7949 Brook Park before it was Brook Park Brook Park used to be a schoolyard and a " ; junkie paradise" ; - thought people were handing out cheese but it was heroin. Police used water cannons on pueblo en Marcha. Lost friends to drug addiction 8056 Puerto Rican Theatre Puerto Rican Theater is a historic building, but elected officials let it go. It's an integral part of the history of the Puerto Ricans in the South Bronx. It was the main place for Puerto Ricans, used to do a Christmas show. Used to watch movies there. ejected officials were supposed to save it, turned it into a church. Place for boxing. - rivalry between the Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans. Boxing match between a Mexican and a Puerto Rican started a riot with Molotov cocktails. 8370 Different nationalities in Mott Haven When Maxi was growing up there were lots of Irish people in Mott Haven, more moved into the projects when they were opened up. Also some Dominican families, but not very many. Only 3 or 5 Dominican student in Maxi's class, rest were Puerto Rican. Only a handful of white kids, Maxi remembers an Italian boy who used to beat him up because he couldn't speak English. 8558 Decision to move from 144th Family moved from 144th when Maxi was in his last year of high School around 1968. Moved to Morris and 168th because some friends were moving back to Puerto Rico, offered their apartment to Maxi's parents. Moved to Morris, in 1974 moved back. Maxi applied to live in the projects - as a veteran. when his parents went back to Puerto Rico he took over their apprtment on 141st and 3rd in Paterson houses . He lived on the 12th floor. Lived in Paterson from 1986. He started working in the post office, then he became involved with Pueblo en Marcha. Became director of the tenants patrol, crack became a big issue. 8985 Brook Park Changing from " ; junkie paradise" ; to garden A lot of work. Brook Park is central to Mott Haven now. It's a place where people come together, a farm in the middle of the South Bronx with chickens. Before they did the park, there used to be a schoolyard with a basketball court. Used to be an issue with older people coming and leaving loads of mess after having cook outs. Lives near Yankee Stadium now, and there's a little league park where the children play - sometimes his windows get broken. Made a homeowners association - Nos Quedamos - to try and make the fence higher. 9315 Rising Rents in Mott Haven Maxi's son lived with his for a while, but they both decided they needed their own space. Maxi's son has a good job, works on bridges and tunnels. 13 years ago the rent on a one-bedroom apartment was $1,100. Maxi suggested he save his rent money and put it toward getting a mortgage. Now a two-bedroom costs about $1,500. Maxi says a lot of people don't trust him because they think he's rich - but he always had good jobs. Argued that a lot of people sacrificed their lives and fought for the houses that people are now renting out to people who aren't from the community and taking housing away from people who need it. 9566 Gentrification in the South Bronx Maxi started to notice gentrification more recently, argues that it started when the state wanted the waterfront in the 90s to build power plants. Pueblo en Marcha called a meeting to bring all the different community organizations together to organize. Maxi didn't know before that that there was a plan to build a power plant - from this, the South Bronx Environmental Coalition was born. Surprised to see businesses and younger people at the waterfront now, thinks maybe he noticed it less because he was never a gentrification organizer but a housing organizer. Manhattan was going to be a " ; fantasy island" ; under Robert Wagner (NYC Mayor) - now its the South Bronx that has the prime real estate. Maxi thinks there will come a time when people want to move back from " ; co-op city" ; . Average income of a family of four in the South Bronx is $21,000 - average cost of living is $33,000 so how are people supposed to survive? 10067 Randall's Island and " ; A Tale of Two Cities" ; Randall's Island became part of the gentrification conversation. Maxi used to go at the weekends with his father and brother to play softball, never to Central Park. Came back in the 2000s and saw the island was being rented out to a private school - residents demanded a bridge to the island. Maxi reiterates that in the 70s they fought, in the 80s they fought a little, and in the 90s they were begging the government not to take their stuff away. New Randals island " ; not for us" ; - buildings are being repaired after being abandoned for years. Maxi doesn't mind young people from SoHo/artists etc moving to the area as long as they don't gentrify and integrate into the community. No " ; tale of two cities" ; . Read Charles Dickens when he was in high school but only hit him when he was running for office. 10324 Family Life Met his first wife while he was an assistant manager at National Shoes - she didn't like his political work. His second wife he met at high school - now lives in Florida with her son, they are still good friends and she has since remarried and become Catholic. Feels that if he moved to Florida he would die. Maxi says she saved his life - after he and his first wife split up he was homeless sleeping in the park behind the new Yankee Stadium.His mum knew he wasn't doing good, he would lie and say that he had stayed at a woman's house. His second wife thought he was Christian when they met because he was humble and quiet, she took him out for coffee and thats how they met. Is close with his stepson, who he calls his son because he raised him since he was 7. 11122 Looking out for each other Marching for legal aid, police attack and killed a man named Lebrón. Marched with arms linked together - just one of the examples of people coming together in the South Bronx. Talks about Tony, an elevator mechanic who ran a shelter. Swam laps to raise money to have St Jerome's roof repaired - made more than $10,000. When Pueblo en Marcha was defunded, they received an anonymous donation of $5,000. People in the South Bronx look out for each other. Q: This is Amy Starecheski. I' ; m interviewing Maxi Rivera. And today is March 20, 2018. We' ; re in his apartment, his house, on 157th Street in Melrose. And like I said, if it' ; s OK with you, I' ; d like to start at the beginning. So can you say your name and tell me where and when you were born, and a little bit about your early life, your childhood, your family? Say anything you want, and I' ; ll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck. But I' ; m eager to hear. RIVERA: OK. My name is Maximino Rivera. People know me throughout my life by Maxi. I was born in el barrio Puente de Jobo, pueblo de Guayama, Puerto Rico. That' ; s in the south side of the island of Puerto Rico. I was born in 1950. I lived in Puerto Rico until 1963. I was 13 years old when my family, my parents relocate to New York. I' ; m from a family of nine. We are nine brothers and sister, a very united family. My father was a sugarcane cutter, but very strict and responsible person. The person that I am today-- I owe it to him, if it wasn' ; t because of him, I wouldn' ; t be right here now, wouldn' ; t be the person that I am now, even though when I was growing up, I didn' ; t understand. I think he was very mean, or he was doing the right thing. He showed us some value. And I took those value with me throughout my life. When we moved to New York in 1963, it was, I think, July 6, 1963. We came to live in 144th Street, 457 East-- 144th Street between Willis and Brook. If I tell you about my youth, I had a great youth, even though it was not easy when you are a teenager moving from a place that small-- everybody knew each other, everybody-- it was people' ; s responsibility to help raise all the kids. If you see somebody doing something wrong, they will stop you, or they will go to your father and take it to your father, your mother right away. Now, coming to New York, it was a very big experience. I remember going to the window and looking in the street, seeing the kids playing. It was a summer time, and I used to cry because I missed my Puerto Rico. I missed being free, roaming wherever. I want to go to a lake. I want to go a brook. I want to go to fishing or whatever I want to do. We were free. Then over here, all of a sudden, we were in an apartment building. I never saw an apartment building in my life. There were small houses. Now, dealing with the culture-- I remember my brother and I-- my brother, Junior, rest in peace. He was two years older than me, so we were always very together-- they used to call us jibaro. Oh, the jibaro. Oh, jibaro, hick-- jibaro, the people that work in the sugarcane in Puerto Rico. They come from the country. They didn' ; t have no intelligence, according to those days. Now, you call a person jibaro, a Puerto Rican, a jibaro, he say, I' ; m proud to be a jibaro But those days, it was fighting words. And my brother and I-- I was 13 ; he was 15-- we used to fight. We used to fight. They used to call-- but going back, we were talking before about music probably, culture bringing people together-- sport. Many of these kids, you know, [SPANISH]. But we were good playing baseball. So when they saw my brother making those play and running and hitting. Me, I wasn' ; t that great. I wasn' ; t that good. But if my brother-- if I didn' ; t play, my brother didn' ; t play. So he was like always like-- so that brought us more together with the people. And then the other thing was the way I was raised and talking about older people, the-- our culture, the way we were teached to respect other people and treat them with respect, all that, a lot of people liked us. And with Spanish was-- So I started working in the grocery store. I was 14 years old. No, before that, I took a shoeshine box. I told my sister-- she' ; s younger. She was around 11 years old. And she used to carry that shoeshine box and used to walk down Willis Avenue to 149th and Third Avenue. And there were a lot of people lined up shining shoes. And people used to come here to get their shoes shined. So I started doing shoeshine. I always liked trying to make a dollar. From there, I started working the super-- in the grocery store. And I was getting like $10, $8 a week. And then, I used to-- they used to-- a lot of customers, they used to buy groceries, so I used to make deliveries. Then, there was no elevator. Forget it. There was elevator. I used to go five flights, four flights up, and they used to give me bottles. Those days, they had the big Coke, Pepsi Cola bottle and the smaller-- they used to charge $5-- $0.05 for the big Pepsi Cola. And the little one was like $0.03. And they used to give boxes of bottles. I used to go into a store and cash it. I used to make like $15, $20. That was good money. And I used to buy clothes for me, for my brother. Because us Puerto Ricans-- and during the ' ; 60s, dress was like-- dressing, we were used to dressed to kill. It was those-- I that was the era of dressing. People used to charm with suits, playboy shoes. And we used to go dancing. And after that, I started working National Shoes part-time. I was going to DeWitt Clinton High School. I was working National Shoes. 1969, I graduated from high school. Lot of my friends that we went to school together from 144th, and went to Clark Jr. High School to DeWitt Clinton, they dropped out of school. But guess what? None of them got drafted. Finish school June, the end of June. By the middle of July, I received a letter to go to Whitehall, at that time, it was Whitehall downtown, by South Ferry to an endorsement center to take a physical. When I got the physical, had the physical, we' ; re later getting calls from the Marines, from the Navy, the Air Force. Oh, you know, I was going to the Army anyway. You join. Then, I got the letter with the token, one-way token to go report. So I joined the Marines. I say if I' ; m going to go to war-- I was 19 years old. And I know I was going to go to Vietnam. I was the last of the people who got drafted with the mandatory in the pool. I was one of the last ones, with my luck, so that' ; s how I ended up in the Marines. I said, I' ; m going with the Marines, because they' ; re the best fighting according to the propaganda. And then, the uniforms looked good. And the ladies, they liked that uniform. So I went to the Marines. They were fine. I saw the south and then started experimenting with South Carolina. I remember one day we went out-- the only time they went out to town, we went to town, a group of us-- Mexican, Puerto Rican, black, you know. And we were coming out about 2 o' ; clock in the morning. We were walking to get transportation to get to the base. [SQUEALS] Cops coming, took all the Mexicans. And then, they [INAUDIBLE] I don' ; t know why they didn' ; t took me. And they were saying, We weren' ; t doing nothing. We were drinking like everybody else, all Marines, they would go to drink. That' ; s how they go party. And they took them for intoxicated in public and this shit. And then, there was a guy that used to-- in our company-- white guy-- he used to live off base. He used to take us. And he used to say, yeah, I' ; m going to take you for a ride so you can see, right? He used to have a .38 gun and put in the windshield. I said, what the fuck is that for? Oh, no, here in the south, you know, guns, you know, you' ; ve got the right to have gun. And it' ; s to protect yourself. And, what the hell? I was young. I never thought-- then we, years out, you know. So I never went back to town. I used to come here every weekend. There used to be car, people-- used to come to 42nd. People used to have car, come to New York on the weekend. So you used to pay $10 and get over here. And then one day, we were drinking. We were having fun. There were three of us. And we were a lot of friends, Puerto Rican friends. One came-- two of them came from Puerto Rico, directly from Puerto Rico to the Marines, came from the Bronx. I remember that night, we were having party. When I got to my-- to where I live, to the barracks-- when I got to the barracks, a lot of people were awake. They had all kind of orders. They said, Rivera, take a look. You' ; re my guy. You might be shipped out. I said where at? They said, westpa. Westpa means overseas. Westpa order get in. When I looked, there you go. Reporting to California, California-Okinawa, Okinawa-Vietnam. I said, wow. My other friend is-- one went to Guantanamo, and the other one went to Vieques. And I went to Vietnam. And we used to write-- I never saw them. We used to write-- when I was in Vietnam, we used to write. But I never got to see them back when came back to the States. And I said the best thing that happened to me was that I was sent to Vietnam, because if I would have sent to Vieques, I would' ; ve been jailed or-- I would have been in jail or dead. Because the Marines-- that' ; s why I changed my mind in Vietnam-- get drunk and they' ; re stupid. What changed my view in Vietnam was the discrimination, the corruption. It was not the fight with North Vietnam, fighting the Vietnamese or living under the monsoon for three months, under the water, or living under the heat conditions-- 100, 120 degrees almost every day. That didn' ; t bother me. What really changed was the corruption and the racist that was taking place. Like I said, I came from a family that taught value, culture, respect, love for other people. And what I saw in Vietnam, it was like woman, the Vietnamese woman, the kids, they were like-- woman, they were like prostitute for-- they look at it-- they didn' ; t look as a human being. They used to go into the villages and tried to abuse. Papasan and babysan, when they used to walk together, they walked hand in-- holding hands. That' ; s love-- grandpa or pop or whatever. For the American, that was gay, two gay people. Oh, mira, two men holding hands. It was trauma. And then the other aspect-- you' ; re young. We were all young, 19. Our hormone was high, 19. Now, if we would get caught with a Vietnamese woman, we would get busted. But inside the base in the compound, what we called the lifers, the one that was staff and CO, E-6 and above, and the officer, they had their own club. They used to bring Vietnamese girl to clean their hooches, wash their clothes, and they seemed to have sex. Oh yeah. And they get away with it, but we get caught-- The other thing was, in the Marines, you had to be an E-6 a staff sergeant or above, to be able to buy liquor or rum. Shit, us Puerto Ricans, we like to drink rum, and we couldn' ; t buy it. We were underage. And not even the age, because we were not at E-6. But we were good to fight the damn war. Army, they didn' ; t give a shit. In the Army, so you were 21, you buy your liquor. So all of this then -- We used to a fight the North Vietnamese and the lifers. We' ; re fighting two wars. It got to the point where we couldn' ; t take it. And I' ; m talking about Hispanics. I' ; m talking about white, every-- you know, people that were conscious-- We didn' ; t have accept what was going on. One day, we went-- and I never forgot-- we went and that' ; s when my life, I took a melatin from it. It was the day before Thanksgiving. We were in a convoy. I was a truck driver of machine-- a 50 machine-gunner. And we used to go in convoys. Oops, sorry [mic noise]. We used to get a convoy different places, different-- from all over the south taking, food, ammunition up. One day, we went on the pace truck. The pace truck was the one that goes in the front, like 50 meters, 100 meters in front. And that truck, they put some steel bars, sandbags. They prepare real heavy just in case they hit a mine, the impact wouldn' ; t be that big. The second truck, our truck, was the gun truck with a radio. I used to always be the machine gunner and the radio. I used to have a friend of mine who was from Maine-- Fonyuman, I forgot his name-- and we used to always be partners all the time. He was half-French, Fonyumin. I' ; ll never forget. So that day, when we-- boom! Oh my god. Waiting one-- one day, something was gonna happen, but we never-- we were high, to tell you. Everybody was smoking pot, everybody, because that' ; s the only way we could make it. We were smoking, and that throws his up. [MAKES EXPLOSION NOISE] Oh my god. One guy got killed, and the other guy went to the hospital. The thing is that, Thanksgiving, right? You' ; re away, 19 years, 20 years old-- 20 years-- just 20 years old. You' ; re away from your family in no land. Raining and raining and raining. And when we got back to the base, a major-- never forgot-- Fazulla-- anyway-- Frizel-- Major Frizel. " ; Come on. Marines! Get in formation!" ; And he was starting, " ; If that fucking marine would have had his flak jacket he wouldn' ; t have been dead now." ; And he started-- oh man. We just dispersed. And he say, " ; Come back! Marines, back in forma--" ; [Inaudible], man. Do whatever the fuck you want to do. And from there on, my life changed. This is what I get? I came and joined the Marines and came to fight communists, according to communism was taking over the world. We were so brainwashed in boot camp out of this shit. And this is not what' ; s happening. And from that moment, I say, god, thank you for sending me to Vietnam. If I would have been in Vieques, I would have been dead. Because we' ; re not allowed-- these people get drunk, go into town, and try to abuse my people. Because I' ; m a Puerto Rican, 150% I love my people. I realized from them on, my life changed. I became a militant. I joined an underground organization. They call it the Mao Mao. It' ; s a black organization. And we started fighting the-- not the white, but the lifers. When they used to get drunk and go to sleep, we used to throw in gas grenades. We used to gas them. Stay with the spoon, and throw it in, and we' ; d run. Come to a time they had to put-- they had to put a guard duty around their hooches. I knew they were going to lose the war. I knew the American was for a big kick in the ass in Vietnam, because it was so divided, man. The soldiers, they were not happy. When they got there, they didn' ; t want no part of it, [INAUDIBLE]. That' ; s what changed my whole life. I remember returning-- now, my return, dying to get home, sent me in a ship coming back. It was a RSP 36. And I forget-- I never been in a ship. So what I remind it carried. There was one--a gun ship. That was the one they used to bomb Cambodia in 1968, Khe Sanh, the war. We were there for 26 days. I was like seeing water, every time we had to change the time. We would change, and looking at the water, when I saw those mountains of San Diego-- when I was a kid in Puerto Rico, I came out in a play about Christopher Columbus discover Puerto Rico. I was one of the people that was in the-- in the ship when Christopher Columbus got to Puerto Rico, where he got, and I' ; d say, tierra! Tierra! Land! Land! They were happy to see land. And that was the way I was happy. And I thought this on the boat-- tierra! Tierra! Land! Finally, we saw land. And I was just about two weeks before my 21st birthday. We were there-- they took us to Camp Pendleton. By the mountain, it' ; s beautiful. First time I' ; ve been in California like this. Because I just-- when I went to Vietnam, we just made a stop and went through Cali-- Okinawa. We were there for a week training. You don' ; t know, the riot. The night before I got discharge, there was a big riot inside the base between blacks and white. I told my friend, stay away. We are leaving tomorrow. Don' ; t even get near, bro. But that' ; s how bad their relationship, the race relationship. And that' ; s what happened in Vietnam too, in Vietnam. It was inside fighting, so much infight between the American soldiers. When I got back, I remember going to a plane. Called my family, and they all went to pick me up at the airport. But they didn' ; t know exactly at what time I was coming in, so I took a cab. But when I was in the plane, they served me food, I was like, looking at everybody. It' ; s been a year that I haven' ; t been around people, eating. And it was like, wow. I feel like take the food with my hand, like somebody who never had a fork and a spoon. Anyway, when I got home-- I used to live in 100-- We moved from 144, for about two years, to 160 and Morris. And when I got to Morris, we used to live in a walk-in apartment. Am I right? It was just like that. So the sidewalk-- I got out of the cab, my taxi, there are my cousins, my sisters, and they were all waiting outside. And they grabbed me. [SNIFFLING] I said, where' ; s Mami? Mami was inside. Our apartment was five bedrooms-- three bedrooms, a big apartment, so it was a big hallway. So when I went in, I had to go through the hallway. And at the end was the living room. My mom was waiting for me there. And when she saw me-- never forget-- she was so happy that I was alive. But she was so sad because I looked so skinny. I was like 130 pounds. I was so skinny. But anyway, after I hugged my mom, I asked my sister, where' ; s my clothes? Because I had some bought some clothes tailor-made over there. But when I came back, everything had changed. Those styles when out of business. Playboy-- then there were bell-bottoms, high-heels. Everything had changed. But I told my sister, where' ; s my clothes? And I went like this-- [RIPPING NOISES] And I took my shirt with everything, and I threw it out the window. My cousin got back-- he went to the airport to-- with my father, my other brother to pick me up. They already got back. And he had getting back from Vietnam six months before me. We were-- So when he saw me, he hold me and said, primo, come over here. Relax. They don' ; t understand. They don' ; t understand. I do. And you do. But they don' ; t. So it' ; s going to be very hard to deal in the beginning with this, so take it easy, please. Yeah, because, it was like that. It was like that person that used to dress to kill, he was not longer wish to dress. We used to have family parties. We were from big family. Our family, it' ; s a unique family, because my mom' ; s brother and sister married my father' ; s sister and brother. And there were five marriages like that. So we were Rivera-Cintron, Cintron-Rivera. We were all-- a lot of them live in New York City. We would always be in-- everybody in the family, they had like eight, 10 kids. So that' ; s why, in the south Bronx, years back-- now, everybody' ; s started leaving, though. We' ; re so big family. I find I had to do a march in order to have my family. So I started going, and I stopped because, I started getting into a lot of argument. I didn' ; t like something, I used to jump. I used to-- and then I got involved with the issue of Puerto Rico at Vieque. 1971, I got with the issue of getting the marines out of Vieque. People, they told us that this issue just came the other day. Now, we were fighting heavy in 1971. Some of the people got killed. But the only thing, we don' ; t have no social media. They were controlling the information, the media hora. But I started getting involved. And then I get involved in the Puerto Rico Socialist Party. I became a communist, a socialist. There was something with my family, very Catholic, with churchgoing. I didn' ; t want to go to church no more. I didn' ; t want to hear about religions. So it was. And I love my family. I loved my father, my mother, my brother. I know they give their life for me, and the reason that I am here today is because for them, because they were understanding. And they never abandoned me. Many of my friends, they didn' ; t have that. My friends didn' ; t have that, and they ended up dying in the street, because people don' ; t understand. The war don' ; t finish when you come back. That' ; s the beginning for the rest of your life . When the VCR came out, I used to put that as an example. I say, you know how our mind is that we went to war? Like a VCR. You put the movie, and then you rewind it, and you put it forward. And that' ; s on your mind. Sometimes, one day, it' ; s like rewinding. You live the whole thing again. And I thank God that my family, the family that I had, that they never gave up on me. And I did a lot of nasty shit to them. But they never gave up on me. And the social justice, my fight for their freedom in Puerto Rico and social justice is what got me here today. My daughter-- I was living in an apartment. My daughter was a month old. One day, I was working National Shoes. I was an assistant manager right next to where I used to live. One morning, I heard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. City Marshal. Give me a dispossess. I never received no paper. Yeah, I was fighting them, because we are [INAUDIBLE]. But we are whole, and they were right. So I say, if you don' ; t fix it, you don' ; t fix up, I' ; m not going to pay rent. But I never received no paper. I didn' ; t even know about housing, or back then. I didn' ; t know. Marshal came, and I got evicted, my family. That was right after the, [INAUDIBLE]. Right after, we took over Ostos, I remember-- right after Ostos And that' ; s why the people that were in Osto, they had La Raza Unida. They funded this organization, Ramón Ilsa. And a friend of mine told me about it. Mira, Ramón, the people from Osto, they got and funded this organization on 149. And they' ; re going to be-- they' ; re working with Bronx legal services and housing or all this. And that' ; s why I got involved with housing. That was 1977, around there. And I never stopped. Claro, I never stopped organizing. I went there for La Raza. We did a lot of organizing. There were a lot of [INAUDIBLE] strike from there. I got my first organizing job on an organization called Morris High Neighborhood Improvement Association, which they were all part of, the Northwest Bronx Committee Clergy Coalition. And that' ; s when the blackout came. When the blackout came, it was like, we were right after post-World War II. The area that I was working for the Belen in the Northwest Bronx, for the Belen, that was like a war zone, all of those abandoned buildings. And there was a blackout [INAUDIBLE] the store. He was like, wow. So in there, we started organizing. And we found out that the city was taking over a lot of the buildings. The landlord was not paying their taxes. They used to foreclose. They' ; d collect in rent. So they started taking over this building. So we started organizing. We got some people. We checked some of them in the college protest. We found-- we did a found an organization [INAUDIBLE] the city in rent coalition city-wide. We started organizing in the Bronx. There was a lawsuit. We did a lawsuit with Bronx Legal Services. They used to call it Lauriano versus Catch. This lawsuit was to prevent the city, this tenant-- they were working on building city tenant. They did all the repairs. They did it. City was prepared to give that building back to the landlord. They were like, 10%-- you put 10% of your taxes-- because they didn' ; t want to become landlords-- 10% of your tax, and you take your building back. What the heck is 10% of the taxes you owe? You get that little money, and they just keep sprung the bill and collecting rent made no sense. You get your money back and more. So anyway, so we started fighting. The rest is said. Then, we came out with a organization this to a union. Let' ; s put this, all of this is being tried to put into a union, all of these city tenants. And we founded a union of city tenants. And we did a lot of heavy work. There, in office, in 35th Street-- it was a city-owned building by-- on the other side of Madison Square Garden, by 35th Street-- I think it' ; s 758, something like that, that used to be my union, my union. That' ; s where they' ; ve got their headquarters too. Anyway, so we [INAUDIBLE]. We started organizing. We got-- the community management problem came, which city-- we organize the tenants. We wrote a Tenants Association. They collect their rent. To qualify-- Morris High was the sponsor. They have to pay at least-- 80% of the tenants be paying their rent-- city, they will fix all the apartments, everything-- electrical, plumbing, the apartment-- just beautiful. And then, they will train them to take over the building management and buy the apartment 250. We did that. The building my sister lives, Pueblo en Marcha, the organization for 25 years-- Pueblo en Marcha would sponsor it, in the corner of 145h Street and Wallace, that building is owned by the tenants. Took them about 15 years. My sister, everybody from their church-- they' ; re old in their 80s, 70s, but it took-- and that' ; s all. But anyway, the thing is that we did a lot of building. And then, it started falling into the city, because they want cash to get some programs, which were private management and tenants to take over. But we knew that behind all of that was for the private money for the state, because it was the first choice of the tenant. If tenants don' ; t buy it, then they sell it to the private sector. So they will do anything not for the tenants to learn anything, so they could stay. So after the city tenant, we did a lot, like I say, we organized our building. Our building become tenants-controlled. That was during the ' ; 80s. Go in the ' ; 90s-- you know, we' ; re doing the move, improve. And then, cash-- and your cash came with all-- [INAUDIBLE] all of these people, they come out with this. [SIGHS] I used to call it a-- cash came with a program called J-51, J-51 to get tax abatement to the landlord and tax credit for 15 years, low-interest loan to fix the building. Provide section 84 for some of the tenants. Then, we were working on-- then came out with capital improvement. There was a catch. Capital improvement-- lender used to go [INAUDIBLE] low-income loan to the city, do some cosmetic repairs to the front door, the mailboxes, in order the [INAUDIBLE] OK. And then, they used to ask 50% rent increase. It was a new way to displace tenants. Everybody-- there was one big lender co-- one of the biggest real estate company lender, Diamond-- I think it was Diamond or Rubenstein, something like that. They stole our building. But they also, they used to own construction company. So they used to get all these loans from the city, do their own construction, and raise all of these tenant' ; s rent. Because what happened-- city, nobody would challenge the entry. And in the beginning, it was hard, because let' ; s put it this way, we didn' ; t have too many. As a matter of fact, in the center, in Albany, we had one Puerto Rican. In the assembly, we didn' ; t have too many. Senate was controlled by Republicans always. Now, it is-- and then, they had those people that do [INAUDIBLE] and they have their own group. But they were in control. So it was be hard to modify this law. And they were land-oriented. So we started fighting. Then, the student, the [INAUDIBLE] Committee Clergy Coalition-- because they were a big organization [INAUDIBLE] formula they organized in a better community than our, people were there, they were middle class. They were more organized in the suburb, because of the lack of education, the lack of information. So it was easy for them. So when I learned a whole lot from them, I worked for the [INAUDIBLE] here. I did reinvestment, on community reinvestment, and on getting the banks to come back. And it was great. So during ' ; 80s ' ; 90s, what was the-- lot of they people, they went to organize, like I said, the housing org-- all of this program, and then came out all of these beautiful houses. But I say, because this borough have key words throughout the year, a good base, community base, strong community base to continue. In the ' ; 70s, this was when we were fighting for everything. There was no stopping. We go 20 degrees. Marconi said, it wouldn' ; t be necessary. But we were doing it. In the ' ; 80s, [SIGHS] they started taking away the little things that we fought. Oh, don' ; t take it away. In the ' ; 90s, they were taking everything away. And where were the people from the ' ; 70s? Then, they disappeared. Only a few of us-- and a lot of people they, with me, would say, Max, we always respect because you never left. I had my family. I grew my family. And that' ; s why I' ; m alone. When I was doing the documentary with a student, they asked me, is there any sacrifice in organizing? Always. Sometimes, you organize, you sacrifice yourself, your family, because you get involved, emotionally involved with people' ; s problem, with people-- and you forget about you. And I am. But I stood all the way to the end. I ran for-- after the Sunday, I took over Pueblo en Marcha. Pueblo en Marcha was an organization that was founded by Bishop Roberto Gonzalez. He' ; s the bishop in San Juan, Puerto Rico. He is a tremendous person. In San Palles, my sister-- I have to tell you this, too, because this is something that for me was very important. It was a turning point. Because it brought me back to my family in time together. I live my family, my daughter, my wife, we listen-- I listen to music, mucho salsa. It was at the end of the ' ; 70s, 1980s. And then, all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang, knock on door. My wife comes back, opens the door. My sister, people from the church, from San Palles, and I thought something happened to my parents. I say, what happened? No, no, no, no, no. Because we need your help. We need you. We need-- we' ; re coming to get you. We need you. I said, what? You need me? Yes. We have a building blah, blah, blah. The planning board, the political, Ramón Vélez, all of these people, they want a building on 145th. They couldn' ; t get it. Fine, they controlled the planning board. They had the political. They were going to demolish the building. They came, they put those wood and that, you know? And they put around the building. So they came and said, we need you. How can we put-- you' ; ve been doing this. And I-- I was so happy, because I was so apart from my family and the church in San Palle. And I feel so humble and proud when they came. And I say, guys, we' ; ve got to come with us. Because Father Roberto-- at the time, he was a Father-- Gonzalez is in the church. And I say, OK. We went to San Palles. And they were in there. They were having a meeting planning what we' ; re gonna do. I say, well, Father, we' ; ve got the parochial school. Can we get the kids out of the school and we start marching around the building? We let the people get in the-- he says, oh, we cannot use a school like this. No, can we do-- They said, well this is what we' ; re going to do, Max, he asked me. I' ; m going to go with a group of people to HPT to talk to the commissioner. At that time, it was [INAUDIBLE]. And I want you to take a group and go to the planning board, community planning board. Because these people didn' ; t know anything about planning. You know, I know you' ; ve been involved, blah, blah, blah. And I said, OK. That was my enemy, claro, Ramón Vélez, we were fighting. We were the lefty. They were the right. And we were fighting them in here, man, Puerto Rican against Puerto Rican, the left against the right, because they were controlling everything. And if you weren' ; t a part of that, you wouldn' ; t getting nothing in this community. So I said, OK. So we went to planning board. At that time, they were in 381. Go in there-- OK, wait over here. What a surprise. What a surprise. When I' ; m waiting there, I heard a voice say, Maxi, what happened? It was Sobeida Cruz. Sobeida Cruz was a friend of mine, was married to a friend of mine. Grew up together. And we used to go camping. When I came out of Vietnam, ' ; 71-- before I got involved, I used to go camping. We used to go to [INAUDIBLE] New York. Oh, I love camping. We used to go in there right-- [INAUDIBLE] so basically, I didn' ; t know nothing really about planning. [INAUDIBLE] really involved with the structure. I was more in the street and political and now, we didn' ; t vote. We didn' ; t believe in voting. So Sobeida happened to be-- she was a more political inclined, involved with the democratic machine. So she was the district manager. To be the district manager of planning board-- I' ; m talking about probably 1979. Do you know how many district managers the planning board had signed then? Had like one, two? Three. [LAUGHS] The one that there. After, someone [INAUDIBLE] Cruz, the related to-- you know, Puerto Rico, that' ; s what it' ; s like-- Ramo Cruz. And then came this one. Cedric? No, no, no. What came was Bobby Crespo. Bobby Crespo, he was in the committee school board with me. And Bobby Crespo, there was billions of homeless by [INAUDIBLE] in that area. They were going to be so homeless. And the community, the homeowners there-- you know where I used to live by-- over on [INAUDIBLE]. Like on the other side of [INAUDIBLE]. They were planning to build some shelters in the community. There' ; s some private houses in there. There' ; s a lot of shops, but there' ; s a lot of priv-- so the people in the church, they just started complain, blah, blah, blah. When we came on down, planning board, like always, they denying, in doubt. Bobby Crespo getting a lot of support. When they came out, [INAUDIBLE] on this favor came out with a letter, a copy of the letter. And the planning, we didn' ; t know. No support. At that time, [INAUDIBLE] the school board, Bobby Crespo was one member. Carmen Arroyo, before she was the assembly-- anyway, we had two. I was like the swing vote. I went with other people. We have-- I think we have four votes. There was somebody miss- I think there was a person missing. So we will form four. We were fighting to renew the superintendent' ; s contract. Bobby was against it. And some other people, they were aligned with Arroyo, because they want somebody to be truthful to them. And yeah, we were 4-4, came back to the public hearing to vote. And I say, man-- Bobby-- you know Bobby Crystal? No, I don' ; t know him. He' ; s a big guy. He used to be a correctional officer, a tall guy, a big guy, a guy. We were sitting there. You know Jody Rodriguez? Mm-mm. The chairman of the planning board? Mm-mm. In the last 40 years, we' ; ve had two chairmen. We had the incinerator, the one that was Chairman, [INAUDIBLE], we made him resign because the same thing, he gave [INAUDIBLE] letter support to open the incinerator that we fought to close it down. And then, this guy gave letter support which nobody-- he would say nobody knew to the shelter. So when we were on the planning board-- the community school board voting for the superintendent, some Georgie Rodriquez-- Georgie' ; s about 84 or 85 years old. I don' ; t know what Stewart is doing in the planning board. Georgie asked him-- wow. Georgie came. Bobby was sitting here, right. This is our table. But Georgie came. And he stood the whole meeting, standing up behind him. Now, how they control their people, say, I' ; m going to see how you vote. If you vote against it, you' ; re gonna be-- [INAUDIBLE] And when he came, he sang to both. He made his pitch so beautiful, how great Bobby-- the other-- the superintendent. His [INAUDIBLE] was grateful, too. Crespo was the superintendent. This was a guy they were fighting for not to renew his contract. All of a sudden, he was saying some very good thing that he voted for him because Georgie was-- Standing behind him. That' ; s what they do. I get you a job. You don' ; t do what I do, I' ; ll get you funding. You don' ; t do what I will do, what we say. And that' ; s what we mean then with that one. So anyway, going-- right, so-- ay, ay, ay. You were talking about your sister asking you for help and how you hadn' ; t been involved in the planning board type stuff before-- before that. So after that, we got involved in the planning board. I remember one of the-- there was a [INAUDIBLE]. [SPEAKING SPANISH] the juvenile detention center right here. Uh-huh. 1980, it was. I was in a school board. I ranned three years. Then, I decided not to run for re-election. So they come up with [INAUDIBLE] in there. So I took over the committee nobody wanted. So well, I have committee to stop us [INAUDIBLE]. How are you gonna build a-- do you want a detention right in 149th where the tenement commercials run from the park across from the school? But nothing was done. [INAUDIBLE] came. I left the school board. I re-ran for the right. [INAUDIBLE] David Rosado, minding all the same thing, Ramon Ve-- the whole political structure became the assemblies. Serrano-- that' ; s why when Joe Serrano became the congressman, David Rosado became the assemblyman. The guy, when I was running for the school board, they used to say to buy coffee. He was a coffee, and they made him the district leader. Pero he will make no decision. He had too many decision with Ramon Velez there, right? So they-- when Serrano left, They gave him the endorsement. And he got elected. I come back to-- I returned to the school board. Three years after, I come back. I say, hey, I' ; m going to run again. I got elected. Here comes David Rosado talking about they were building already the church. Over my dead body. [GRUMBLING] Man, you were the one respon-- I wouldn' ; t do it. I didn' ; t care. You were responsible. You elected officials of the community let us down. You guys were responsible after your dead bodies. What are you doing [INAUDIBLE] after your dead body? It was already approved. They' ; re building it. He was approved at that time we had the board estimate. It was approved by the planning board, by the city planning, and a board estimate. So it' ; s a done deal. They' ; re building it. So don' ; t go and-- like people don' ; t know. They' ; re not the political savvy or educated was going on. No, you was telling everybody that you were going to fight for it. Oye, right? It was there. Then, I was over fighting. The one time, I had $100,000. After the-- OK. [INAUDIBLE]. We got involved. All those progressive people we went behind Lincoln, lot of elected official, someone then that went with cash. I mean, they took cash for-- we won. So we had a good connection-- a commissioner for committee development agency, a friend of ours. Unfortunately, she was the one, and I feel so bad for having [INAUDIBLE] all my life. She was the one, the lady that was in charge of the-- with the children' ; s services. Ay, ay, ay, what do you call the agency? Children abuse. Oh, the DCS, Department of-- DCS. Yeah. She became the-- she was aligned-- you know when the [INAUDIBLE] and they killed the girl that-- [INAUDIBLE]? Yeah. For Larrys. I knew Gladia Hector-- Hector is a professor-- and her husband, they' ; ve been great. Gladia used to work legal services. Gladia then, it was a fight. And fortunately, she took that position. That position-- you cannot control [INAUDIBLE]. It' ; s always been-- and then they do a whole restructure. Anyway. So Gladia she became the commissioner-- she became the YCD the community development agency. They gived out a grant for a community agency. She became the commissioner. So we were able, at Pueblo en Marcha, to get some money for housing, housing organizing, all that. So there came some crisis, [INAUDIBLE] something. So they had to do budget cut. So the city was asking for every agency to cut 10% of their budget. All right. So she instructed all the areas policy board-- they' ; re the ones that recommended who you get funding to the community development agency. When they do the proposal, they-- they' ; re the ones who select what is the issue that they give the more funding-- housing, youth. Anyway, so when they got the money, I mean they asked for the cut-- community area policy board controlled, again, by the politicians. They control Lincoln Hospital Board and plenty more. Area Policy Board, everything that had to do with money, everything that-- like they had the people in there. You would never get into know all those, even the planning board. Area Policy Board mentioned the commissioner instructed to cut every agency 10% out of the budget. So they met. They come up with a solution. Let' ; s cut Pueblo en Marcha totally, my organization, $100,000. Let' ; s cut Pueblo en Marcha. And we don' ; t have to cut the other organizations. I received a call from the commissioner' ; s office. Maxi, do you know there' ; s going to be a public hearing in Lincoln Hospital? And they had to do it public, because they made a recommendation to cut Pueblo en Marcha totally and cut the other organizations. She knew what was there behind, right? And I just talked to them that they' ; re going to have to have a public hearing and invite every organization and have everybody. So I' ; m giving you a heads-up. Giving you a heads-up. I said OK. So I organized the church. I organized people doing-- they want to. They' ; re coming-- Arroyo with the chairman, all of the people from the sector. They bought it! Took over the floor, and I give a speech about blah, blah, blah, the work that we' ; re doing [INAUDIBLE]. Anyway, they passed a resolution that they were going to work together to get us some funding. Well, they figured that maybe they' ; d forget about us. And we say, no. So my source in downtown told me, sue me. I recall-- I forgot what-- Article 17, the administrative procedure-- they didn' ; t go through the administrative procedure, blah, blah. So I went to my friend, [INAUDIBLE] an attorney with-- and he did Article 16. But we never got into the court, because she instructed, commissioner, 10% everybody. So now, they want Pueblo en Marcha out. So they couldn' ; t do it. David Rosado become the city council. City council calls-- controls the funding. Area Policy Board, the city council who the organization that wants it, he goes, and this is what we' ; re going to do. And they do it. David Rosado becomes city council, open for proposal. Funding comes. Pueblo en Marcha zero funding from the $110,000. Hmm. But we never closed, see? The money used to get paid, Pueblo en Marcha put it back to pay somebody. I work in the post office. Money is never-- as long as I got my books, I got my music, I don' ; t need nothing else. You know, I got my apartment. At night, I want to get high level. I' ; m not into it, none of that. So for me, people say, oh, you must be making a lot of money, huh? You [INAUDIBLE]? I says, so what? I don' ; t do that for one. I' ; m doing it for you know. It' ; s under-- so we never closed. One day, oh, we were fighting the rent control, the rent station law. Volunteer. No, I was getting $20,000 from the board president. It was silent. Because that money was given to when the priest, the bishop. He said they used to give Pueblo en Marcha, when I took over the club. I told the Bishop, no. I want to run Pueblo en Marcha because working in the post office doesn' ; t satisfy me. And I had to something. That' ; s why I took over Puebla. He says, I' ; m gonna call Serrano. He was the assemblyman at the time. So he could call Simon with the board president, because he used to allocate $20,000. And they gave it to him. With that $20,000, I have one person to mind. And then everybody-- when we were organizing for to go to Albany at that time already, the person who used to be an assembly became a councilman, right? He became a senator. I never did this. This is immoral. This guys is immoral. Assemblyman, councilman, is a senator. David Rosado, remember that name. That building over there, that building right next to the garden, they named it after him. I can' ; t believe it. You go, take a look. Do you think that that machine, the democratic machine is stronger in the Bronx than in other parts of New York City? They are much stronger. And I tell you why. Dynasty. Before, I think they' ; re used to running the-- I think they' ; re just behind just the running the machine. But Diaz, Arroyo, they-- I hope they get so. I can' ; t tell. That' ; s another story. I' ; m not a politician, but I' ; m gonna tell you why I did it. Diaz to the churches say-- they were very smart. Ramon Velez, the Father all this, for the godfather [INAUDIBLE] Serrano, Arroyo, the godfather of these politicians made a strong base who were meant to service. What was the standard housing? A lot of programs. And he used to-- he used to hire his people. You have to be loyal to him. Lincoln Hospital, took over Lincoln Hospital [INAUDIBLE] service so many million dollars. Nothing happening here without going to Ramon Velez. And we got him out. In a way, he [INAUDIBLE]. Gerena Valentin-- them two names, like Gerena Valentin, Gilberto Gerena Valentin. When I was a kid, you would never say you, right? My brother always buyed the newspaper, The Diario, Daily News. Mom buys the Daily News, the other one that-- So what if I used to buy The Post? And that was my best because of sport. Now, I hate it. Anyway, The Diario-- I used to read in The Diario this man doing hunger strike, all fighting for the Puerto Rican community. We were on strike demanding this, police. He won the champion in those days, in the area of gang police brutality. It was Gerena Valentin. During the old Spanish takeover, everybody was involved. This was the most-- Gerena, Ramon Velez, Arro-- everybody was involved one-- into one. That' ; s what we' ; d say-- [INAUDIBLE]. That they got to-- the police went in. They then made their arrest and all of that and were watching 261st. But this man next to me, he grabbed my hand. We were marching like this, hand in hand. We closed the whole 149th St. marching. No traffic. We stopped. When I looked, it was Gerena Valentin. And I said, Gerena Valentin. For me, it was like something big. And I said, Gerena, do you know how many years I' ; ve been reading about you, about blah, blah? And he hugged me, and we became friends. Now, Gerena Valentin, again, he was a socialist. He was a-- he was the true founder of the Puerto Rican parade. He was there before Ramon Velez. He was fighting here the people, because he was not political savvy, like Velez. But he could-- oh, in English, Spanish, Gerena Valentin-- when Gerena Valentin to talk, people used to listen, because he' ; s just so beautiful. And Ramon Velez too. He was an educated person. And they ran against each other. And that was exactly-- that was right when we were-- 1976 when we were still in the takeover. Then, the takeover was finished. And then, there was a march. It was around this time. They finished. The police went and marched. So in the summer, Gerena Valentin was running against Ramon Velez. Ramon Velez, as I said, he would control that organization. If something happened in there, I understand that we will let it hurt. But our godmother-- that' ; s another name that you have to earn-- Evelina Antonetty. She was our godmother. She endorsed Ramon Velez, but she was running are [INAUDIBLE]. This is an organization of parents of demanding education from back in the day is powerful. A lot of progressives that we were-- for us, she used to give in the office to make copies. We didn' ; t have no way to make copies. We used to-- we would go eat. They had a cafeteria. And I' ; m gonna show you-- I' ; m gonna give you some time that you' ; re gonna have to see all of us in the ' ; 80s-- the ghetto brother, the [INAUDIBLE], all the gang. All of this gang, they used to come there, the ghetto brother. And there was the houses. The gang members, they became organizers. Same with the musicians. she endosed Ramon Velez. Q: What were they running for? RIVERA: Councilman. Q: For councilman. RIVERA: City councilman. [INAUDIBLE] Q: Where was her office? Do you remember? RIVERA: Their office was in 381. No, no, This is-- his office was where-- that' ; s what he had like-- he had a headquarters too, the [INAUDIBLE]. It was by Avenue St. Joe' ; s, right-- 149th, for us before. Somewhere around there. All that changed over in there. That was his office. And there was a big fight. Two people got killed. It was a war. They, Ramon Velez' ; s group, Gerena Valentin' ; s group, they used to climb, fistfight. We were, at that time, developing La Raza Unida. A lot of my friends, they was with Gerena Valentin. I didn' ; t participate in the campaign, because we were developing-- I wanted to be an organ-- you know, politics was not. Sure, I wanted Gerena to go. Gerena was very progressive. And they not-- Gerena Valentina on the ballot. There. That' ; s when I started-- anyway-- about the board election. Anyway, the thing is that they not got on the ballot. Now, Gerena is fighting to get written in the ballot. They never thought that Gerena was going to get back on the ballot. Ramon Velez got a PR, took away before the election, weekend before election, because they thought he was out of the ballot. These people got no money. They have this all men law-- and this men for Lincoln lawyer-- and all men. Nobody thought I had a shot to win this case in the appellate court in Albany. He took the case all the way. A night before the election, they came out with their ruling. He' ; s back on the ballot. Ramon Velez' ; s people thought that they had it. So Thought they were like, no. Gerena Valentin' ; s people, they never let their guard down. Then, we will prepare something [INAUDIBLE], [CLAP] we' ; re gonna hit the street. That' ; s why I said, I' ; m going with you guys, [INAUDIBLE]. And the ruling. They called Ramon Velez in Puerto Rico. You better get your ass over here. He' ; s back. He beat him. He beat Ramon Velez. That was the oral surgeon. But they made his life miserable in the city council. He wouldn' ; t get no funding. And we will have to fight because we' ; re not part of the mainstream. They don' ; t have that many city councilmen Puerto Rican right now, in those days. So in the re-election, they all ganged up against him. They stole the election. He lost by three other votes. They stole the election-- board election. And they all-- what they do in election day, they took the elec--we didn' ; t won. And then, Ramon Velez-- so Ramon Velez, it was now, going going back-- Diaz' ; s father, the devil, another reverend, he was always a conservative republican. He used to endorse republican, Republican, republican. And then, he got arrested. Couldn' ; t get-- His father came. I don' ; t know if you heard about Espada. Now, Espada became a trend. They have money. They have the Sunview Center they would give money. Some were aligned-- I was more aligned with the son. I really didn' ; t take the father, Pedro, the one being [INAUDIBLE]. And the Espada came and started making noise. David Rosado' ; s city council seat-- he went to the Senate. Federico Perez another old-timer, becomes the city council. Espada Jr. ran for city council. Espara senior ran for Senator. And they both beat-- they beat Rosado, and they beat Federico. And I like Federico. Fede' ; s a nice guy, Puerto Rican, 79 years old, beautiful. There were a lot of people with Ramon Velez that were real people, just because they were-- and they were educated, world people. So anyway, they beat him. So that' ; s why they had to change. Jose Rivera, my brother, Jose Rivera from-- that we were fighting from the trenches-- Jose Rivera was-- his mentor Gerena Valentin. Assemblyman José Rivera [INAUDIBLE]. Gerena Valentin was his mentor. So anyway, Jose Rivera becomes chairman [INAUDIBLE]. As a matter of fact, when Jose Rivera ran for assemblyman 1982, around there, ' ; 82, it was in the Photos section. At that time, Photo section was turning into a lot of Hispanics more moving. The guy that was-- it was not a-- he was a-- he was a nice guy, part of the machine buy-- a very decent guy. He' ; s [INAUDIBLE] Walsch-- Walsh, something like that. I don' ; t know even-- I [INAUDIBLE], you know? He was the assemblyman. But they already-- the composition had changed in there. So Jose Rivera runs. They' ; re attacking like crazy. All of us progressives were with Jose. I don' ; t really know, you know Howie Jordan from WBAI? He runs the [INAUDIBLE] hour? Q: Yeah. Yeah. RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE]. I was a teacher, he said, outside a lawyer. He was with us those days, and he was with Jose, very close. And we thought getting Jose elected would open the door for us, for progressives, to say, get in-- excuse me-- on the scebne. You know? It didn' ; t happen. Jose became one of the regular. His son became a city council. His daughter becomes a state assembly. And he was the assembly leader. He comes with-- and me and Jose, we have varo. We have varo. We were like-- we were from the old days. And we were arguing all the time. The only thing that I give a lot of respect to Jose was that he would doing with Vieques in Puerto Rico and the Puerto Rican prisoners. But over here, I told-- I-- he becomes regular. So Diaz becomes more powerful. I blame Jose Rivera for the Diaz, for the Arroyo. Instead of supporting progressive people that he knew, that he knew from the get, that he knew for years, instead he was supporting-- now, Diaz' ; s father become a Democrat, they guy who was always supporting Republicans. They put him to run against Espada. And they put Serrano' ; s son to run against the other Espada. And they won. Yeah. They won. So for that, there was an opening from the assembly. They put Diaz on. He came. And then, there was-- in 1990, there was a red line in the new city council. His father becomes city councilman. So now, you' ; ve got the two of them. Then, there' ; s three leaders, and then they charged. And then, they started running low. And now, they control the whole admin. And they control the whole politics. And I don' ; t know how people are that naive. The Arroyo, they are about to become, because the lady-- I know she' ; s running for reelection. But Carmen, I' ; ve got a lot of respect for Carmen for when I ran-- and I told her on the school board when I got elected, and I voted against her to become the president, I told her, I got respect for you, but it' ; s time for you to leave. You people have been around. They' ; ve got their hand in the cookie jar. Well, so, the party, yes, the machine is more stronger, because they' ; ve got more bases. Before, they would depend on Freeman, the white political machine-- no, because again, the population, they control. The Diaz-- the perception that the father just left, one of them-- one of the group got it. They bought pres-- the chair-- the president of the democratic machine, the assemblyman Crespo is one of Diaz' ; s students. They end up with Carmen Arroyo' ; s position too, unless they get somebody to run, somebody progressive. But Carmen' ; s about to go. I don' ; t know if people still-- but going back, the Diazes did a base with the churches. Arroyo, what happened, they did a base with a senior building. They did a lot of senior building. Arsenio, the lawyer, you get him to set an appointment. I don' ; t care how bad you you. You come with the most corrupted. I told her I was going to beat her, and I was going to get out of the vote from the seniors. I was wrong. She came up with a-- they, like, they were her picture. Q: A coffee cup. RIVERA: We went out for a thing outside [INAUDIBLE]. I beat her in [INAUDIBLE]. All of a sudden, she goes over up there and giving to all of those old ladies. Oh Carmen, oh Carlos, I can' ; t compete with this lady. I' ; ve got to admit. I told my sister with the seniors, I can' ; t compete with her, because they love her. She got it for years. And she-- Mother' ; s Day [INAUDIBLE], oh, we were gonna have a party for the seniors. By Lincoln Court, we' ; re gonna have a lechón, a porro. And that' ; s why they got that base. And those are the ones that-- because I beat her. I beat her in [INAUDIBLE], and I beat her our of the seniors. And then, when I told her I was going to get a [INAUDIBLE] of her, it was by Lincoln Court on 38th. Guess what they did? People that vote in there, they' ; re moving to vote that school, 162, by the highway. Yeah. By St. Jerome. And everybody else voting there. They did it on purpose. But not only that-- the night before, I got a call. Maxi, you' ; ve got to get over here. And during the day, I' ; m in the board election, and I see Carmen talking with people on the board election. I though, what the heck' ; s she doing here? So they were taking-- they had this ambulance taking the seniors to vote an absentee ballot. That was illegal. Absentee ballot was the week before. It was deadline. And then, during the day, they was taking the seniors in those ambulance to take to vote. I mean, we were-- Harry and I-- that' ; s why I love Harry-- we went to a court, him and I pro se, with no lawyer. And we get to the over here, to the court that had the-- we were one day late. The matter of, say, our case-- blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah-- but the statute of limitations was over. So we went to the court downtown. And Don-- I don' ; t know if you know Don. Q: Yes. RIVERA: He' ; s a lawyer. Q: Yeah. RIVERA: Yeah. I' ; ll say-- Q: Donald Dunn? RIVERA: Donald Dunn. I say, Harry, we' ; ve got a problem. Why? It was a Saturday-- Friday-- Saturday-- Tuesday was the case. I say, I can' ; t do that. I can' ; t do it. He said, why? I' ; m deaf, because my left ear don' ; t fight. And I' ; ve got to listen. I have to talk to him, and I' ; m nervous. [MUMBLING] And the housing court. This is a [INAUDIBLE]. And I' ; m deaf. I don' ; t know how we' ; re gonna do, because I' ; m not going to be able to listen to him, the one on this side. Yeah, we' ; re gonna need a lawyer now. Nobody wanted to do a case. I don' ; t know what don came for. All I know is I got a call from Harry, I got a lawyer. You do? Yeah. Come by. Come by Blue Park. Went to Blue Park and there, I met Don. And he was good, really a good presentation. And I said, see, this is the reason people don' ; t want politics in here. None of them have no lawyers, their resources. The board election-- so you know, there had to be a further investigation they' ; re in cahoots with the machine. The people that worked, the inspector, they work in there to make her-- if they' ; re going to vote for me, they' ; re going to vote for-- against their candidate. They will damage the ballot. No, no, no, no, don' ; t do it in here. Do it in here. Oh, I just want to vote for one candidate. No, no, you cannot do that. My brother, they messed up his-- when he voted, right? So a lot of people don' ; t run. And I understand money-wise. It takes a lot of money. They need a good lawyer. Me? Only have-- well, we have our complete $15,000. I got free legal, because we had a lot of friends that are lawyers. So my friend Pedro Garcia wanted to represent me. We got in the ballot. It took-- and now, I lost by less than 300 votes. They, on all of those-- they pay everybody. We just got volunteers to call the election. They pay everybody to work on the election. They was paying over $100,000. A lot of these people, they run against, and then, they' ; ll get them thrown out of the ballot after all that work. Because you know, a lawyer costs like $20,000. Then you get somebody that says, well, let me do it for you. And that' ; s what' ; s our problem. People don' ; t get together. So the only way we' ; re going to stop this madness is by getting a federal suit. We challenge. Way into election, right away going to federal court right away. But fortunately, people don' ; t like to get involved. But they fined the community-- well, I don' ; t buy-- I don' ; t get involved with politics. I' ; m going to mention, you let the same people roll your ship in there for 30 years. She' ; s 85 years old. I mean, and it' ; s not about her age. I don' ; t discriminate. She' ; s a little bit got Parkinson' ; s. When she talks, she goes. And she stayed for too-- she did a lot of good things. I respect Carmen for her thing that she did when she came from Puerto Rico with six, seven kids, living on welfare. She started organizing the people on public [INAUDIBLE] You know, she did a lot of good things. But her time to grieve, not to give it to her son, you know. So the politics is one that the people, instead of making consensus, there' ; s only progressive candidate. But also, the spirit of Jose Rivera ni Roberto Ramirez who also became the-- after Jose, he became the chairman. Because they were part of the mission. A guy that I knew, he was a student. He came from Puerto Rico, [INAUDIBLE] went to college. Became a lawyer. He' ; s rich. He ran this business with Luis Miranda that wrote all of the petitions for all the elected officials in the city. They made the petition. They do a consultant. They became rich. Like the petition to get someone on the ballot? Yeah. They' ; re the ones that visit. So all of these people that were supposed to-- that' ; s why people are afraid. One of the things I' ; m interested in is whether the political culture is different in different neighborhoods within the South Bronx in Hunts Point or in Mott Haven or in Melrose. What do you think about that, both in terms of electoral politics but also more grassroots politics? I think that the grassroots in the South Bronx and Motts Point is much stronger than Melrose. See, all these beautiful not only just people that came from our of the neighborhood who probably let her. And then you live in a beautiful place, you don' ; t organizing. It don' ; t mean nothing. See, I used to work for [INAUDIBLE]. And I was a chairman 14 years in another organization that-- and we did-- [INAUDIBLE] two buildings, the [INAUDIBLE]. And what we did, we didn' ; t become the management. We had somebody else to manage the building. What we did when we opened the building, we organized the tenants. We did a meeting with the tenants. We spoke to them about the importance about going to the building, organizing a tenants association. If you heard there were a lot kids, also a youth organization. And we were able to do that. We got a lot of the kids to join-- to do a baseball team. Literally, they used to play here. So they can take pride. This is ours. Here goes nada. That just from over here. No, this is ours. We' ; re going to be here for a long time. A lot of these buildings-- I don' ; t know if they know because I' ; m overdoing that. They were not doing that. A lot of these people-- like I said, these homeowners-- and it' ; s so sad. Because the majority of the homeowners here, like-- they' ; re Hispanic and money hungry. Money hungry. And I told them, this was not for you to make you rich. I said, these houses [INAUDIBLE] it' ; s already went up in prices. Three family $1 million a few years. You don' ; t need to raise your rent the way you' ; re doing so. So across the street, a big building, beautiful building-- come in the summer time. My friend that-- the garden that I don' ; t know, he owned the garden of the block. Latinos Unidos? Uh-huh. Right? Right there. Those people in the building in the summertime hang out on the sidewalk. Everybody brings chairs. Everybody-- they have pool there. You can' ; t even walk through there. But you ask them about organizing, ah, no. [GRUMBLING] So I guess because of the new development, I was still contracting more. People are not organized like in the South Bronx. I mean, this is the whole South Bronx. I' ; m talking about Mott Haven. Also, Mott Haven, I seen that you have more people in there, progressive people moving in and fighting for the community and [INAUDIBLE] I see a little different-- and I think it' ; s gonna be better with the [INAUDIBLE] Unite taking possession. Moncho and my brother-- my brother-- Q: Michael? RIVERA: Michael and all-- I know Harry, now, is gone. He went to Brooklyn. But I see a light. Q: What was the political culture like in Mott Haven in like the 1980s or ' ; 90s? [SIGHS] In the ' ; 90s, again-- in the political was like, we were trying to save what little things that we have in the ' ; 80s and the ' ; 90s. It was controlled by the machine. People would not get involved. Right now, there' ; s more consciousness. I can be more education than-- like I said, once our generation-- my generation [INAUDIBLE] everything was right. In the ' ; 90s, we were just saying, don' ; t take it away. Please, don' ; t take it away. Like I was saying, we were demanded in the ' ; 70s, trying to keep it in the ' ; 80s. And in the ' ; 90s, we' ; re saying, don' ; t take it away. Because they was taking everything away and making all of these programs, then the profiling for [INAUDIBLE] because people were not organized. When they were going to close the post office, they were like, oh, it was Staten Island? They said, no, go to the Bronx. Bronx people don' ; t fight. But that' ; s changing, little by little. It' ; s changing. I see more people little by little, more youth not as, which I want to see it. But it' ; s changing. And there' ; s more--also more information out there, more organizations that they really-- they' ; re not depending on funding from the city. So they don' ; t have to do whatever. And they' ; re doing-- they do a pretty good job. So I see a little-- maybe my generation-- I don' ; t know, my time, but I see. One of the things that I see is the hub on Tell Avenue. I think with time, that' ; s going to be gone. We' ; re gonna lose all those stores, the little stores. We' ; re losing moms and pops. So now, what do we get now? No more grocery store-- one do you call those on the corner? They' ; ve got one here, one at the other corner making sandwiches. Q: Bodega? RIVERA: Deli. Deli. Q: Oh, a deli. Oh. RIVERA: Everywhere is a whole new deli. Fried food. All these-- But with time, we' ; re gonna have no history. That' ; s why it' ; s so important what you guys are doing. Because a school changes the names. Lola de Tio, right across from [INAUDIBLE] on Morris Park-- Lola de Tio got to have three names. They' ; re no longer with time. For 140th-- across from St. Mary, PS 27 and Elina Antonetty. I fought to name that when I was on the school board. And Mother Hayes on the hill, I fought that one too, to name Mother Hayes. When they had the meeting for the year. Oh, I' ; m going to go to my old school. Martha Rodriguez and I, we were on the committee, and we got to name both. But Lola de Tio was a lady in Puerto Rico. She was a poet. She was a writer. She was a [INAUDIBLE], an activist. That gives us some history for our people. Clark 149, my school, 145th Wallace. That' ; s no longer Clark. We' ; ve got like three different charter schools, different names. So when people in-- the alum from Clark, people there in favor from Clark, from Diaz, we never-- we don' ; t got no Clark. Alfred Smith. That' ; s what gave me the idea of running against Carmen Arroyo. Why did I ran? I' ; m gonna tell you. When I was in junior high school, I wanted to go to academic school. The [INAUDIBLE] council, they don' ; t want me to go to academic school. Probably I want to go to-- what do you call it-- like Alfred Smith, not industrial-- Q: Vocational? RIVERA: Huh? Q: Vocational? Vocational high school. [INAUDIBLE] why? Oh, I wanna go to-- I want to be a lawyer. I want to be an engineer. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I don' ; t know. That' ; s why-- right, so. I went to DeWitt Clinton. But that was the thing. They wouldn' ; t say, oh, you better let him become a plumber, electrician, or some-- that, right? Now, in the last few years, the demand for electrician, plumber, the green work, all of this work there to be done, they need vocational people. But now, they want to--they close it down. The close it and send it out. Never. Now that there are jobs out there-- paying good jobs, they closed the school. [INAUDIBLE] we went to a hearing [INAUDIBLE] South Bronx Community Congress. We were in a group. And Carmen Arroyo' ; s os there for her daughter. She was [GRUMBLING] [FAKE LAUGHTER] That was the best thing ever. [GRUMBLING] A week later-- a day later, we were in the paper. Carmen Arroyo and the daughter, Maria del Carmen, made a deal when they close, they take all those programs-- not the whole school-- they want to take the main program out. They were going to take a floor for the charter school. So I' ; m already mad. And I say, hey, Maria de Carmen, she gave me $50,000 for Pueblo en Marcha. Carmen gave me $20,000, but I don' ; t care. Like I said, that money is being used to the community. When I go to a meeting, I' ; ll say, and this is impossible for a grant for the assemblywoman. I let the people know. I say, we make you look good, because we' ; re doing the work. So that happened. About 2011, homeowners 144, over there where I grew up, and still some people in there, when I was a teenager, they still lived there from the old houses, came to Pueblo looking for me. Maxi, [SPANISH] Marcelino looking for you and these people. I said, what happened? Oh, they said, Maxi, bad news. What' ; s going on? You know that lot next door, the empty lot where we live? Oh, they' ; re going to do a construction on a building in there, 60 apartments for 25 years old people mental-- mental health problems, blah, blah, blah. Their departmental head of this building, blah, blah, blah. Oh shoot. ¿De verdad? We' ; ve be fighting in the subgroup to preserve this. Our house is going in-- All of a sudden you want to bring this in? Why can' ; t you just take it somewhere else, another community? We' ; re saturated. And these people-- so we organized, and they [GRUMBLING] research, all the programming. [INAUDIBLE] research, all the programs, different programs in our community. All-- wow. So called for a meeting. Had a meeting. I told them, I said, what happened in your investigation? Well, the assemblywoman' ; s office, they didn' ; t know nothing about it. [INAUDIBLE] and got nothing know about it. The board, you know, nobody knows shit. They tell her this comes from the state. I mean, this is not malice. I know part of this is her territory. But she probably knows about, but this is not her-- this is not a city. It' ; s a state. So it has to do with Serrano and Arroyo and the planning boards. [GRUMBLING] With a planning board, [INAUDIBLE] of the planning board. People are going to do a presentation. Carmen is sitting there. She saw me. She gives me a hug, OK. The person who was doing the presentation was looking at a man. But I know this man. White guy, right? Mm. Yeah. They go-- the lady that working with Pueblo with me with some people at the South Bronx Congress. So I was one of the speakers. When the men-- they were doing when they spoke in their accent, who did he-- he said, we spoke with an elected official. We have sent letters certified with [INAUDIBLE]. We spoke-- so do you spoke-- do you have any communication with community groups? Yes, we spoke to the subgroup committee in Congress. I' ; m subgroup community congress member. I' ; m one of the founders. [INAUDIBLE] was looking at me. Carmen, Santiago, were looking at me. And the homeowners are looking at me like, oh, you' ; re going to [INAUDIBLE]. So when it' ; s my turn to speak, I say, excuse me, who do you spoke to the South Bronx community congress? Did you have a meeting with Carmen in Congress? Who did you talk to? Who did you have a discussion? Who give you a recommendation [GRUMBLING]? Because I' ; m co-founder of South Bronx Community Congress. I' ; m a member. I go to all the meetings. I co-chair the meetings. So I never-- then, he say that his wife is a member of South Bronx Congress, Reverend Lady Alebrón Rivera, the reverend that was in the church in here. And I say, wow. I said wait a minute. I knew that I know you. Now, that I mention it, I saw you in a few activities that we had, social activity. But I never seen you in all of the meetings. And your wife is a lady that has the most respect and love for a Reverend. Lebrón Rivera, she' ; s a true fighter. And I don' ; t think that she gave you the approval, because it was never a discussion with us. And it was a lie. So Carmen, one day-- [GRUMBLING] But anyway, we went to a meeting. We go to Albany. [INAUDIBLE] there Mexican. You go to Albany, Carmen' ; s going to drive you over there or a staff member of one of the the representatives from the homeowners, the president, Dr.-- forgot his name [INAUDIBLE]. I said OK, I' ; ll go to Albany. Went to Albany. We met with the Commissioner of mental health. And they wanted. This lady took us in and showed us what all in the programs and saturation and why we would-- It' ; s not-- And I told him my position, I' ; m not getting mental, because I' ; ve got family [INAUDIBLE] people in my family who suffer, and this is not about them. It' ; s about the location. So anyway, they were-- they wouldn' ; t fucking listen. They didn' ; t want to listen. I forgot. Anyway, they wouldn' ; t listen. Ah, a few minutes. They made her look like nothing. She was nobody. Oh no, we said, copy the letter. Carmen Arroyo, all of them, they knew about it. And she making believe that she' ; s fighting it. When that happened, I said, you know what? I don' ; t have that much time. I' ; m running. What you meaning running, the track? No, I' ; m running against Carmen. Somebody' ; s got to do it, man, to stop this shit. Man, she lied to you, look. She lied to all of us. She' ; s saying to go. And that' ; s why I ran. Q: That' ; s a really good story. If you don' ; t mind, I want to go back and ask some follow-up questions about some of the earlier stuff. RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] I' ; ve been talking, and-- Q: No, no, this is good. Even like the way back. So you' ; re a young teenager in Puerto Rico. RIVERA: 13. Q: How did your parents talk to you about moving to the Bronx? Do you remember how they explained it? RIVERA: No. You see what happened is, when we lived in Puerto Rico, family-- if they' ; re going to school, they-- so there were not too many opportunities, jobs. So they finished high school. I come from a family of eight. So I' ; m the youngest brother and the second younger. My sister and them-- so they were older. for? My sister. When she graduated from high school-- my father used to come and work in the farm. So my sister graduated from high school. Some of the friends that were here, they sent for her. And she got a job offer here. She got a job. She sent for my older brother. Then, my older brother came. And they were trying to send my other brother who finished high school. And they sent for him, so they all got together. My sister got married. So my older two brothers got together. And they got an apartment 144th Street. They used to live in a barrio in Manhattan come to el barrio. And they came to Manhattan. So what happened during that era, the Puerto Rican family-- somebody comes first, establishes himself here, and sends for the other. And then, when we' ; re here, we used to live in the railroad apartment. And we were like eight of us in there. We used to send for our cousin too, from Puerto Rico. So we sent for our cousin. Our cousin came with the other cousin. Then, they get together. They save money. They get an apartment. They send for their family. And that' ; s what they were-- so everybody was getting ready, like I can' ; t wait to be 18 to go to New York. Finally, I got here early. But everybody wanted to come to New York. Q: What did you think it was going to be like here? RIVERA: Well, people lie. When we' ; re living in Puerto Rico, they made some stories. There was two stories that I never forgot. These guys said, man, New York is so much money that you could trip on a rock or something, and money comes up. [LAUGHS] [INAUDIBLE] And another person said, man, I got to tell you about that snow. I was walking. It was snowing, and it was slippery. And I slipped, and I went from one to the other. [LAUGHS] What the hell? He doesn' ; t know. [LAUGHS] Then, we come here to the South Bronx, I' ; ve never seen so much roaches in my life and rats. I mean, they were-- I never seen them in my life. I don' ; t see no rat in my house running-- we' ; re living in a bunch of roaches. And over here, I thought there was no roaches in here. But it was like, you' ; re expecting a lot. When I moved, I remember they were building Mott Haven [INAUDIBLE]. We used to work there-- play in there, Mott Haven. And I started liking it because something new, new sport, snowing. We had no sled, right. So we went with other kids in the Bronx. We said, let' ; s to to St. Mary. We go to St. Mary' ; s to take all of the metals to a garbage can top, steal it from the supers, and go to St. Mary' ; s and going to make [WHOOSH NOISE] slide down with sneakers, no boots. I don' ; t care. We' ; re freezing, but it was fun. Then, Puerto Rico, we have birds. We have parrots, yeah. But it' ; s not like in here. You have birds in your house [GRUMBLING] Over here, they-- pigeon code. The guys they go to the roof frying the bird that lives all those in the neighborhood. I said, what is that? Oh, the pigeon code [MUMBLING] went into our roof. So that was something new. I knew the culture [INAUDIBLE]. What do you call that? We used to do the circle, and then we used to-- Q: Ski ball? No. RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] the other day. Q: Shuffleboard? RIVERA: Uh? Q: No. RIVERA: It' ; s been so many years. They other day, they were-- I was saying football on Facebook. They were showing something. And we used to go in there. You get like a cap, and you fix it real good. You put a little-- maybe you get a candle and put some-- to make a little heavy. Or you go and those-- you know those tiles, the little ones they put in the bathroom? [INAUDIBLE] Sketchy-- Sketchy-- it was something like that-- Sketchy. And you had the cement circles, a one, two, three, four, five, eight, until you-- you' ; ve got to go around putting-- until you get to the middle-- to the middle, whoever the front. And my ma used to get pissed, because I used to my friend, used to get all messed up. So there was a stickball. I didn' ; t have anyplace to go with a ball hitting the stoop. Stickball! You never played stickball? Throw the ball [INAUDIBLE] three bounce, one bounce. And my brother and I, with one of those-- states. We used to take the-- every-- find somebody' ; s broom, left somebody' ; s broom, we would take it. And it was something new. And we embraced all of that. And we were good fight-- you know, playing ball in Puerto Rico, that' ; s all we did, play ball. So that give us a sustent, the jibaros-- no in English. We' ; re going Clark. When we went to your high school, they had the bilingual class. They had very good bilingual class, and we were always fighting with other classes because the jibaros, the non-English. Kids are rude. Kids are rude, you know. And they used to make fun-- they like to make fun of us, so we used to fight. And we used to take their girls too. [LAUGHS] But, you know, it is-- it' ; s amazing. It was amazing. That' ; s why I don' ; t move from the South Bronx. One time, my ex-wife told me, oh, let' ; s move. We' ; ve got to go here. I said no. Where am I gonna move? I moved to-- I did. We moved to Bethel Park. Lasted one year, one year. I said, I' ; m going back to South Bronx. This is where I have everything. I work. I' ; ve got family. I' ; ve got good friends. I feel at home. That' ; s why when I go to see my daughter in Florida, stayed with her, by the second week, going third week, I' ; m going back to New York. They say, well, why, Dad? You don' ; t want to visit? Nah, man, I' ; d rather be in the South Bronx, because when I walk down the street, I know Doña Juana. I know Mr. Brown. When I do this, when I do that. All you Florida people don' ; t talk. I don' ; t know who lives next door to you. I' ; ve been here two weeks. I haven' ; t seen the people that live next door. They' ; re like ghosts. Coming out. And everybody do their own thing, and I can' ; t live here. And mall? You want a mall? A mall? I can' ; t. I can' ; t. And I don' ; t care whatever they say, New York crime or whatever-- but we have freedom. I don' ; t drive. Because I came out of Vietnam. Because back then, I never drove. I said, what I' ; m gonna do in Florida? I' ; m gonna have to have a driver. What I' ; m gonna do, I' ; m gonna start organizing here. [LAUGHS] Do you remember-- and you were talking about how people liked to dress in the late ' ; 60s, early ' ; 70s. Can you describe like what a cool outfit would be? What was that? You were talking about how people liked to dress nicely and dress up. Oh. Oh yeah. Like the clothes were important to you. Can you describe for me what a cool outfit would be? Those days, tailor-made. Tailor-made-- you remember, they had Mr. Tony on 125th Street. He used to-- and some other tailors. That' ; s where I used to work. My father and mother couldn' ; t afford it. So in school-- a lot of people to work and then, they all dressed always. So they used to have proper colored pants. Proper, oh, nice. Alligator shoes-- alligator shoes. They Playboy, they were already out. Alligator shoes. And then, there was a time when the [INAUDIBLE] say knits instead of sweater. They used to call a sweater knits to match your pants real nice. A pocket, a pocket with something like a jacket made of suede. Suede. And then, when you go to a party-- there were a lot of house parties. Everybody-- every weekend after we finished school, high school, on Friday, we used to get together. How many parties you' ; ve got? How many you got? So we' ; re gonna go there. And then, they invite me to this, so I invite all my friends to that one. They invite him, we all go. But no fighting. Everybody party every weekend, a party, house party everywhere. But you dressed with a tie and a jacket and a suit. That was before I went into the service. Real nice-- people dressed to kill. Oh no, that day, if you didn' ; t dress, you ain' ; t cool. I used to go to Bostonian, those Ripleys-- We used to have Ripleys, Astoria, [INAUDIBLE], all the main stores. They' ; re all gone. They went. And I used to buy old shoes and oh, man. I' ; m telling you. Then, when I went to the service, I went to Vietnam, everything started changing when I went into the service-- long hair, people with afros, beards, the hippies, the this and that. When I came out of Vietnam, seeing those people in bell bottoms. The clothes that I made to sell when I was in Okinawa, they ship it to me. That was [INAUDIBLE]. They were out of style. It was like a dream. I don' ; t know. I went, and I came back to a different-- well, things can change in a whole year-- in a whole year. It was not the same. [INAUDIBLE] was not the same. Those parties, they were no longer. People were afraid to make parties. Christmas time, we used to break out New Years Eve in the street. In fact, we used to go dancing. There used to be a club in 149th Street where they' ; ve got that new gym across from Boston Market. They have a gym in there, right? But that used to be a Bronx Casino. It was dancing club for Puerto Ricans. They used to have the breakfast dance. They used to have dance from 9 o' ; clock in the night all the way to 6 o' ; clock in the morning, el desayuno. I was young. When my brother, my cousin, they were older-- sometimes, they let me in, because I looked so young. I looked like a 14 years old. And the fact they didn' ; t let me-- they didn' ; t let me in, but they let them in. So we used to go in there an party. And after we come out of there, we used to go to the cuchifrito. Wow, what a great finish. I ate all of those things in there. I can' ; t do that no more. 6 o' ; clock in the morning, instead of-- and then we go there. Well, you know, yeah, we thought we as doing the right thing. But the good thing about the South Bronx and why I love the summer, the culture, the salsa music. When we talk-- we were talking about dressing good. It goes with the music. They have so many great salsa musicians came out of the South Bronx and came out of the Hunts Point area, all of that area, all of the giants in there. But this was my era. This was when they were young, they came up. We, on 144th Street, before they had closing the street for a block party, we started that. A friend of mine-- there was this couple used to live in the third floor. He used to be a singer and a director of a salsa band. So he used to practice on Friday. When the time came, when they got that little piano, came out. So he used to practice in the sidewalk, the band, [INAUDIBLE] in the night. Get all the light from his apartment and play in the sidewalk, rehearsing. And we used to party. Everybody was playing dominoes. People playing dominoes. People playing with children, drinking beer. And everybody knew each other. There was a gang, Gypsie Surfide When I came, they were like Puerto Rican Surfside. 144th and 45th, it was the Gypsie Surfside 146th. Then, on 43rd, there, they had the Skinner. They were Italian. Then, 138th, they had the Puerto Rican-- what did they call it-- Puerto Rican something. And these people, they used to-- and then, in 144th St., they ha the young Puerto Rican gang by Brook Avenue. And 144th by Willis Avenue, they had a gang, but this is adult. They were already adult in their 20s, Puerto Rican. And one time, one of the ladies of the Gypsie Surfside, the young Puerto Ricans, something happened. They took her to a basement, and I don' ; t know what what. I don' ; t know if they raped her or if she consented. The thing is that I knew Wilfredo. That was her boyfriend. Wilfredo came with another guy with a bat. When he saw that-- what his girlfriend-- before that, he saw-- and I remember seeing her girlfriend coming out the building. She was like drunk. And he came-- he took them. And then later on, he came with other people. I guess he told what happened. He came out. Man, there was a war between the older Puerto Rican with the young Puerto Ricans. And they were like that for weeks. But see, the good thing about that, there were no guns. They used to fight with stickball and you know what I mean? Knives with stickball, fistfight. Somebody wanted to fight, we would fistfight. It was like not now. We can' ; t, you know. And there was us. And they used to mess, the young guys, they used to mess with the people that lived there. But my family, I said, we were five. We had my two cousins. So we were a big family. We were like seven with my father-- we were like six or seven men. And then, friends that used to come in the weekends to visit all, they didn' ; t mess with us. They knew there was too many of us. But then with another else, going to the musician, we had the best musicians. We used to call in the ' ; 60s-- people on the ' ; 70s, boy, they called Las Villas. Las Villas is upstate New York in Puerto Rican community. What is that called, upstate New York? [SIGHS] After Yonkers, all the way-- ay, ay, ay. Rochelle? Huh? New Rochelle? No, no. The other side. Oh. Ah man, I' ; m getting old. That' ; s OK. We can fill it in. But anyway, there' ; s a big Puerto Rican-- a lot of people started going there. But [SPANISH] used to be there. [SPANISH] was-- they are like little houses of music, right? I remember going there, salsa music. They roast pork. And the busses leave from here, you do a fundraiser, take a-- and we used to go in there. I used to go with a lot of the people, with the musicians. They used to play over there, stay there the weekend. Love it. Oh man. Then, when I came from Vietnam, then I went back, it was not the same. Nothing was the same. When did you start to notice buildings being abandoned and that kind of thing? ' ; 71. Came out of Vietnam. Little by little. It came to a time that you could walk from 148th Street all the way to the middle of the block all the way to 138th. Before they were building St. James, Brook Park, all, you could walk all of that through there. Everything was then. 145th Street-- the only thing that was in 145th Street between Willis and Brook was the church. And the house, the white house that is there at 304, that was the only thing, the only house that was there. Everything was gone. 144-- this side, the north side, all abandoned. Just the private houses, the old houses and that. 143rd Street-- 143 Street is-- I mean, 140-- all of it. Where is the park on 143rd and Brook-- and Willis is a community garden. That used to be a supermarket. I work in there too. After 144, I worked there before National Shoes. I used to work in the supermarket. And I was having an activity in there about two or three years ago and I was telling people-- they said, how long you' ; ve been here? Oh, I could tell you. When I was 15 years, old, there used to be a supermarket-- mini supermarket here. And I used to work here, taking groceries, delivering groceries. They said, wow. I said, that' ; s right. Can you tell me about what Brook Park was like before it was Brook Park? It was a schoolyard. It was a basketball court, cement. It was a junkie paradise. That side, the side by Brook Avenue-- or was that the building behind-- there were junkies-- a junkie [INAUDIBLE]. There was some line, big line, people thinking they were giving out cheese or-- and they were all to buy heroin. When people used to walk out-- you walked with a [INAUDIBLE], I remember. I was walking my friend, who was an attorney. We were all going-- we were in Puebla en Marcha. That was in the ' ; 90s. That was not too far. And we were walking down. And all of a sudden, you heard people saying, agua! Agua! Agua! Water! Water! Water! That meant cops, cops, cops. And we' ; re looking, but my friend, his wife, his Puerto Rican wife, he' ; s like a detective . [LAUGHS] So I saw one of my friends that was like a brother to me. He became a junkie. Unfortunately, he died of AIDS. He saw me, he told me, Maxi, keep going. Don' ; t stop. Keep going. Keep going. Because these people don' ; t know you, and they think that you guys are cops. When they see me talking to you, they think that-- you know, it was like that. But all of that Brook-- from Brook Park all the way to 138th, that side, that was tremendous. Now, one thing is-- that I would like to mention-- is the Puerto Rican theater. That is a church now, a landmark. And I' ; m so angry to our elected officials that they let that building go-- historical. Because that' ; s a historical building, that the history of those Puerto Ricans that came to the South Bronx-- not only the South Bronx, but to a barrio. That was one of the few theaters. When I came from Puerto Rico, there was Puerto Rico, the Boulevard. That was Southern Boulevard. There were only two Puert-- Spanish theater. But Puerto Rico was different. But they used to do like Christmas time, they used to light a show from-- people from Puerto Rico learning how it is in Puerto Rico, the parranda and things like that. During the years, the other from Puerto Rico, [INAUDIBLE] they used to have a show coming from Puerto Rico, movie. So this was a main spot for Puerto Ricans. I was 13 years old. Used to go in there, watch the movies, going to the show. And that was a main place that looked-- Puerto Ricans looked forward. To leave the culture and the music, they were dreaming in Puerto Rico. When they sit in there, they-- their mind' ; s going to the island. And it truly is. And they were supposed to save it. And they didn' ; t. [INAUDIBLE] and that' ; s it. They made it into a church. And people are angry, because you know you know the rivalry-- I don' ; t know if you know a little about sports, boxing? The rivalry between the Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans boxing, it' ; s always a rivalry. Every time Mexican, Puerto Ricans fight, especially for a title, hm. Oh, Mexican community rises up. We were behind our Puerto Rican fighter. They' ; re behind their fighter. And you know what that starts? 1967. There was a fighter called Carlos Ortiz, my idol when I was growing up. Those days, we listened to fights on the radio. There was no TV. It was radio. And he used to fight-- they called him the traveling fighter. Nobody in Puerto Rico knew it. So he goes to fight Mexico. It was Saturday-- fight [INAUDIBLE] who' ; s a Cuban resident in Mexico. Left Cuba when Castro took over to live in Mexico. So he became one of the favorite Mexico [INAUDIBLE] one of them, right? So he was fighting Carlos Ortiz. Carlos Ortiz knocked him out. Mexicans, they got pissed. And the referee stopped the fight. He knocked him out. He was opposite to-- Referee stopped the fight. they started throwing-- in those days, they had cans. And now, they' ; re not allowed to throw-- no place, they' ; re allowed to go with cans. They would throw all kinds of shit. Bang, bang. Carlos Ortiz, they were throwing. Man, Puerto Ricans, they are so proud. What happened-- Mexican, Tony Aguilera, Mexican singer, folk singer, had a show in Teatro Puerto Rican, a Mexican having a show. When the Puerto Ricans [INAUDIBLE] find out what happened to Carlos Ortiz in Mexico, they went bananas. At that time, I was a kid, so a teen at 17. So he was great with me. But now, I don' ; t support-- they break-- and they broke the teatro. They made a riot. They made us stop the show and get those Mexicans out of here. They took them-- and they didn' ; t have nothing to do with what happened, but their passion-- their passion, 1967. They broke the glass in the theater and everything. And cops came. They were throwing molotovs. It was a riot. Made gasoline in a bottle [INAUDIBLE] boom. It was a riot for the fight. Starecheski: I never heard that before. [LAUGHS] When did you start to notice Mexicans coming to live in this neighborhood? The other day. [LAUGHS] Yeah. Now, what about in Mott Haven? I think the last 10 years. I could say that. There were maybe a little more. When I was growing up here, Puerto Rican, American, Irish. There were a lot of Irish, lots of Irish. When I lived on 144th those two buildings, they were Irish. Then, they moved to-- when they opened Mott Haven, they moved to Mott Haven or [INAUDIBLE] when they opened up [INAUDIBLE]. The Irish people moved into the projects when they opened them? Yeah. As a matter of fact, there' ; s still a family [INAUDIBLE] from that time, the Kelley family, the Kelleys. There' ; s still one of them that' ; s still in here. And I used to delivery groceries to her. They used to buy-- in the bodega, they used used to-- yeah, there were a few, I think-- I don' ; t even know what was the Dominicans. Next door to us, there was a Dominican family. I didn' ; t know what was Dominican. I thought they were Puerto Rican. You know, everybody' ; s Puerto Rican me. But anyway, the thing is that they were-- when I was in school, there were probably like five students, three or four students Dominican in my class. The rest were Puerto Rican. No Mexicans. I think probably in the last 15 years, 10 years, started moving in. Q: Were there any white kids in your class? RIVERA: Huh? Q: Were there any white kids in your class? RIVERA: Yeah. Tommy-- Tommy Sayesa. He kicked my ass, because I didn' ; t speak English. He used to live on 43rd. He was Italian. You know Italian, I was telling you, 143rd, 42nd-- it' ; s just a funny turf. They used to have the Skinners. They were Italian. They used to see Italians there. And Tommy, Tommy was in my class. And I was skinny. He was bigger than me. I hated that. Talking to [GRUMBLING] somebody. And I remember, he pushed me, and we started fighting. I didn' ; t know that. But then, we confront them the fighting, because back in the-- I used run into him. He was a manager of a supermarket when I used to live in Morris. He moved to Morris. We moved to Morris. He moved there. Then we say-- And there, he became the manager. My sister used to work in the supermarket. [INAUDIBLE] Tommy Sayesa, I was like, remember those days when we were like kids, man, you know? He' ; s just stupid, you know, kids, being a kid. I guess I can' ; t speak English. [LAUGHS] Q: You said that the Skinners. Was that-- RIVERA: A Skinner. Q: What does that mean? RIVERA: I don' ; t know. I still want to know. They had the Young Suicide, the Skinner-- Q: It was just the name of the gang. RIVERA: It was just the name. Q: OK. OK. And there' ; s something else I wanted to ask you about that. Oh. When and why did your family move off of 144th? RIVERA: We moved after I came out of Vietnam-- no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We moved back after [INAUDIBLE] Around 1968-- ' ; 68 or more, before I went to the service. I was in my last year at Morris. We had some friends that used to live in Morris Ave and 168th that was also Irish. They were moving to Puerto Rico, and they asked my parents if we were interested in taking their apartment. And we did. And we moved to Morris. And in 1974, we moved back. I applied earlier-- earlier than that, I applied for the projects. Since I was a Vietnam veteran, I put myself in the application with my parents. I never-- [INAUDIBLE] they got their apartment, but I never got to move with them. I had my own life. Then, I move in there. Then, when they went to Puerto Rico, I [INAUDIBLE] and I moved back, I took-- I took over their apartment. That' ; s why I got elected in ' ; 96 in the community school board. And Carmen Arroyo, first thing that she did when I got her out of the ballet-- I mean, out of president, investigate Maxi Rivera, for he' ; s living in a place that he' ; s not supposed to be living. They thought that I moved into my mom' ; s apartment without housing knowing. Little that she knew that their apartment was given to them because I was a Vietnam vet. Q: And where was that apartment? RIVERA: In 141st and 3rd Avenue, Patterson. Q: In Patterson. RIVERA: Right there by-- across from Giovannia. Right there with the pole? Q: Yeah. RIVERA: I used to live on the 12th floor. Q: Tell me about living in Patterson. So you lived in Patterson from-- RIVERA: Well, my parents moved there from the-- OK, I moved in ' ; 86. Q: ' ; 86? RIVERA: With my-- yeah, my family. Q: OK. RIVERA: After I took over their apartment. And then, I became the-- like always, always-- I became the tenants patrol. [LAUGHS] So I was working in the post office, started working in the post office. That' ; s why it gave me a little living then. Took Pueblo en Marchas. I became the director of the tenants patrol. [INAUDIBLE] work. And then, it get to a point that they couldn' ; t take it, because crack-- when crack came, we tried to organize a building, have a tenants patrol. But then, after 10:00 when the tenants patrol used to close, hell broke loose in the-- people peeing in the elevator. I used to work-- I' ; d come out of work at 12:00. There was times I used to hang out in [INAUDIBLE] with my friends, going to the bar, drink, and come back at 3:00 or 4:00. And then, I got to take those elevators. And then, I say-- into point, I say-- we got to get out of here. I was forgetting-- getting in the elevator, somebody in the middle of open the floor. They get you in there. So I used to take the stairs. Better. I would bring my knife and go up the stairs instead of taking the elevator. And then, we moved to 16th and Girard, right by Yankees Stadium. It was beautiful in there. Go jogging there. I could hear the Yankees when they used to-- and I was a baseball player-- it was good. It was good. But then, like I said, in ' ; 70, we moved back into-- ' ; 86, I moved back in-- I never left. Because like I say, I didn' ; t live in the South Bronx, but I was always in the South Bronx. And I was not that far apart. Like I said, I was by Yankee Stadium, around that area. But I was working in the South Bronx. And then, when I-- yeah. We were on 43rd. Went to Girard. And then, I moved to Bedford Park. And I said, nope, moved back to Brook Avenue. So how can you go from Bedford to Brook Avenue? [LAUGHS] You crazy. But this is-- this is where I feel more comfortable. Q: Tell me about getting this house. RIVERA: Huh? Q: Can you tell me about getting this house? RIVERA: My cousin-- my nephew-- my nephew who was a police officer retired after 9/11. My nephew was like my son. My older brother used to be a correctional officer in Puerto Rico. He died 1971, two months after I came from Vietnam. He died in an accident. And my nephew was one year old when he died. And then, we brought him with us. My mom [INAUDIBLE] in Puerto Rico like three months. But when he was older, he went and went back with his mother. We lost track of him for 10 years. We were looking until we find him. And finally-- we would always be together. He was very fond of my father. My father, grandfather, everything for him. He bought this house-- I was living in Brook Avenue, right across from Brook Park Burger. And I moved here. I never had a beautiful, brand new-- I' ; m the only tenant, the first tenant, only tenant in this apartment. They have rugs and everything. [INAUDIBLE] I sent. I did the floor. When I retired, I did the floor. I did the kitchen. I did the bathroom, the sliding door, [GRUMBLING] throwing me out? [LAUGHS] And this is the longest I' ; ve been in an apartment. I' ; ll be here until I die. Q: How did Brook Park go from being a junkie paradise to being a garden? RIVERA: That was a lot of work. [INAUDIBLE] I' ; ve got to give that to Harry. His people in that corner, a lot every day. That was a lot of work. They did it, man. I did some work, but not what they did, man. You' ; ve got to get to them. That' ; s like when-- I know when I told you last week when they came to 33 and they went there all over there. And people started talking, oh, they' ; re coming to take over. I said, take over what? What are they gonna take over? We ain' ; t got shit here. We ain' ; t got nothing. If they' ; re coming to bring something, I think we should work with them. They' ; re open to come. And I' ; m glad. Because Brook Park is so central. I' ; m sorry I haven' ; t been there in almost a year, because I' ; ve got to take care of this. But it' ; s just so important, because that' ; s a place that I would like to turn this one. A meeting, concentration, people come together. A farm in the middle of the South Bronx-- chickens. I think that one of the best things that-- I say. And I hope everything-- I see somebody else moving to the committee. Michael came, and others. Welcome. Welcome. I got arrested with them two. We got arrested. And I say, whenever you need me, I' ; ll be there. All right. And I said, it' ; ll be 14 years in here. I was never involved. Before they did the park, there used to be a schoolyard. The basketball court used to be in here. They had a big problem, because old-timers, they used to come here and play football all over the-- and there' ; s no problem with that. But they used to sit outside, do a cookout, started drinking and party. And they leave. And when they used to leave, they leave all of that a mess. So move here. Again, I told my nephew, you' ; ve got to do something. You' ; s a homeowner. I could do my part. I went to Carmen Arroyo' ; s office, spoke to her. My friend, Gilberto Rivera, rest in peace, one of the founders of Nos Quedamos. I say, Gilberto, I need Nos Quedamos office. A new Nos Quedamos, and explained to him what was happening. So this whole meeting-- we all went. Everything is fine. Met with Carmen, some of them, a few of them. But not anybody takes time off, and we [INAUDIBLE] Carmen' ; s support. And then, they said, well, I' ; ll tell you what. That' ; s going to be converted into a little league park. A little league park? Yes. So, I said, now you' ; re going to take our schoolyard to convert into a little league park, because when Yankee Stadium built their new park, they took over all the parks. So now you' ; re going to dress a saint-- undress a saint to dress another one. So we started negotiating. I said, well, who' ; s going to play there? Little League. OK. So with the homeowners, we made a Nos Quedamos. And they started liking not going to a meeting. They' ; re different, right? So they build-- I was telling them that the fence should have been more higher if they' ; re going to get bigger kids [INAUDIBLE] in there. So we stop before they build. We stop the whole thing, the drinking and other shit. Build the park. Then, they bring junior [INAUDIBLE]. Junior [INAUDIBLE] 14 years old, 15. No, these kids are big. They' ; ve got power. They' ; ll break you all kind of windows. Oh shit. You wanna [INAUDIBLE]? Q: The baseballs were flying over here. RIVERA: [INAUDIBLE] too big. My nephew played in there. He broke one of the windows. [LAUGHS] So all right, they' ; re started complaining. They didn' ; t go to a meeting, right? They were like-- we had a meeting in the school with the principal, the 40th precinct, my nephew in there. They didn' ; t show up. So when they started complaining to the board, I ain' ; t got nothing to do. I did what I had to do. And they did. They did. Finally, they did. And they stopped. I didn' ; t do it. They did it. So they started playing the [INAUDIBLE]. And then, that' ; s what started me-- and then-- not that they all started fighting because I was telling them. My son was living with me. He came to stay for a few months. He was almost a year. He' ; s say, papa, you' ; ve got to leave. You' ; ve got to leave. I need my space. I love you. We get along, but I need my space. You need your space. So I went to him. I said, listen, you get a one-bedroom apartment? He says, yeah. Well, my son here, blah, blah, blah. He' ; s got a good job. He works for the tunnels on-- he' ; s a sergeant now-- tunnels on bridges. They tunnels on bridges. They tried borrowing all of the people in there. Yeah. So I said, he got a good job. He blah, blah. I said, how much is the rent? $1,100. 13 years ago. I said, $1,100 a month? Why? How much is your mortgage? I think we just-- because that was two bedrooms. I think with apartment that' ; s two bedrooms, you could pay your mortgage. I said, you don' ; t pay rent downstairs, because now you' ; re really free of rent. So you save rent money. And with the two, you pay your mortgage, live for free. So why so much money? So they' ; re having a tenant move in there now. Section A, they used to live stranded, and then this, the two-bedroom back $1,400. Now, they' ; re asking $1,500. So when we started organizing for the building, some of them made some comments. They started drinking, and I started talking to them. Sometimes when people drink, silly what they' ; re thinking. And he said, well-- that' ; s what I find out-- he said, oh, one of the homeowners goes, You know, Maxi, you are a great guy. You' ; re a beautiful guy. [GRUMBLING] But a lot of the people here don' ; t trust you. I said, why? Oh, because you think I' ; m-- we' ; re rich. You think that we' ; re rich and [GRUMBLING]. I said, oh. You think that I think that you guys are-- oh, so I think that my nephew' ; s rich, too. Right? He said, no, papa. He said different. If I want to buy a house like this, I' ; ll go to buy it. [INAUDIBLE] I could [INAUDIBLE] design [INAUDIBLE] for me. He said, but, for me, never. I wouldn' ; t. I said, I-- so why do you think that I think that you' ; re rich? You know, I said, I retired from the post office. I always had good jobs. I' ; m gonna tell you-- and they' ; re like, you, because you' ; re always running to one job to the other one. You telling me-- I said, no, what I' ; m telling you is that a lot of people sacrificed their lives and fought for these houses for you guys that didn' ; t even live in this community to take advantage. And you know what hurts me? That you' ; re renting those apartments to your people, the emigrants. That they can' ; t even afford to pay those rents. They have to live like, two families. This is why it worries-- its gets me is that you' ; re doing-- what they were doing to you, you' ; re doing to them. And that' ; s what' ; s the difference between-- it' ; s not that I don' ; t along. I get along with everybody. I don' ; t care if they' ; re white, they' ; re black, they' ; re whatever. That has nothing to do. So now, hey, Max, Max are you going to take over that garden, yeah? Because they knew-- I told him that' ; s going to come back. That' ; s a $6 million project, and somebody' ; s going to make millions. [SPEAKING SPANISH] anything that you-- Q: Just maybe-- how about two or three more questions? Is that OK? RIVERA: Yeah. Q: And I know we' ; ve been talking for a long time, but there' ; s so much I want to know. when did you start to realize that gentrification could be an issue in the South Bronx? RIVERA: [SIGHS] To tell you the truth, it was not too long. I think when [INAUDIBLE] and these people started fighting for the waterfront, that really started it. But because late ' ; 90s the city-- the state power authority came out with-- they want to build three power plants. There were five, two of them here. But then when we saw it, the one that was from Queens, they were closer to the Bronx than to Queens. So we figured we had four. And we started organizing. I remember-- it' ; s funny-- yeah, yeah. I' ; m deaf, but my memory' ; s great. I got a nephew that' ; s an activist too. He lives in Santana, the one that came for [INAUDIBLE] and his wife both participating in the farm workers. I called a meeting of Pueblo en Marcha to bring all the community, different community organizations to see, how can we all work together? That was in the ' ; 90s. How can we all work together, like in a coalition, put our difference? There' ; s enough territory for everybody. There' ; s plenty of work. So [INAUDIBLE] a meeting. Harry came. That' ; s when I started knowing Harry. Prior to that, they had a meeting, y Espada, Senator Espada or whatever, office. And I didn' ; t go. They were talking about the power plant, and I was not even aware. So when I had that meeting, these people came, they started talking about the power plant and all that. So that meeting, instead of doing a coalition of different organizations to organize, we did the South Bronx Environmental Coalition. That came [INAUDIBLE], came out of there-- Harry and we were fighting the power plant. My nephew and Harry, they went to school together, Cornell-- Cornell University. My nephew, I said, you know him, that white guy? That white guys is crazy. [LAUGHS] Quédate. No, he' ; s a nice guy. [INAUDIBLE] crazy, Harry, crazy. That' ; s why we started organizing. That' ; s how to grow a environmental coalition. Going back to your question, is there going to just power plants in there and then the burns-- the incinerator right up from the street, the one that we closed. I mean, they had no plan for the waterfront. But all the businesses, all of the younger-- I never thought. Well, I wanted-- the new millenium, and I started seeing people develop in the waterfront in Queens and different places. And then, I hear Harry and other people talking about, we should have access to the water. We shoot the canoe. And then, that' ; s why I really-- I never-- I knew-- because I' ; ve been been a housing organizer, that something was going for an instant. Wagner, Robert Wagner, the mayor of New York-- until the early ' ; 60s, he was the mayor. I remember it. I was a kid. They had the Wagner-- Robert Wagner Plant. They were to make Manhattan a fantasy island. OK, displace all of those people-- Manhattan el barrios, the West Side, Manhattan Avenue, all of those, Amsterdam, all of the 90s to 100-something something street. Ah, this place-- to make a fantasy island. It was a lot of fun. It used to be a program. The same thing with the West Side. Back in the ' ; 70s when I was working in Morris Heights, people were saying, you see this part of the [INAUDIBLE] Bronx? And that part of the South Bronx by what they' ; re building now, that' ; s going to be prime real estate. And I' ; m talking about back then, the late ' ; 70s. I said, you know why? Because come a time, that people are gonna have to-- they' ; ll want to move back. They' ; ll want to move back to the city. In those days, gasoline was started going up. People in Co-op City, they want to get out of there. Co-op City was sinking, they were saying at that time. A lot of people want to leave Co-op City. Well, [INAUDIBLE]. And that' ; s what I started learning, anything by the waterfront, by-- on the bridges is good real estate. Because let me tell her, they could build apartments for rich people, and they don' ; t have to come to the community. They' ; ve got a high one in there. They could to the tri-state are, whatever they want to go without coming. And that was then [INAUDIBLE]. But they' ; re all getting prepared with it. I started hearing about gentrification. What the hell is that? But it was not until about probably 10 [INAUDIBLE] Brook Park started to-- started making noise-- Johnson, Michael, and those people. It' ; s a shame, man. It changed the-- changed-- what do you call it? The income of a family of four over here is $21,000. With a new mayor, they charged to $33,000. Family of four, $21,000 here struggling. And when people-- you know, what would get me, people, a lot of people-- I mean, good people, it' ; s they don' ; t understand. They' ; re not educated. And one time, my nephew used to be-- had that mentality too. And he said, oh, but for what, to give people on welfare, people don' ; t work. I said, let me tell you something, papa. When we' ; re talking about housing, oh yeah, sure, we' ; re talking about everybody. But you' ; ve got a lot of family here. And then, he realized it. I said they got a family here, working family, that don' ; t make not even $20,000. And they' ; re a working family. They work two jobs. Everybody as trying to pay that rent. I' ; m not talking about those people out there. I' ; m talking about working people. And yeah, there are people on social services because, probably, we' ; ve got a lot of single mothers with kids that they can' ; t go to work. Or the other people, they have their reasons. Sure, you have a lot of people that don' ; t want to do it. But I' ; m not gonna-- I' ; m not talking about those, papa. So every time they talk about affordable housing, they think about, oh, [SPEAKING SPANISH] time to go to work. It' ; s a perception. Q: Let me make-- you were talking about the waterfront ad gentrification. Do you mean that when you started hearing people talking about getting access to the waterfront it made you think that that was going to be part of a gentrification process, getting that-- RIVERA: No, no getting [INAUDIBLE] not giving us answers to the waterfront-- something-- they were hiding something. Something was hiding. Because like I said, after the power plant, I never thought-- but then, Randall' ; s Island come to play. Right there, Randall' ; s Island I grew up going Randall' ; s Island. We didn' ; t used to go to the bridge. We used to go to Willis Avenue, going there-- go right. My father, my brother, everybody played softball. I grew up going there weekends. We didn' ; t go to Central Park. We' ; d go to Randall' ; s Island. And there, they used to have a little fiesta, the fiesta from [INAUDIBLE]. Come back in the ' ; 90s to 2000, renting over on this island to rich school. We did with Melissa [INAUDIBLE]. We demanded the bridge, that thing with the bridge with access to there, stop the drinking-- I mean the rent. They have parties in there, champagne for the really, really-- oh, man. Right there, that told me he is very serious. And that' ; s why I' ; m going back, taking away what we fought for, they' ; re taking away little by little. And until white people wake up, smell the coffee-- ' ; 70 we fought. ' ; 80, we fought a little. ' ; 90, don' ; t take it. And now, again, it' ; s doing that one. But when I saw the move Randall' ; s Island, I said, mm, It' ; s not for us. The [INAUDIBLE] building got repaired after so many years abandoned. Then, we get in-- [INAUDIBLE] school. I don' ; t mind having all of them from SoHo move in, the anti and the artists. But don' ; t gentrify. We want. Don' ; t feel that you-- in one community with two-- tale of two cities. Tale of two cities You know, we come here and here. And it' ; s funny because when I was in high school, I never thought I was going to get into politic, you know. But in my literature class-- and I really didn' ; t like it-- [INAUDIBLE]. It was my last class, as a matter of fact, in the afternoon. We read a book-- I think I read about- John Steinbeck. We read John Steinbeck. It was more like socialism, Grapes of Wrath. And I-- never paid atten-- and I liked the book. Then, there was another book, Charles Dinken, A Tale of Two Cities. Did you know, never in my life [INAUDIBLE] started running for office, he started calling me Tale of Two Cities, it hit me. All of a sudden, it hit me, I said wow, that was Dinken. Dinken. Dinken. Dinken. Dinken, go figure. It was a coincidence, right, that [INAUDIBLE] later, here we find Tales of Two City. Isn' ; t that something? Q: The last thing I want to ask you about is I realize you mentioned your kids a little bit and your wife. Can you just tell me a little bit about your family life, like how did you meet your wife, for example? RIVERA: First wife, second wife? [LAUGHS] Q: First wife. RIVERA: No, I met-- crazy-- I was working National Shoes 170. I was assistant manager. That' ; s where I met my first wife, my daughter' ; s mother. Funny, because that' ; s why I started organizing. I used to-- 170, when I got together with her, they used to live 170 and then Townsend Avenue. Townsend, 170. So when I got together, I move in the area to the street. And that as early ' ; 70s. I really-- I wanted-- at that time-- because when I come out of Vietnam, I made me a promise that I was going to get involved. That was a promise that I made. So at that time, I said, how am I going do this? That' ; s when I met-- when I was working on Saturday-- every Saturday morning, a group people used to come outside the store to sell newspaper. They call it Claridad. Claridad was a newspaper for the Puerto Rican socialist party. So I started talking to them. I already knew that I was going to become fight for-- they' ; re already involved. Let' ; s put it this way. Pero I started [INAUDIBLE]. I was not into no groups. So I started [INAUDIBLE], and that' ; s how I become close to them. And I became part of-- they used to deliver the newspaper. And then, I used to go to the meeting. And then, we used to meet in different houses. In my house, we have a group of people. We used to take a book or something, an article. And we used to read that article, and we used to discuss it. Every week we used to do that. That' ; s why-- I didn' ; t learn nothing. My education mainly came from the street. People ask me, what was your eduction? Well, I got a PhD for the South Bronx Street University. So I started with them. Then, I led NYCHA. I mean, I led the post office. I went to Bronx Community College. That' ; s why the margin. And then, I started to say, I want to organize. Instead of organizing tenants-- I always tried to organize my first building. I didn' ; t know what the heck I was doing. That' ; s what made me realize, because I used to talk to people, Puerto Rican people, about the independence of Puerto Rico. And they' ; re over here, right. And people would say, mira, don' ; t talk to me about the independence of Puerto Rico. Talk to me how I' ; m gonna get heat and hot water, how I' ; m going to get a job, how I' ; m gonna get my landlords to repeal my-- and I used to bring that to the people. I said, we need to get involved in our community [INAUDIBLE]. Because OK, republican, but the issue-- people here have got different issues. And then, the people that we coming from Puerto Rico, they didn' ; t understand. And then, we used to smoke. OK. Our generation, we used to smoke pot. They like it. They called us loopers-- loopers-- loopers like somebody' ; s on drugs, like-- home. And we had a lot of [INAUDIBLE]. So I did say that' ; s what we did, whole story, La Raza Unida. And then, I started organizing the youth block party, closed the block party, had a lot of gang, lot of musician friends. So I used to bring live music with a band and everything. We cleaned the block before, and then after we finished, we had some stickball. So National Shoes I ended up across the street [INAUDIBLE] my first wife. And we were-- she was not a politician. She' ; s a very possessive person, very possessive against [INAUDIBLE]. And then, I remarried again. I married a person, a beautiful lady. We went to school together. She was in Clark when I was in the [INAUDIBLE]. But we were the jibaros. She was one of them that called us a jibaro. She came over here when she was a baby. She was one that would call us a jibaro. And I' ; d say, well, now, what are you doing with this jibaro now? [LAUGHS] But yeah, say, well, you' ; ve got it. You' ; ve got it. Look. you still like the jibaros more, right? We were fired. We didn' ; t let nobody intimidate us. And we were together. But you know, Manuela' ; s a great person, a great person, and my second wife understanding. She didn' ; t have no family here. Her sister went back to Puerto Rico. And unfortunately, I was too involved. Like I said, we get emotionally tied up to so many things. It' ; s like never finished. You are working on something. You finish, and before you finish on that one, something' ; s already waiting for you. I guess she was a little tired. You know, she-- I don' ; t blame her. I don' ; t blame her. She said, I' ; m going to Florida. And I said, well-- [INAUDIBLE] she moved to Florida. We were together. I used to go to Florida, stay with her, blah, blah, blah. It was not about love. It was not about betrayal. We' ; re still the best of friends. She remarried. I haven' ; t. A lot of people, oh, you' ; re still a hot guy now with a few dates here and there. I still love her. She is still the woman in my heart. Unfortunately, sometimes you make decisions that hurt. And I said to my son and my daughter, this is our decision [INAUDIBLE]. You know, we made a decision because I couldn' ; t move to Florida. If I would have moved to Florida, I will die, because who I am. I said, what would it be worse? Then, she became a religious. And she became a Christian, a Catholic. There are no problems. But the thing is that she was very involved in the church. And it came to a time that she didn' ; t [INAUDIBLE] music. I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know who I am. You know I can' ; t go without my music. I like to have my beers. I like to go to concerts. I don' ; t go dancing. I' ; m a good dancer, but I don' ; t. Well, as a family-- I go to a cruise. I go on a salsa cruise. Last year-- no, at the end for Thanksgiving, we went to Santo Domingo. Seven bands, salsa bands from Miami. This year, we' ; re leaving from Miami to Cuba. Give me salsa. Give me music from 10 o' ; clock in the morning to 4 o' ; clock at night, I' ; ll be party. And nobody will stop us. And I love that, and she knows it. But every morning, she sends me something. And I send her something. When I went to-- for Christmas, I went to Florida. I went there with my daughter. I went to her son' ; s-- my stepson-- this is my son too. And she came. And we spent the first time in so many years. My daughter was there. Only one was missing. My son from over here was missing. But [INAUDIBLE] she was great. She support me. And that' ; s why I-- she need me whenever she was unavailable. But she was a great lady. And here today, she saved my life. There was a time when I broke from my first wife, I was working with NYCHA organizing. My mom here, my parents still lived in the projects in Patterson. My sister, 145th, my older-- you know, all my family here, my brothers and sisters. I recall, I used to sleep in the park, the old track-- there used to be a [INAUDIBLE] track, running track. I used to sleep in there. There was a park all the way at the end, right behind the new Yankee Stadium. I used to sleep in there. I used to sleep in the roof of my mother in the projects-- my mom, my pops, living downstairs. I didn' ; t want to deal with nobody. Came to a point. And then, I used to go to my mom' ; s house, take a shower-- my parents, [INAUDIBLE] take a shower, get dressed to go to court. But I tell you, my mom would say, man, eh, she knew. My mother, you don' ; t lie to me, mother, we feel. We feel. We' ; re feeling. This is a feeling. You' ; re doing-- you' ; re not doing good. No, Ma, I just came from this lady' ; s house. Well, how come you didn' ; t took a shower in there? It was true. And then, I met my wife. Funny. Housing call. Somebody recommended it to her. She had a problem with her landlord. She came to the office, beautiful lady. When she met me, she thought I was a Christian, a religious person. She said, you were so humble and so quiet. You know, I said, oh, you don' ; t-- really don' ; t know the real me [GRUMBLING]. But I went. She had a lawyer for her case. I said, you didn' ; t need a lawyer. She paid $300 an hour. And I resolved her case. And one day, she told me, I would like you to take-- I would like to take you out for coffee. All right. OK. And that' ; s it. That was the best thing that happened to me was meeting her with my organizing. And she' ; s a great lady. When I see my son, first thing-- he came over on Saturday-- I said, have you been talking to your mother? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When she seeing-- or talk to him, I said, do you be seeing your father? He' ; s not my son, by the way. He' ; s my stepson. But I raised him when he was seven years old. And the first time him and his brother-- his brother' ; s older by three years-- we went to Yankee Stadium. I took them to Yankee Stadium so I could, you know [INAUDIBLE] Yankee Stadium, the old Yankee Stadium with the bleachers. When they started playing the national anthem, I sit down. I didn' ; t get up. I don' ; t get up. My island is a colony. I ain' ; t got nothing against Americans. I fought in the war. And that time with Vieques and that. And they asked me, why you don' ; t get up? Why don' ; t get up? Then I started, little by little later, right-- I never-- politics, nothing. I got married [INAUDIBLE] and nothing. My son used to call Michael. His name was Michael Colón, right? I call him Michael Co León. By the time he got to high school, he was no longer Michael. He was Miguel. This is when-- I never taught him about anything, nu-uh. But he himself saying to my daughter, you know, you look for your roots. [INAUDIBLE] you know who I am. And the way-- but you look, and never. Yes. He became also a poet and he do his little things in the community. And to this day, when he talks, he says, I remember the first I went with my father to Yankee Stadium. They were playing the National Anthem. Everybody getted up. Yet, he wouldn' ; t get up. And I tell him to get up, but he wouldn' ; t get up. And everywhere else. Q: I feel like there' ; s a million other things I' ; d like to ask you about. And maybe we can do more later. But I know you must be tired today. Is there anything else that I should have asked about that I didn' ; t or that you wanted to say or talk more about or add? RIVERA: Everything comes. Q: OK. We can do more anytime. RIVERA: Yeah. Yeah. You got to [INAUDIBLE]. Take a look at the hostess. Q: Yes. RIVERA: If you wanted to interview one, I could get you Nilsa. She' ; s in there with a big [INAUDIBLE] That' ; s my sister. She' ; s a great-- [INAUDIBLE] also getting work for legal aid, legal services, legal aid. She worked with this program tenants used to-- through legal aid in Manhattan. Got a lot of building when they got the tenants to won the building. [INAUDIBLE] like I say, after we came [INAUDIBLE] party. [INAUDIBLE] The ' ; 80s and the ' ; 90s were fighting for housing. And everything they used to-- police brutality, you know, everything. One time-- I' ; ve got to tell you-- one time, we were with Nilsa Ramón, all in Brooklyn. Police killed this man Lebrón. He was a mental-- he had mental illness and problems. His mother called the cops because he was being-- and police caught him, ended up killing him. They shouldn' ; t have killed him. They were, anyway, they couldn' ; t. But anyway, I remember it was late ' ; 80s, I think it was-- in the ' ; 80s-- no. Yeah. ' ; 80s-- ' ; 70s or ' ; 80s-- Reverend [INAUDIBLE] he was a big figure in Brooklyn, the Reverend. He was the owner at that time. And he had this mobilization. We went to Brooklyn. Oh, man. The lawyer for legal services-- we took a van. Wow. Fed up! Can' ; t stand! We' ; re fed up. We can' ; t take it no more. We' ; re fed-- we want justice. We' ; re fed, right. All of this was dark. We were in Brooklyn. All of a sudden, police were on the roof, police all over. And we' ; re marching like this, right, like this. So don' ; t give no, nobody, we' ; re marching. Q: With your arms linked together. RIVERA: Cops chased-- came after us. Man, we were all running. They were come and hit, right? I took this. She had-- black, took her briefcase, my other friend. And we said, well, we don' ; t know-- there were private houses, started knocking on doors. And then, I was there with my friend Julio Pavón, whose turn-- Police came. He said, I know my rights. I know my rights. He said, your rights? Bing. [LAUGHS] I never forgot-- we were running all over Brooklyn. We didn' ; t kno where. And they were all scattered. And we said, where' ; s the train station? How could we get home by? [LAUGHTER] Q: It' ; s far, Brooklyn. RIVERA: You know, there' ; s good memories. All-- Q: It' ; s funny that you-- that that' ; s not exactly a happy memory, but like-- RIVERA: No, no. But-- Q: [LAUGHS] Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. It' ; s been really-- it' ; s been really special for me to get to learn from you today. RIVERA: Anytime. Anytime. Thank you. Q: And I appreciate you taking the time to-- RIVERA: If I get my youth together-- I get my youth together-- I hope to-- they' ; ve got to give me time. Q: Yeah. RIVERA: But if I do, maybe I could invite you, so you could talk to them. Q: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I would-- and as, you know-- think about ways that you think would be useful to share this material. We can do like a listening event. We could do a walking tour, a website. Think about how you think it would be the best way to help people hear your story. All right. Thank you. RIVERA: It was that. It' ; s good. We' ; ve got to document it, because that' ; s what we' ; re going to have left for a new generation. I don' ; t think that we just came here and did nothing, no. There was other people who worked and fought very hard, come together, all different races together in the South Bronx. And that' ; s why-- that' ; s why I love Harry. I have to tell you. Harry is my brother. Marty and Harry, those are my two brothers. And there' ; s another man that-- he lives in [INAUDIBLE] Court, Irish. He' ; s about-- close to 70, 80 years old-- Tony Dalton. You' ; ve got to meet Tony. Q: I would love to. RIVERA: He lives in [INAUDIBLE] Court. Tony, my hero. Tony used to have a shelter, run a shelter with some money. He was a elevator [INAUDIBLE] mechanic. Back in the day when there were other shelters, he had a shelter paid for his own money [INAUDIBLE]. Tony, when St. Jerome' ; s roof was coming down, they have-- there was emergency-- he goes swimming every day in St. Mary' ; s Park. Every morning you find Tony. He came [INAUDIBLE]. He did, for eight hours, I think it was, seven, eight hours in the swimming pool People giving, say, $10. I' ; ll give you $0.25 for every lap that you make. And he made more than $10,000 and all in the quiet. Pueblo en Marcha, when I was telling you that they took the funding, they took our funding. They thought we were going to be closed. I got a call from the church rectory, the secretary said, Maxi, we need you to come to the office. So I went to the office. I say, somebody gave a donation to Pueblo en Marcha, but I cannot tell you who it is. I can' ; t tell you who it is. That person would not allow it. When I opened the envelope, $5,000. Years passed, post office, Tony helped me. He gave me so many [INAUDIBLE] fighting the post office. Then Tony, in St. Rita In 145th and College, by PS 18, there' ; s a church in there, by Patterson. He used to have a basement. He used to have youth group in his pocket. Never-- my son went through there. Lot of generations from St. Pius went through that. Then all of a sudden, the church [INAUDIBLE] they kicked him out. He was pissed. Now, Tony was living in St. Pius in the rectory. Because he that operation, he couldn' ; t climb. So I got him, through Richie, Carmen Arroyo' ; s grandson-- and then, I got him to give me and apartment. And that' ; s where he live. This man, he will not-- I had to beg him-- he did a story with a Colombian student years back. He didn' ; t want to do it. And we begged him. Because somebody had told the student. They cam to Pueblo. And I said, yeah, we know Tony, blah, blah, blah. He was trying to get an interview, because they had spoke to him about-- they had spoke to them about him. And Tony refused. And then, he did it. It was amazing. Then, showed us the interview. We asked Tony, Tony, if you want, through Pueblo en Marcha, we could do some proposals to the Youth Board, to Citizens Youth, all of these people, you know. I said, you could get a couple dollars. Don' ; t tell me. Nobody. I' ; m going to get no money from nobody telling me how to run my place. I don' ; t want the government to come here and they take to me. You' ; ve got to meet Tony. Q: I want to meet him. RIVERA: 33rd. And he became the president of something organizing in [INAUDIBLE] Court. Oh, I haven' ; t seen him for about a couple of years. But he' ; s still around. People like Tony-- Q: Yeah, think about who else would be good for me to talk with. RIVERA: Nilsa for the ladies in the tape, Mari Rogers. These are people that they-- I' ; m talking about more than 30 years, easy. Q: OK, I' ; m gonna turn it off. RIVERA: OK. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Rivera_20180320.xml Rivera_20180320.xml
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Bronx, NY
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Title
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Maxi Rivera Oral History Interview
Date
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2018-03-20
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audio
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The topic of the resource
Maximino (Maxi) Rivera was born in Puerto Rico in 1950. His father was a cane cutter, and when he moved to 144th Street in Mott Haven in 1963 he and his brother were teased as jibaros, although their baseball skills helped them to make friends. He had eight brothers and sisters. As a kid he shone shoes at the Hub and worked in a grocery store, and he attended Elijah D. Clark Junior High School and DeWitt Clinton High School. He graduated high school in 1969 and was drafted that summer. He fought in Vietnam in the Marines, where he was radicalized by encounters with racism and colonialism. When he came home to a changing neighborhood, he got involved in the Puerto Rican Socialist Party, and then in local housing struggles and electoral politics. He was on the school board, ran Puebla En Marcha for 24 years and in 2012 ran an unsuccessful campaign against Carmen Arroyo for State Assembly. Maxi worked in the post office from 1984 to 2010, where he was a shop steward and then elected the Bronx director of the New York Metro Postal Workers Union. He has 4 children, 5 grandchildren, and 2 great grandchildren, and now lives on 157th Street in Melrose. He remains active in progressive politics and recently began working in the Rainbow Life on Earth garden on his block.
Description
An account of the resource
Maximino Rivera, 68 years old at the time of the interview, was a migrant to New York City from Puerto Rico at 13 years old. He discusses the sadness and shock he felt as an immigrant adjusting to a new place as a child, his dealings with corruption and abuse within the U.S. military while fighting in the Vietnam War, and how that inspired him to join the Puerto Rican Socialist Party after his return to the U.S. Particular detail is also given to his extensive involvement in grassroots social justice organizations in the 1970’s-1980’s such as Hostos Community and Pueblo en Marcha. He discusses his fight for housing justice and dealings with many specific politicians and organizations in his ongoing fight for social justice.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ana Soler
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Soler_Ana_20180613.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Soler_Ana_20180613 2:40:08 Columbia Oral History MA Program Ana Soler Amy Starecheski 1:|2(3)|56(11)|64(8)|71(6)|83(5)|92(2)|103(1)|113(10)|122(9)|137(10)|145(4)|157(2)|176(3)|185(7)|201(7)|214(2)|223(6)|234(2)|246(5)|266(8)|275(1)|285(2)|292(14)|301(7)|310(5)|317(8)|331(14)|339(9)|349(2)|357(7)|372(11)|381(1)|389(1)|398(4)|406(12)|423(1)|431(16)|440(14)|455(5)|466(4)|476(6)|487(9)|498(6)|523(12)|535(5)|554(16)|571(3)|582(9)|594(2)|609(9)|630(12)|645(7)|654(8)|673(3)|682(9)|693(9)|702(1)|718(1)|727(15)|737(11)|745(7)|754(17)|766(1)|776(12)|786(6)|796(2)|815(7)|824(17)|836(2)|844(7)|856(11)|866(9)|876(4)|884(12)|895(1)|903(13)|915(6)|925(4)|937(13)|949(12)|960(13)|968(1)|975(14)|1002(5)|1011(12)|1019(8)|1028(2)|1040(6)|1056(5)|1067(16)|1080(1)|1088(14)|1098(13)|1110(3)|1118(13)|1126(14)|1134(8)|1143(13)|1151(12)|1162(9)|1172(5)|1187(10)|1194(7)|1202(3)|1211(8)|1220(9)|1228(14)|1236(8)|1246(14)|1259(4)|1268(1)|1277(5)|1286(4)|1302(3)|1316(7)|1324(13)|1335(19)|1345(16)|1354(7)|1364(7)|1373(5)|1383(4)|1389(7)|1398(5)|1405(9)|1414(10)|1433(4)|1444(8)|1456(7)|1465(6)|1473(2)|1484(10)|1493(14)|1502(9)|1512(10)|1521(20)|1533(3)|1542(9)|1553(4)|1564(15)|1573(14)|1586(11)|1597(13)|1613(15)|1626(1)|1640(4)|1653(3)|1668(8)|1678(11)|1687(4)|1696(3)|1703(11)|1713(1)|1720(10)|1729(6)|1738(6)|1748(8)|1758(16)|1782(5)|1810(11) 0 SoundCloud audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/730277182& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=false& ; show_comments=true& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=true& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Introductions and Childhood in Puerto Rico Fish tank filter is unplugged so the audio isn't affected. Ana speaks in Spanish to her grandson Matthew. Interview takes place on June 13th 2018 for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. Ana Soler was born June 5th 1943 in Puerto Rico and she had a " ; beautiful childhood." ; They didn't have a TV, refrigerator or toilet. Used to bathe in the river and use a coal powered iron. By the age of 6, Ana was cooking while her mother was at work and her father was in the army. Children has to take care of themselves. Would go to school barefoot and would put on shoes once they got to school. Ana says she will never forget where she came from, and loved her old life. Her mother would leave for work at 4am and would walk to work because there were no cars - she would return at night. There were five children, Ana and her four brothers. School was also a long walk away but the children were happy, would play dominoes and other " ; nice games." ; Notes that kids these days don't know what its like not to have a lot of clothes. 241 Picky Eater and Leaving PR Ana says she has always been a picky eater and growing up they used to eat the same thing for every meal. Was called pana (breadfruit), her other used to put fish in it or anything she could find to make it exciting but Ana still thought it was bad. Ana sees it today in the supermarket and her hair stands up. Whenever she goes back to PR people ask her to bring some back which she doesn't understand. Ana left PR when she was nine and went to school in New York until she was in the third grade. Family got a car and a refrigerator, but still no TV. Saw a toilet for the first time. Describes the first apartment as being like the subway - weren't divided up, bathtub was in the kitchen, father wouldd put a curtain around for privacy. Instead of five brothers, there were now seven, she was very close to them 411 House in PR House in PR was destroyed in a hurricane and a subsequent flood, killed grandmother. Family lived in a tent for a year and a half after, the government built houses and her mother was able to get one. Her mother worked in a cigar factory. She would come home smelling of tobacco, the work was hard. She appreciated her parents and they taught her the value of work from a young age. By six she was already cooking. She and her sister and her brothers would take turns cooking, ironing and cleaning the house. Her mother worked from 6am to 8pm, when she got home the children would take care of themselves and make sure their mother had something to eat. Her mother would then take a river bath and the family would all be in bed by 8.30. Her father was in the army until the family camp to America. He had fought in WW2, he never spoke about it. 585 Hearing about New York as a child Everybody dreamed about coming to New York. When you were coming from Puerto Rico to New York, you wore a suit - all ages dressed smart. When Ana arrived she wore nice shoes, a dress and a coat because it was snowing in December. Traveling from PR took 8 hours, plane was very loud. No eating on the plane, no TV. But everyone was excited to come to New York. Her father came over first - got a job and apartment. Family lived in the Barrio in 117, once he was settled he started to send of the rest of the family. Ana's mother didn't want to come, and didn't until her father passed away. She was homesick and only stayed for a year after he died. She came and went and then she came back and lived in New York (in Betances) for another 20 years until she passed away. She didn't want to come because she was a hard worker and didn't want to give up her friends. She also didn't like the cold weather. But in the end she came for her children, even though she longed for PR. She was raised by her father when she arrived in New York. Father worked and a lady would take care of them. She was 9 and would be left at home alone, wasn't scared. 828 Feeling scared Ana says she doesn't like to go outside at nighttime, not like how it used to be. Used two go out with sister and get home at 4am.Was mugged one time in an elevator in Betances. She felt bad afterwards because she started to judge the black kids which she knew was unfair. Took her a while to feel conformable getting into the elevator with someone she didn't know. Feels the same way about the train, a lot of mentally unwell people and as a passenger you don't know how to deal with it. 940 First day in New York When she arrived it was freezing (4 degrees). Had never seen snow before. Arrived with her aunt who gave her into trouble for trying to eat the snow. She still does it and it takes her back to 1953. She loves snow, prefers it to summer. Can be out at 6am, but she gets more tired in the summer. Summer in NY is different to PR - PR is hotter, but you don't sweat, less humidity. when she arrived she remembers seeing the big buildings, nothing like the in PR. Everything was small. She loves New York. Loves the Bronx. when she first arrived she lived in Spanish Harlem - her old building is still there and the church she got married in. Sometimes she liked to go and walk around, remembering old friends that passed away and her father. Like going down memory lane. Barrio has changed a lot, for better not worse. Also feels the Bronx has changed for the better. New buildings 1200 How the Bronx has changed - neighbors, technology and church New buildings - in the old buildings they used to have a coal powered furnace in the basement. When she first moved to the Bronx in 1965 after she was married (lives at 620 139 and Cypress) all the buildings had superintendents. Now none of them do. Every complaint used to go to the super, and at Christmas you would give them an envelope with money, same as the mailman - which doesn't happen anymore. Ana still does. She notes that crime in the area also went up. Not as bad now but a few years ago it was very bad - a lot of drugs and gangs. Ana used to work in a dry cleaners on 145 and Willis for 27 years. The drug dealers would bring in their clothes and at Christmas would give Ana lots of gifts and money. She loved her job. People aren't as friendly as they used to be. Church an important place for her, sometimes tthe priest would come out: " ; Are you people still here?" ; - people are in too much of a rush these days. Ana isn't against computers or cell phones because they're an important advancement, but people dont look where they're going when they're walking down the street. She's trying to catch up, but can't turn on a computer. Her grandsons have tried to teach her, but she cant. Her grandson Matthew is very patient with her. When they come to visit her she tells them to put their phone away - if they're here its to talk. Ana feels family values are going down and its impacting the elderly. 1604 School in New York after Ana arrived. Teachers used to wear a suit and tie and shave. They taught sewing, cooking and art. Gym was also taught. Ana loved the blue shorts, the white sneakers (" ; skippies" ; ) and white socks. Had to have your gym clothes to do the class, which was on Tuesdays - weren't Gap or Nike. Used to have assembly, which doesn't happen anymore, her grandchildren don't know what she's talking about when she asks them about it. Her children went to public school, but her grandkids went to private school. Her kids went to Dewitt Clinton. Was unimpressed with the teachers. The children would swear. Was nothing like how it was when she was at school. You had to do your homework. If you did not have your homework, you would be in detention. And if the teacher says you going to be in detention two days, you're going to be in detention two days - unsure if detention is even an option now. 1847 Growing up in El Barrio Was a beautiful neighborhood. Her family knew everyone on the block. Used to live on 117th and knew everyone from Lexington to 3rd Ave. At Christmas, the whole block would be decorated. Everyone would bring food and they would visit other peoples homes, even though the apartments were small. Her family's apartment was really small - the bathtub was in the kitchen but the bathroom was on the third floor and was to be used by the whole building. So 20 families using the same bathroom, but it was still kept clean. Every week someone had two clean the whole building. At Christmas her family used to go to midnight mass, church was packed with everyone in El Barrio from 110th to 116th - mass would finish at 4am. Nowadays they don't do mass at midnight, they do it at 10pm and it's finished by 11.30. There was a lot of beautiful music - didn't have to be religious. At 1/1.30am they would start the Parranda - everyone would bring maracas, bongos, guitars. Parranda would last for 16 days, would go round everyones houses. When you knew people were coming you had to make sure you were prepared - arroz con dulce, coquito, pasteles, alcupurria. Would visit four houses in a night - would start singing until people opened the door, no matter what time. Used to do it at St. Pius until it closed. El Barrio was very close and very religious. In May for lent they would do the rosary around the block - regardless of the weather for 31 days. She misses that 2143 Change in El Barrio Everyone in El Barrio was from PR, because everyone arrived in the 1940s and moved straight to El Barrio. Now El Barrio is a primarily Mexican area, but still a very happy place. When she arrived, it was all Puerto Rican. The Bronx was all Irish and Italian. When Ana first started going to St Pius, the Puerto Ricans weren't allowed in the church, they used to hold a separate Spanish mass int eh basement. After the '65-'67, Puerto Ricans started coming to the Bronx and they left the Barrio. Her family then moved to the Bronx and St Pius starting holding mass upstairs. Grand Concourse was a very affluent area, beautiful to walk through in the summer - very clean. Now a lot of white people are coming back to the Bronx - new buildings on 136th, she saw it on TV. 2302 Ana meeting her husband/ Ana's Father Ana moved to the Bronx after she got married on November 27th 1965. Met her husband on her 18th birthday. Went dancing with her sister and a friend of hers. Her husband was a musician - used to play with Charlie Panelli. When the band were finished playing, he went over to their table and asked Ana to dance. She danced with him and he said, " ; " ; You know what? You're gonna be my wife. You're gonna be the mother of my kids." ; And Ana said, " ; Mister, I don't even know you." ; And he replied, " ; Tomorrow I'm going to your house, I'm going to ask for your hand." ; So they danced some more, and then he danced with her sister who gave him their address. He called by the house the next day - a Sunday - at 3pm. Her father was very strict, Ana didn't even know the boy's name. He introduced himself very formally, father didn't like him - but never liked any of Ana's boyfriends. Father gave permission for the two to start seeing each other but with conditions. Was allowed to see her on Saturdays from 2-4pm, they were allowed to go to the movies but had to take one of Ana's brothers. Never went out alone. When it wast time for him to leave, Ana's father would say " ; two minutes" ; so they knew they had to say goodbye. They dated like this for two years. One day Ana's father was in an accident that left him paralyzed. Ana left school at 13 because her father had gotten sick and needed caring for. One day her father says he wants to speak to Ana's boyfriend (Josue), father says " ; Look I don't feel well. I don't want to leave my daughter without getting married, because if I die I know you never gonna marry my daughter. So, I'm giving you a month to get your life straight." ; He was making good money as a musician and had his own apartment. They did get married, and three months later her father passed away. She was 21 when she was married. 2652 Married Life/Mother and Father to her kids Amy asks if Ana wanted to get married - answers that she wanted to, but also didn't. She used to be close to her family and wasn't prepared for how that would change. She and Josue had a good marriage and three children - but he was still a musician and was never around. When he got sick and passed away the kids were used to him not being around. He and Ana never spent a Christmas, New Year or birthday party together. She couldn't ask him to stop being a musician - he had been doing it since he was 12 and that was his passion. He was good with the kids when he was at home, and they would do things together as a family but that was rare. She was both a mother and father to her kids. 2738 Ana's Father's Work/ Ana leaving school at 13 When her father came to New York, he was one of the first groups of Puerto Ricans to move. He first worked as a tomato picker, which he did for a few years. Then moved to a box making factory - which is where he had the accident that left him paralyzed. He worked there for 20 years, and was able to get his sons into the factory also. Factory was in Teaneck, NJ. Ana left school at 13, she was in the 9th Grade. It hurt her because she loved school. Her father used to tell her, " ; You know what? You come into this world to take care of people." ; because she was cooking and caring for her brothers from the age of 6. and then her mother got sick and Ana took care of her for 20 years until she passed away. She also used to work caring for the elderly, and has a 3 year old at the moment. Sometimes she wishes she had gone back to school. She would still socialize with kids her age after she left school. She has one friend that she still keeps in touch with who lives on 137th. They didn't see each other for many years and bumped into each other when Ana was walking to her mum's house one day. Most of her other friends from school have since passed away. 2946 Why the Bronx after marriage? Ana moved to the Bronx with her husband after they got married because he already had an apartment in the area. He had lived in the Bronx for a long time. She furnished it the way she wanted and did everything. The building is still beautiful, and sometimes she walks by it. Was on the corner of 139th and Cypress. You would walk in the front door into the hallway and then there was the kitchen, then there was another hallway and the living room, and another hallway and the bedroom and the bathroom next door. She can still imagine it the way it is, just like every place she's ever lived. At her home in El Barrio, there was no privacy or doors. 5 of them and they just used to have a bunk bed, there was only one bedroom. Her father would pay $28 a month in rent, the phone bull was $5. Her home in the Bronx was decorated just the way she wanted. She liked to change her drapes every two weeks, and would change her furniture around a lot. In 400 Brook Avenue she had a big apartment on the 19th floor, she could see JFK and LGA from her window. 3203 Death of Ana's husband and the impact on her kids Her husband was a heavy smoker/drinker and died of lung cancer. Would smoke 5 packets of cigarettes a day. And they were cheaper then, now it's $11 a packet so you would maybe think twice. He started smoking when he was 15/16 year old. He was in pain and he would put off going to the hospital. Eventually he went to Lincoln Hospital, Ana was working that day , they did an X-ray and the doctor was very blunt. Chemo was an option, but would only buy him 4/5 months, if he didn't he would probably live for 2. Her two oldest children had moved out already, was just her daughter who was left at home. Remembers one day he was in the room sleeping which was unlike him. He used to call her mom and asked for oatmeal. On that day he told his sons that he had lung cancer. The oldest son took it really hard and lost 15 pounds in the month and a half her husband was alive. Went into hospital and never came out, son would go in at 6am to see his father and then go to work - his wife was not supportive. One day he came home and she was gone. Ana's husband died 29 years ago, and her son hasn't heard from his wife since. They didn't have any children, which Ana sees as a blessing. She doesn't blame his wife for leaving, for a month her son lived in the hospital, wouldn't eat and cried all the time. He couldn't accept death, blamed God. Other son took it in his stride. Husband was suffering in his last week, didn't want to put him on a machine. One day, they did without the family's permission. Wanted to let him go in peace when the time came. He lasted a week with the machine, but in the end it was just the machine breathing for him. Her daughter also took it hard. She had a boyfriend (the son of Ana's friend, also called Ana), they had been going out together since they were 11 - she got pregnant and lived in Ana Allmeda's house for a few years. Child - Mark - got taken away from Ana's daughter because her and her boyfriend were doing drugs. Ana adopted Mark and she went into a rehabilitation program for two years. She studied, got her GED, she got her own apartment, she got her job at Bronx-Lebanon hospital. Lives by herself with her son. She always prays for her kids. Always grateful that despite the hard times she had with them that none of them ever went to prison. Her oldest son calls her every morning - grateful because there are a lot of people who have kids who dont care about them enough. 3763 Birth of Ana's first child/bringing up her kids Ana's first son was born, weighed 9 pounds at old Lincoln Hospital. Her father never got to meet him, but her son and his father were very close. Ana says you never forget your first born child. She had a very bad pregnancy, she was in labor for 48 hours. Was left in a room with a big clock, and every so often a nurse would pop in and check on you. Wouldn't let her husband in, was alone. Says that she forgot about the pain, and her doctor told her to wait a few years before having another child. Her second son, Josh, was born 11 months later. Freddy and Josh look like twins. She then waited three years to have her daughter, Fabiana, who she also was in labor for 48 hours with. They had to give her a blood transfusion, at which point they told her not to have any more kids. But her husband wanted 6 or 7 - so she had a hysterectomy. When they were little, she didn't have anyone to help. She used to work and would take her kids to work with her. Her boss would give her $10 on Saturdays and her kids would help her sweep, help her put the clothes into the machine. Then they would go to school. The school was at 140th. Ana would take them in the mornings and she would start work at 9am. At lunch her boss gave her permission to take lunch off to go spend tome with them and then at 3pm she would pick them up and take them to her job and work there until 6pm. they would do their homework and everything at her job.They would then walk home, Ana would cook and then her husband would come home. 4097 Ana's kids at high school She would take her kids to high school, which they didn't like. One day her son decided to play hooky from school, but she caught him and brought him back while she was out taking change to the bank for her boss. When they got back to the school, the teacher said, " ; Josh, you should know better than that. You should know that, even if you go to Third Avenue, somebody- everybody knows your mom. Everybody knows your Mom, they gonna tell your mom that they saw you." ; He never played hooky again. Ana has always been very projective of her kids, even when they were older. Ana would go to sleep and her kids would sneak out in the middle of the night and Ana would hear them. Fabiana would sneak off to her boyfriend's house and Ana would go round and get her. She did the same for her sons, didn't care what time it was. One time Freddy was caught by the police hanging out with som e friends in front of a Catholic school where he had been warned by the police not to loiter before. Police called her from the 40th precinct and she said she didn't have a son named Fernando Soler. They tried calling her again and she hung up. Eventually they get a hold of her and ask, " ; This is your child, right?" ; to which she replies that he is but she was upset with him because he knew better than to behave like that. She never had any problems with him again. 4455 Ana's Grandson Ana's father was very strict. Used to tell them if they wanted to smoke they had to pay for the cigarette themselves. Would make them kneel on rice on the ground for 20 mins and give them 5 belts in their back depending on what they did. Ana wasn't like that with her kids, but it was hard. She doesn't like yelling, and rarely swears. She's not a nagger but if you do something wrong she'll tell you. She's the same way with her grandchildren. Her grandson, Matthew, was seen smoking by a lady Ana knew. Ana called him and he didn't deny it but promised not to do it again. His mother is paying for him to go to a private school that costs $750, he has a scholarship so she only pays $400. But he has to keep his grades up or he'll lose his scholarship. Heloves basketball, but doesn't play after school because he goes to work at the Bronx Zoo. He works weekends, his first paycheck he bought his mum a pair of shoes and started taking responsibility for his phone bill. He works from 8am to 6pm, his mum has two jobs to keep paying for his school, rent and ConEd. She works in a hospital during the week and at a laundry at the weekends. Matthew picks her up from work because its dangerous to be in the place when there's money and she's the only one there. 5007 Ana first arriving in Mott Haven When she came to the Barrio, she found it hard because she didn't know any English - when she moved to the Bronx she already knew the language. She used to work in Willow where there were lots of factories, she didn't used to go to church as much and kept herself to herself. She went once or twice to the church in the basement, but by the time she was going most of the Irish and Italians had already left the area. Ana doesn't know where they went to. Then the Puerto Ricans and then the Dominicans started to arrive. Nowadays there are less people from PR, they've all moved to Florida. In PR there's a big Dominican and Chinese community. Now in Mott Haven there's a growing population of people from Africa. Notes that years ago to get social housing you had to be married and it was very strict to get into the projects, now it's not really. In the building where Ana lives, she's the only Puerto Rican on her floor, and in the whole building there's maybe five. Ana jokes the Irish and Italians left because they were scare of the Puerto Ricans and how rowdy they were. The church was kept nice, was a very rich church. But when they left the church went into decline because the new people in the area were poorer and didn't have the money to keep it up. Ana attended St Pius, her son was baptized in St. Lukes. 5382 Ana's job in the Laundromat. Ana's husband didn't want her to work, but she liked to work. She couldn't for a few years because of the kids, but once she had them he didn't want her working. She got really fat and her hair was long - looked 80 years old. One day she woke up and went to the cleaners and the boss offered her a job. She accepted and her husband was really angry when she told him - from that point on their marriage wasn't the same because he was very much the jealous type. He used to pick her up from church - never physically abusive, but mentally was. He tried to do the same with the kids. Once she started working, she cut her hair and started losing weight. She did the same things- looking after him, the house, the kids- but at lease she was working and having her own money. She is independent and never remarried because she likes being on her own and being able to do what she wants, when she wants. She's always busy and doesn't like to be bossed around. 5608 St Pius St Pius was like a family. When Ana was mugged in the elevator of her building the other parishioners clubbed together to raise $700 for her - which is how much had been stollen off her in the elevator. Would do collections for peoples funerals and burials. The priests were good and kind, they had a youth group for the kids and would do a retreat up to Haverstraw for three days. On Sundays they would play basketball and pingpong, would be there all day until night time. church used to have to rent three buses to take everyone, 200-300 people. On Sundays now she goes to St. Regis. The church closed because people went paying what was needed to keep the church open. People in the area live on a fixed income and didn't have the money to spare. Once people have paid rent and bills there isn't much left over for giving to a church. St Roch also closed. A lot of schools as well have closed because of charter schools. Ana's kids went to PS 40 at 140th and Brook. 6084 Abandoned buildings in Mott Haven/The Laundromat In the 80s people started moving away. There were more stores on 3rd avenue, a lot of stores have since closed because bigger stores like Marshalls opened. Ana used to love shopping on Alexander. There was a good shoe store, and the cleaners where Ana used to work. Ana's boss's father started it until her boss - Lenny - took over. Ana worked there for 27 years. Used to rent tuxedos, big business. Then Lenny got sick and he sold the business to a Korean man. Ana feels he brought the business down and she worked for him for 10 years. When she worked with Lenny he used to tell her that the customer is always right, to talk to people, to be nice. People had a lot of affection for her, called her " ; miss cleaning lady" ; - feels that that was why the business made so much money. When her Korean boss took over he was more strict about money than Lenny who would let people pay $2.25 for a pair of pants that would have been $2.50. No credit. When Lenny was there the cleaners was never held up, but once the Korean boss took over in one year the shop was held up seven times.They would hold a gun to Ana, her boss would hide in the back - she started to not like her job but didn't want to leave her boss hanging. Ana used to do most of the work. One Friday at 1.30, three men came into the shop - one of them took out a gun and told Ana to open the register. Her boss and his wife locked themselves in the bathroom. She gives them the $60 in the register, but they wanted more - so they took her earrings and her ring and they left. She tried to quit but her boss wouldn't let her, she felt like she had no security. Boss didn't want her to report, she left the job and never came back. The next day, the cleaners was held up again but this time the boss's wife was at the front and she didn't know English. She wasn't able to do want they wanted so they punched her in the face, knocked her to the ground and stole the money from the register. Her boss then later called her from the hospital and begged Ana to come back to work. She didn't. A year after that happened, another hold up happened and they closed the cleaner - boss lost a lot of money. Ana feels bad but he wasn't a business man, feels that in the Bronx you have to make more of an effort to be nice to people. She used to love working for Lenny, and has loved working all her life. 6693 Lenny the Cleaner The hold ups started the year Lenny left the cleaners - in 1990. The first year wasn't so bad. Lenny was more flexible with customers and credit, the Korean boss wasn't because for him the business came first - which is where the problem came from because if you aren't nice to people then they're going to get you back. The last hold up was 2007-8, after that Ana started a job caring for the elderly. Lenny was Jewish and Puerto Rican. Everybody loved him, he died in 2016. Korean owner never wanted to report the robberies, even though they went on for 10 years. In that time there was maybe 15, and sometimes customers were in the cleaners and they would have their money stolen too. Ana doesn't know why he chose not to report it. Afterwards he would always say " ; god bless you" ; to Ana who had been at the front on her own. Ana felt he was very fanatic in his religion. Wasn't a good/nice boss. 6961 Ana Alameda Ana Soler met Ana Alameda through AA's husband. AA's kids and AS's kids would play basketball together when they were small. Both Ana's met in the park and they didn't hit it off right away. Started becoming closer when Mark - the grandson they share - was born. Fabiana, AS's daughter, lived with AA. They started taking vacations together, went to Florida 20 times. Did a lot of things with their grandsons. AA is very outgoing, never gets tired. They are very different - AS isn't afraid to tell people when they are doing something wrong, but AA is. AS has more rules in her house than AA. When AS's husband was still alive, he didn't want the kids doing chores - Ana disagreed. Remembered her own upbringing and how she had to clean everything with her bothers. If it wasn't done right you would have to do it again. Still remembers that time fondly. A few years ago they went down to PR to visit Ana's sister who was sick, the whole family sat and reminisced about things their father used to do and say. Ana tells some funny stories about her upbringing - taking turns taking a bath and Carlo having to go back to the store 10 times to buy the correct tomato sauce. All the kids had nicknames. Ana's was Nini. AS and AA like to go for walks, shopping and eating in restaurants. AS loves the casino, never spends more than $75. AS likes to visit the sick on Mondays, and after church goes to the nursing homes. On mothers day she takes flowers to the ladies - remembers how hard it was when her mother was in a nursing home. She would visit 7 days a week from 8am to 7pm- used to give her lunch, dinner, help her to bed. Ana has always juggled multiple things - caring for her home, her family, taking her kids to pay baseball. She was always present. Used to go to Central Park, Yankee Stadium and Randalls island as a family. Doesn't know how people afford it now, very expensive - ticket cost, foam fingers etc. Tells the story of a friend of hers who some people tried to mug but she hid her money in her bra so they didn't find it. A lot of older people feel isolated, especially if their children live in other states or just dont come to visit. A lot of lonely kids as well, and bringing up kids is more expensive now - kids outgrow clothes, hand-me-downs. 8077 Ana as a Foster Parent Ana has fostered 12 children over the years, the first two she had for 4 years. The best thing she's ever done. Took some time off from fostering and then restarted for the little girl who she is currently looking after who was taken out of her home because there were drugs being used - there was a raid in the middle of the night. Seven children were taken from the house - Ana was asked to take care of two for a few days, even though her license had expired. She couldn't take two, but took one, and helped find homes for the other children. By 8pm, everyone had a home. Child became very attached to Ana and has lived with her for a year now. Ana knows there are a lot of kids who need help, and that a lot are mistreated in the foster system. Her first foster child came to her after experiencing a lot of abuse, he is now with another parent but has been moved around a lot. Ana thinks its a shame because he was really bright but the moving around disrupted him. Isn't able to see his mother because she's using drugs. Ana cant adopt because she's 75, not fair on the child to adopt her when Ana doesn't know where she'll be in 10 years. 8585 White people coming back to Mott Haven Ana says she's noticed a lot of white people moving back into the area - with big dogs, friendly, say good morning, they aren't afraid. Ana hopes they move into the new building, doesnt think it will make things harder for poorer people in the area. Says a lot of people get on in the neighborhood regardless of race/background. Loves the area. When she first arrived the Irish/Italians who lived in the area weren't friendly, but now the newer white people are a lot nicer. Ana says it wasn't that the old Irish/Italians weren't nice, they just ignored people that weren't part of their own community. Ana tells the story of being in Florida with her grandson and talking with a white family and them being surprised and put off that she was from the South Bronx. She would see them around the resort and they never looked at her again. she doesn't feel ashamed to be from the south Bronx, or to say she's from PR. Doesn't like it when people misrepresent their upbringing, still sees herself as poor. First time she was in a car she was 9, didn't see a TV until she was older. 9019 Death of Ana's Father Ana's father was a beautiful singer, he wasn't abusive but would punish them. Ana and siblings respected their father, loved him more than her mother. When Ana had her first period it was her father she told, he taught her to cook and do everything. He was funny. He was loved by a lot of people, when he died the funeral director said he had never seen so many people at a wake in 52 years. 52 cars went to the cemetery, he was burried in Long island because he was a veteran. He was someone who could be relied on - fed you when you were hungry. Her brothers look up to him, none of them ever got a divorce. Thinks that her nephews have all turned out so well because of what Ana's father taught her and her bothers. Her father died with nothing because he gave everything away. Would send them to PR to visit their mother. Didn't want to die in a hospital, he died at home. Ana says she wasn't rich when she was young, and she won't be rich now - but she has enough to live and that's it. Her mother lived in Mitchell Housing. She has a lot of good memories, doesn't talk about gentrification with her friends. Amy Starecheski: --introduction. Let' ; s see what I can hear. Oh, do you think it would bother your fish if you turned the filter off for a little bit? Ana Soler: No. Amy Starecheski: While we' ; re doing this? Ana Soler: Matthew. Come here a minute. (Spanish). Matthew: Do you want me to unplug it? Ana Soler: Yeah, unplug it. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m using these really sensitive microphones and I can tell that the noise of the-- Ana Soler: No (Spanish) That you could--do you see that red button there? Matthew: Yeah I can turn it off. Ana Soler: Yeah. Turn it off. Thank you. Matthew: I can take this? Ana Soler: Yeah. You could take it. Matthew: Alright I' ; ll see you tomorrow. Ana Soler: You going to Grandma? Matthew: No. I' ; m going to be in the park in the back. Ana Soler: All right be careful out there. Matthew: Have a nice day. Amy Starecheski: It' ; s nice to meet you. That' ; s great. OK. So my name' ; s Amy Starecheski. This is June 13th, 2018 and this interview is for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. So, can you start off by just telling me your--say your name and where and when you were born. And then tell me a little bit about your childhood, where you came from, what your family was like, stuff like that, talk as much as you want. I' ; ll jump in and ask questions if you get stuck. Ana Soler: Ok. I could start? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Go for it. Ana Soler: Alright. My name is Ana Soler. And I was born June 5th, 1943. I just had a birthday. 75. I was born in Puerto Rico. And I had a beautiful childhood in Puerto Rico. We--You-- Amy Starecheski: Go, go. Yeah. Ana Soler: We didn' ; t have no TV. We did not have any refrigerator. We did not have any toilet like over here. We used to bathe in the river. We used to iron. It was the iron that you had to put the coal in and you have to blow on it. But it was beautiful. By the age of six, I was already cooking. My mother had to work. My father was in the Army. She had to work and we had to take care of ourselves. We used to go to school, barefoot. And then when we got to school then we were allowed to put our shoes (laughs). That' ; s true. That' ; s not--that' ; s true. A lot of people come here and they forget their background, where they come from. You know and I will never forget where I came from. And I used to love where I used to live. And it was 5 of us brothers. And we used to all take care of ourselves. Our mother, she used to leave the house at 4:00 in the morning. And she would be back at nighttime. There was no cars, they had to walk to the job. So it was hard. And the school where we used to go, it was a very, very, very long walk. But you see everybody, all the kids going to school, happy. You know, we had, I had no complaint. I love--we used to play dominoes. We used to have so many nice games not like- And not like now. Kids nowadays, they don' ; t know what it is not to have a lot of clothes. Maybe, you know, some--I' ; ve always been a picky eater. And we always used to eat the same thing. Sometimes for breakfast, for lunch it' ; s called pana [breadfruit]. The color is--I used to hate it. But my mom was, you know you used to put fish in it. She, anything she find she would just to make it exciting but, still it was bad, no matter (laughs). Amy Starecheski: What was it made out of? Ana Soler: Pana, It' ; s like it' ; s like a fruit. But you- A lot of people do it with catfish and but--nowaday I see in the supermarket and my skin (laughs) my hair stand up I could-- people go to Puerto Rico and that' ; s what they want to eat. Everybody that goes to PR, " ; Bring me a pana!" ; And I said, me bring you a pana? That' ; s what they--everybody that goes from here to PR. I mean I guess we all long for that. You know, everybody, in their own way. So but I don' ; t complain. I love my childhood. And I live in Puerto Rico until I was nine years old. Then I- went to school to the third grade. And then I came here. I came here when I was nine years old. But then I went back a couple of years after. And then there was, then there was car. There was TV because the TV came around in 1950, but not in my house. We never had a TV. Not in Puerto Rico, we never had a TV. So when I got here I mean, I saw a refrigerator for the first time. I saw a toilet for the first time. And the funny, the funny thing when I came here was, maybe a lot of people don' ; t remember, but the apartment, they used to be like a subway. They weren' ; t divided like they are now. And the bathtub was in the kitchen. So my father used to put a, like a curtain around. So, and then the families started growing, instead of five brothers there was seven brothers. But I don' ; t know.mWe had a beautiful childhood. My brothers, we very, very close. It' ; s a close, you know, very close family. We get in touch and see each other, we call each other. So. It' ; s good. It was good. It' ; s still a good life. Amy Starecheski: Can you describe your house in Puerto Rico for me? Ana Soler: My house in Puerto Rico. There was a hurricane that my grandmother died in. In the hurricane my grandmother died. And it took our house. The flood took a lot. And not only our, but everybody' ; s. So for about about a year and a half we live--I didn' ; t because I was already here but my mom and my--the rest of my brothers they used to live in tent. Like when you go camping. They live like that for about a year and a half. And then the government built houses and that' ; s how my mother has her first house. That was in I think 1959. But that same year my grandmother died, in the same year. But. Amy Starecheski: What kind of work did your mom do? Ana Soler: My mom worked in a factory. They made cigars. And she came home smelling. Oh my God. Terrible, terrible. Yeah. They used to--it was like that--I don' ; t know if you ever seen it. It was a ball of the tobacco and they have to open it and they have to spray and they have to--' ; cause we used to go once in a while. She would take us to, you know and that I appreciate about my mom and my dad. They taught us, since we were very young, the responsibilities of working. Very young, very. When I was 6 years old, I was already cooking. We took turns. It was only two sisters and the other were boys so we took turns cooking, cleaning the house, ironing. My mother didn' ; t have time. My mother worked from six in the morning to 8:00 at night. So we had to cook, we had to take care of ourselves and make sure that when she got home she had something to eat. Because she used to eat, go to the river take a bath, and then we were in bed by 8:30 everybody was sleeping. But yeah, but that was a job. My father was in the army and then he came over here. Once he left, once he left the army, yes. Amy Starecheski: Do you know what he did in the army? Ana Soler: No. Because he went to World War II. And I don' ; t think he, he ever wanted to talk about. But he was a very handsome, very handsome, yes. Amy Starecheski: When you were a kid do you remember hearing people talking about New York? Ana Soler: Yes. Everybody dream. Everybody. And then when people were coming it' ; s not like now that you go traveling with sneakers, shorts. No, no, no way. When you were coming from Puerto Rico to New York, you wore a suit. I used to wear a suit, nice hat. The ladies, even the little kids, dressed, nice shoes, hat. A bag. You used to come, like, the first time I put on nice shoes, beautiful dress and a coat because I came in December. It was snowing like--and then the traveling, it wasn' ; t like now. It was eight hours. Eight hours on that plane and it wasn' ; t fancy plane like that. There was--they used to make noise. There was no eating, there was no eating. You was 8 hours sitting there, not eating, no TV, no doing nothing. Nothing. Yes. But you were excited. You were excited to come to New York. Because my father came first. My father came, he got a job, he got the apartment. We used to live in the Barrio in 117th. And then, you know when he settled, then, he started sending for all of us. And my mom, she didn' ; t want to come. No. My mom, she didn' ; t come. Amy Starecheski: She never came? Ana Soler: My mother came here when my father passed away. And then she stood for about, for about a year. And she always was homesick, you know. So then we sent her back and she was in and out, then, at the end, then she came back and she stay here for about 20 years. She lived in that building there for 20 years. And then she passed away, yeah. Amy Starecheski: In Betances? Ana Soler: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Why didn' ; t she want to come? Ana Soler: Because my mom, she was a worker. My mom. And she has so many friends. And you know, it' ; s a different, different life. And the first time she came here, I mean it was so cold. And she didn' ; t like it. Even though the years that she stood here, she did it mainly for us. But she was happy. My mom wasn' ; t. I know that. We used to send her to Puerto Rico every year. She used to go every year to Puerto Rico, and she would stay a month, two months. But then she had nobody there. That was--we were all here. So you know she had no other choice but to come back, but she longed for that Puerto Rico. Amy Starecheski: Who took care of you when you first came here? Ana Soler: My father. My father was our father and our mom. Yeah. I Was 9 years old, my youngest brother was 6. He was 6 years old. Yeah. And he worked and there was a lady that would take care of us. And it wasn' ; t like, it wasn' ; t a like now, you could you leave your kids in the house. When we used to live on 117th, you leave the kids in the house, nothing would happen. They will go to school, you would go to school. And you know there wasn' ; t like, you wasn' ; t scared. Now, you know sometime I get mad at myself because there' ; s something that I have to do outside at nighttime and like I don' ; t, I don' ; t really want to go outside. After a certain hour. And not before, before we used to go- me and my sister, we used to go dancing. We used to come home 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. We would take the train. And there was no problem. But nowadays it' ; s very different. Amy Starecheski: What are you afraid of now? Ana Soler: Hm? Amy Starecheski: What are you afraid of, now? Ana Soler: It' ; s, it' ; s not that I' ; m, it' ; s not that I' ; m afraid but like when you' ; re coming home, you know, I was mugged one time in the elevator. Not here, in Betances. And, I feel bad because then I started judging all Black kids. Like they were and I' ; m not all, not all Puerto Rican are good, not a Puerto Ricans are bad, not all Blacks are bad. And it took me quite a while to get into the elevator with somebody that I didn' ; t know. Now, I do. Now, you know, I don' ; t. But still it-- And the train? It' ; s too many. I took a train--I was in a training yesterday about mental health. And it was so- it was very exciting. It was very, very--and it' ; s true there' ; s a lot of people out there that are, you know mentally ill and you know how to deal- You don' ; t know how to deal with them. And that' ; s why so many things are happening. But otherwise I' ; m happy, I don' ; t mind--I go out. Right now I just came from church, I had a meeting. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: I want to go back. Can you tell me about the first day that you got here? Like you' ; re on the plane, the plane lands, just like walk me through what happened. Ana Soler: When I got here it was freezing. The temperature was about four degrees. And I never seen snow. I never--I saw that snow, I went--I went crazy. I started putting the snow in my face. I put the snow in my arm (laughs). And I came with my aunt. My aunt was the one that brought--she used to go pick us up because my father couldn' ; t do it. She said, " ; what are you doing? You' ; re not supposed to do that!" ; And ever since, and let me tell you, ever since that time, every time that it snows, I do the same thing, I put--and people--the kids say, " ; grandma, why are you doing that?" ; And I say you know it brings me back to 1953 when I got here. So every time there' ; s a snow, I love snow. People complain about it. I love the snow. And I love winter. Summer I' ; m not too crazy about. I' ; m not too. But winter I could go anywhere. I' ; m, 6:00 in the morning I' ; m out. Summer, sometimes I get a little tired. And summer like, here it' ; s not like Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is really hot. But you don' ; t sweat. There' ; s not that humidity out there. So it' ; s better than over here. Ana Soler: But when I came here, oh, I mean I saw all those big buildings. There was no building in Puerto Rico. Everything was small houses. I' ; d look. I was a jibara. Like what they call jibara? I was. I was amazed by--and still am. Nighttime I--I look out the window, and, I tell you I love- I love New York. I mean I' ; m--Puerto Rico. I go to Puerto Rico almost every year. But I love New York. I would not change. I would not change Puerto Rico for Florida or nothing, no other place. Especially the Bronx, the Bronx. I love the Bronx. I came to live here, when I first came, I lived in Manhattan in Spanish Harlem. I still go. My building is still, I say my building, but it' ; s still there. The church I went to, the church I got married. Once in a while I like to go there, and I walk around, I remember old friends that have passed away. My dad passed away in that building. You know and it' ; s going memory lane. It' ; s always, it' ; s always good to to remember where you come from. And you you know, the thing, Manhattan. The Barrio has changed a lot too, from when I came to now, it has changed. And it has changed for the better, not for the worst. The Bronx either, the Bronx has changed for the better, for for the better, yes. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me more about how it' ; s changed? Ana Soler: Well, for once, at this--(phone ringing) Amy Starecheski: Do you want me to pause? Ana Soler: One minute. Amy Starecheski: Sure. Ana Soler: Because I' ; m waiting for--. Amy Starecheski: You got it? [phone call] Ana Soler: Sorry about this. Amy Starecheski: No, no, not at all. That just reminded me to turn my phone off too. Ana Soler: That was one of my kids. I tell them I' ; m not available, they keep calling. They call me every day. Amy Starecheski: (Laughs) That' ; s good, a lot of people wish their kids would call them more. OK. So you were saying that you like to go back and I asked if you could tell me more about how--I guess how both El Barrio and the Bronx have changed. Ana Soler: The Bronx has changed. New buildings that they building from what it--from before the old building, you know, they have their furnace in the bottom of the old buildings. They used to put coal. And I remember in--I used to, when I first moved to the Bronx, I moved here 1965, November 27 that' ; s when I got married and I came to live in 139 and Cypress. Yes. Six twenty. I remember like yesterday. Yeah, so the buildings were, they had supers. Now there' ; s not no super in the building. They had the super. Every complaint you had to you had to go to the super. And Christmas, you used to give them an envelope with money, the mailman--you don' ; t do that anymore. I miss--I still do and the people that works here, they nice kid, you know. So in Christmas I always give them something. But I remember years ago it was like a must. That, and that has changed a lot. That has really changed. Ana Soler: And crime. Now it' ; s--it' ; s not that much. Like years ago, years ago there was a lot of gangs, a lot--a lot of drugs. Drug is still around. I mean it haven' ; t gone nowhere. It' ; s still in the South Bronx. But it' ; s everywhere. But like years ago there used to be so many killing. [Unclear] I mean I used to work--I used to work in 145 and Willis in a cleaner. I worked there for 27 years. And you see all those drug dealer that would bring their clothes. But, they were drug dealer, I mean big time. But they, in Christmas, they used to come, they used to shower me with gifts, money. I used to, I like working with the public, I mean I love that job. I love it. And you know, now, like, I' ; m used to saying, I get in the elevator, I' ; m used to saying good morning to everybody. But now people like, sometimes they look at you like this--you know. Years ago, everybody, Good morning, Happy New Year, Merry Christmas. You don' ; t see that now. I haven' ; t seen it. You know, maybe there' ; s--but. So it' ; s, for one it has changed for the better because we' ; ve got better buildings. But like we going--instead of going forward we going backwards. They' ; re--the people are not--are not that friendly. They' ; re not that friendly like they used to be years ago. That--the one thing that--that I miss. I really miss that. That closeness. Even in the church. Even the church, you know. We used to go to church, we used to be in the mass, choir. But once we got outside you' ; ll see the group hugging, talking and we used to stay outside an hour or two after mass. Sometimes the priest would come out: " ; Are you people still here?" ; Because that' ; s how we used to be. Now like everybody comes out of church and--we are living like in such a rush. We rush for everything. We rush to get in the bus, we rush to go in the train, we rush to get home, and you know and--you know and I say sometime, you gotta slow down. Sometime you know you gotta sit down and talk to people. And I' ; m no saint. I am not against computers, I am not against cell phone, no. You need the advance. But that has taken away family talking. People--now you see everybody in the street with the phone. You know they--if you are not careful they will knock you down. So in that way it has changed. But in another way you know you have to go with the punches. You have to try to catch up to them. I mean, ask the elderly, it' ; s very difficult, young people, no. Young people they catch--but, like, I don' ; t even know how to turn on a computer. I don' ; t. And Mark and Matthew and Freddy, they all have tried. I bought a laptop, I gave it to Matthew because--I mean I couldn' ; t. And he would--this kid, he' ; s very patient with me. He' ; s very--I couldn' ; t get it. I just couldn' ; t get it. The telephone that you---(pause) Mark said " ; Grandma!" ; I can' ; t. You know, it' ; s not that I don' ; t try, but I guess my mind don' ; t want like--and when they come here, you know, I tell them right away. If they come here, put your phone away. If you' ; re here it' ; s to talk. You know. But it' ; s hard on them. Family values it' ; s, it' ; s going down. It' ; s going and us elderly, you know. I mean it hurts me, it hurts me to see, to see that going on. Amy Starecheski: I want to go back a little bit. Can you tell me what school was like when you got here? Ana Soler: Hm? Amy Starecheski: You were 9 when you came. What was school like? Ana Soler: The teachers, they used to wear suit and tie. Oh yes. Shave. It was so respectful. You went to school and they would teach and they had--that they don' ; t have anymore--the sewing. They had sewing, they had cooking class, they had art. They had gym, that you used to put--I love--blue, blue shorts, the whole piece, blue. And it have to be blue. White sneaker--the skippies, they used to call skippies--with the white sock. You had to have your gym suit. And I remember it was on a Tuesday. You couldn' ; t--you have to wear it. And I mean it wasn' ; t fancy like now, you have to wear Gap, everything has to be from the Gap, the sneakers got to be Nike' ; s or, no. We used to wear skippies for everything. Then when there was assembly, they don' ; t do that. I don' ; t know if you remember that, but there used to be assembly. You had to go with your navy blue skirt down to here. White sock, shoes. Your white shirt. And a nice little bun. That' ; s how it used to be. And teachers, the ladies they used to dress so beautiful. They were so respectful. You go into your classroom. You salute the flag. They don' ; t do that anymore. You used to have assembly. Every Friday there was assembly. If I asked one of my grandkid, " ; Do you have assembly?" ; They don' ; t even know what I' ; m talking about. They don' ; t get it. I' ; m talking about. Gym, they go like whatever they have on that' ; s it. And it' ; s not even gym because they take you outside. Gym, when we were going to school, it was in the gym. And I tell you I used to love especially sewing and cooking, baking. Baking cake, baking cookies. And all that is gone down the drain. Now, I go to schools and I' ; m shocked. When my kids were, because my kids, they went to public school. My grandkids, they had gone to private school. But my kids, I couldn' ; t afford it. I couldn' ; t afford. My kids went to public school. And one time I went to--they graduated from Dewitt Clinton. And I saw those teachers, the way they were. And the way the kids carry on, the way they curse. I mean, I was shocked. I said this is nothing like I used to. Nothing like when I went to school. And they used to teach you. Reading, math, everything--with homework. You had to do your homework. If you did not have your homework, you would be in detention. And if the teacher says you going to be in detention two days, you' ; re going to be in detention two days. Now I don' ; t even know. I don' ; t even know now if they give detention or not. Ana Soler: Did you go to public school or Catholic school? Ana Soler: No, I want to public school. We all went to public school. Amy Starecheski: And who else was living around you in El Barrio when you came? What was the neighborhood like? Ana Soler: Beautiful. We know everybody in there in the block. We used to live in 117th. From Lexington to 3rd Avenue, I mean, in Christmas--Christmas you you would not forget those Christmas. Everybody, we used to adorn the whole block, the whole block. Everybody. Everybody would bring in food. And we would do it in different houses. And the apartment wasn' ; t this big. Our apartment was so tiny. And, the bathroom, the bathtub was in the kitchen, but the bathroom was in the third floor and it was for the whole building. It was for everybody that live in the building. So if there were 20 families, everybody, we use the same, but they used to keep it clean! Every week, one person had to clean the whole building. They had to clean the--you know, we assign. Because it was like family. For Christmas, everybody. We used to go to midnight mass. The church was packed because everybody from the barrio from 110th to 116th, it was the church like that that I used to go. Midnight Mass was at twelve o' ; clock midnight. And it would finish at 4:00 in the morning but they' ; d be singing. Yes. Yes. But I mean, that' ; s why I said now, I sometimes feel so sad on Christmas. Because they do that, they still do the mass, but they don' ; t do it at midnight. Here, they do it at 10:00, and by 11:30, it' ; s finished. And they sing the Christmas carol and, but over there I mean it was, it was a lot of beautiful music. It didn' ; t have to be the religious. Yes, they would sing the the religious, but after a while you start--they used to call it parranda. The parranda you used to bring maracas, bongos, guitar. And after the mass was finished, it will be finished by 1:00, 1:30, then we would start the parranda. And when we finish we used to go to different home. They used to go to my house maybe five o' ; clock in the morning. Two o' ; clock in the morning, and the parranda would last for 16 days. Oh yeah. I used to, yeah. 16 days. They used to--and they didn' ; t tell you, we' ; re going to come to your home tonight, but like, everybody knew. We were prepared. We had the coquito, we had the arroz con dulce, we had, everything. But the coquito was--you have tasted coquito? Pasteles, alcupurria, all that. All that we used to have. And it, we usually, we used to do four houses a night. Yeah we would start about 7:30 and we will finish by 3:00 in the morning. And even little kids, you should see, even little kids would go. And we would not knock the door. We would start signing in the door (laughs). And when the people heard, they would open the door. And when the people heard, they would open the door, no matter what time. And they--and it wasn' ; t like--sometimes there was 30, 40, 50, 60 people. Yeah. That- they don' ; t do that anymore. No. We also do in St Pius. Once St Pius closed, they don' ; t do anymore. No. My barrio--I remember--it was very close and it was very religious. From May for octove, we used to do the rosary around the block. It didn' ; t matter that it was snowing, that it was 10 degrees, that it was raining, for 31 days--they used to. And there was a lot of people and we had candles, they had the rosary, you know those are the thing that--you miss, you miss that. Amy Starecheski: I' ; m going to move your microphone up a little bit. Is that okay? It' ; s just rubbing on part of your shirt. Is that okay? Ana Soler: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Was it mostly all Puerto Ricans living around there? Like, the people you hung out with, were they often from Puerto Rico? Ana Soler: Everybody was Puerto Rican and you know the Puerto Rican came here in the 40s and everybody came to live in the barrio. Everybody was from the barrio. Now the barrio, it' ; s Mexican. You go there it' ; s all Mexican. But it' ; s still a very happy place, it' ; s still. But when we came, it was all Puerto Rican, it wasn' ; t Dominican, it was--and like, over here, the Bronx, there was only the Irish. A lot of Irish people. And when I first started going to church in St Pius, the Puerto Ricans were not allowed up in the Church. They used to make the Puerto Rican--we had the mass--Spanish Mass, in the basement of the church, and that was a very, very rich church. But it was all Irish. And there wasn' ; t that many Puerto Ricans. After the ' ; 65-' ; 67, then Puerto Ricans started coming to the Bronx and they left the barrio and we came here to the Bronx. And then they started doing the mass upstairs. But it was--and it was--everything was Irish, Irish and Italian. There was a lot of Italian. And Jewish around here too. So, the Grand Concourse, Grand Concourse now is. But that was the rich, that was only for rich people. It was beautiful. You used to walk down Grand Concourse and it was heaven. It was so clean. And you see all that ladies and men sitting in summer. They would sit, they would take their chairs and they would sit there. You know. And it was nice. It was nice. But, you don' ; t see nobody. You don' ; t see no, no. But now, there' ; s a lot of white people coming to the Bronx. Because I see a lot of--on 136th. Those building over there. They even make a rest--I didn' ; t even know they had a bar restaurant. I saw it on TV. So. Amy Starecheski: And you moved to the Bronx after you got married. In 1965, November 27. Amy Starecheski: How did you meet your husband? Ana Soler: I met my husband when I was on my 18th birthday. We went dancing, my sister and a friend of her. And my husband was a musician. He used to play with Charlie Panelli. Oh yeah he' ; d play! So he was playing in the band. And he was playing, and then when they finished their time, he came over to our table and he asked me to dance. And, yeah, I went to dance with him and he said, " ; You know what? You' ; re going to be--you' ; re gonna be my wife. You' ; re gonna be the mother of my kids." ; And I said, " ; Mister, I don' ; t even know you." ; And he says, " ; Tomorrow I' ; m going to your house, I' ; m going to ask for your hand." ; And I said, " ; First of all you don' ; t even know my name. And, you know, you don' ; t even know where I live." ; He said, " ; Don' ; t worry, I will find out." ; So we dance a couple of dances and then he went with my sister, he started dancing with my sister. And my sister gave him the address. And he says, " ; Tomorrow I will be in your house at 3:00 in the afternoon." ; But you know, I forgot about that. Next day was Sunday. A man knocked on my door at 3:00 in the afternoon. [Long pause] Ana Soler: And when my sister opened the door she said, " ; Ana, there' ; s somebody looking for you." ; My father was very strict. My father--ooh! And I didn' ; t even know his name. I didn' ; t even know his name. So, he--my father said, " ; Who is that man?!" ; I said, " ; We met him last night in the dance." ; Ana Soler: So he said, " ; May I come in?" ; My father goes, " ; Okay." ; and he says, " ; I met your daughter last night, and I like your daughter, and I would like to start seeing your daughter." ; And my father asked me and I said, " ; Well you know any boyfriend that I used to have my father never liked none of my boyfriends--none my boyfriends! So he didn' ; t like him either. But he was very consistent. He--my father says, " ; OK, you' ; re gonna come to the house on Saturday afternoon. You' ; re gonna be here from 2:00 to 4:00. And if you are going to the movies, you got to take one of the kids--one of my brothers. We never went out alone. And my father would sit there and my boyfriend would sit there and I would--we were--we weren' ; t allowed to--then when it was time for him to go, my father would say, " ; two minutes." ; Two minutes to say goodbye! And my father [laughs] but I love my father yeah. And we would--we went out for two years. Ana Soler: And then one day, my father, my father had an accident at his job. He was paralyzed. And that' ; s why he was so attached to me because I' ; d left school when I was 13 because my father got sick. My brothers were younger. And there wasn' ; t no home attendant. There was nothing. So somebody had to take of my father. So I had to leave. My sister said, " ; Not me!" ; My sister was older. She would not leave school, no. She didn' ; t. " ; Not me!" ; So then, I left school to take care of my father. I used to bathe my father. I used to shave my father. I used to do everything. With my brothers too. That' ; s why my brothers said that I' ; m their mom. My brothers, they very good to me because they say, you know, they remember that I took care of my father, I took care of my brothers, I took care of my mom. Ana Soler: So then one day my father says, " ; I want to talk to Josue." ; That was my husband' ; s name. " ; I want to talk to Josue." ; So they went into the room, and my father said, " ; Look I don' ; t feel well. I don' ; t want to leave my daughter without getting married, because if I die I know you never gonna marry my daughter. So, I' ; m giving you a month to get your life straight." ; He had his apartment. He used to make good money. " ; I' ; m giving you a month to get all your papers ready. Get everything ready and to marry my daughter." ; And he say, " ; Yeah, okay, no problem." ; And we did get married. And My father, three months after, my father died. My father died in the house in the sleep. So, I guess he knew that. And that' ; s how I got married otherwise I wouldn' ; t. I was 21, I was 21. That' ; s--that' ; s him over there. Amy Starecheski: Oh my gosh! Is that you? Ana Soler: Yeah! I was 21 years old there! Amy Starecheski: Is that a painting? Ana Soler: Yes. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s a beautiful--I' ; m just--for the tape it' ; s a beautiful painting. I' ; ll take a picture of it if it' ; s ok with you? Ana Soler: Yeah. Yes, mhm. Amy Starecheski: Of you and Josue, right? On you' ; re wedding day? Ana Soler: Josue, yeah. Amy Starecheski: I have a lot of questions about this. Did you want to get married? Ana Soler: I wanted to, but I didn' ; t want to. Because I mean, I used to be, I used to be so close to my family. I always--I have always been very close. And you know I really wasn' ; t prepared. But we had a good marriage, you know, we had a good marriage. We have three kids and my husband was never home. He was always traveling, you know, was always out of the house. So when he got sick and he passed away, you know I guess the kids were used to not having him that much around. Amy Starecheski: Did he continue to work as a musician? Ana Soler: Yes. Yeah, he used to work. That' ; s why he was always out--we never--we lived for 20 years. We never spent a Christmas together, no New Years, no kids birthday, when they did they communion. And that' ; s how I met him. I could not tell him. That was his passion. He started in the music when he was 12 years old. So you know I could not tell him not to do it. That' ; s how I met him. But when he was home he was very good. He was very good with the kids. And then we used to do things together, but that was very rarely. So with my kids, like I was mom and dad to my kids. Amy Starecheski: What kind of work did your dad do once he was in New York? Ana Soler: Me? Amy Starecheski: Your dad. Ana Soler: Who? Amy Starecheski: Your father, sorry. Ana Soler: My father, he used to work in New York. When my father came, he came with the first Puerto Ricans that came to New York, to New Jersey, to the camp, to pick tomatoes. He did that for a couple of years. Then he started working in a factory that they used to make the boxes. He worked--that' ; s where he--that' ; s where he had the accident. He worked there for about - he worked there for about 20 years because my brother used to work--when my brother got older my father took him to the job and my brother were there for many--until he retired in that job. Amy Starecheski: Where was the factory? Ana Soler: In New Jersey in, I don' ; t know. In Teaneck? Somewhere out there in Jersey. Amy Starecheski: And so you left school at 13 to take care of your father. Ana Soler: I was in the ninth grade. Amy Starecheski: What was that like? What was your life like at that point? Ana Soler: I--it hurt me because I loved school. I mean I used to--I used to love school. But you know I guess it was meant for me to do what had--I always say, you know and my father used to say, " ; You know what? You come into this world to take care of people." ; Cause when I was five years old I was taking care of my brothers. I was doing the cooking by six. Six years old, I already used to know how to cook and do everything in the house! So, and then my mom got sick. I took care of my mom 20 years, until she passed away. So, and I used to work taking care of elderly, I have kids, I have a three year old now. So I like do--I like doing that. You know sometimes I say, " ; You know, I wish I could go back to school but--" ; Amy Starecheski: Did you get to still hang out with other kids your age after you left school? Ana Soler: Oh yeah oh I still have friends that are--yes--that we see each other. One in particular, Virginia, she lives in 137. I mean I didn' ; t see her for many many years. We used to live in the barrio and we went to school together. So you know I lost contact with a lot of people. One day I' ; m walking to go to my mom' ; s house and then this lady comes and she looks at me and I looked at her. And she says, " ; You Ana, right?" ; And I said, " ; Yes?" ; And she said, " ; You don' ; t remember me?" ; And I looked at her and I say, " ; Virginia?" ; And she said, " ; Yes we went to school together in 115th!" ; So we still see each other. She gave me her number, I gave her my number and once in a while we get- we get in touch, but--yeah but the other people? God knows, most of them are gone. Amy Starecheski: Why did you move to the Bronx when you got married? Ana Soler: Because my husband have the apartment here in the Bronx. Once we got--he used to live here in the Bronx. He lived here for a long time, so. He say, you know, he had, he had his apartment. I mean, it wasn' ; t like, so. So, but I furnish it the way I wanted. I did everything. Yeah. And it was a--it was a nice nice. The building is still beautiful, the building still--I go by there and I say, " ; I wish I could go to where I used to live." ; . Amy Starecheski: What' ; s the address? Ana Soler: 628, 139th street. It' ; s right on the corner of 139 and Cypress. Amy Starecheski: By Pio Pio, the chicken place? On the same--. Ana Soler: Yes yes yes yes! Mhm. Amy Starecheski: Can you describe that apartment for me? Ana Soler: Yes. You walk in, there' ; s the hallway. Then there was the kitchen. Then you walk another hallway, that was the living room. Then you walk and there was the bedroom, and the bathroom right next to the--I--I could see it in my--in my imagine. I could imagine it the way it is. Just like every place I lived. Just like the barrio. I mean, that apartment we used to live in the barrio--I could still see that bathtub [laughter]. And they used to call them the subway because they were--you--have you ever seen them? Amy Starecheski: Yeah yeah. Ana Soler: So you could--. Amy Starecheski: I know what you' ; re talking about. Ana Soler: There was no privacy, no doors. No privacy. There' ; s no doors, nothing! And we used to--it used to be five of us and we used to have bunk bed. The bunk beds. And it was only--it was only a 1 bedroom. We used to--my father, not us--my father used to pay twenty-eight dollars rent monthly! [Laughs] Five dollars on the phone. The telephone was five dollars [laughter]! Amy Starecheski: You said that you furnished and set up your apartment the way you want? Ana Soler: Yes. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about how you set it up? Ana Soler: Well I had the sofa and the loveseat, a table. I had the TV, it wasn' ; t TV stand like this. They were like tall with skinny thing, and you used to put the TV and used to put--and it wasn' ; t this kind of TV, you know. At first it was the big big bad TVs [laughs]. But it was nice curtains, my kitchen. I used to have nice nice table set and nice drapes all the time. That' ; s one thing ; I like changing my drapes every two weeks. My house I changed--this I changed this week! Every time my kids come they say, " ; What did you do now?" ; I had this, uh, chair here, I had in the room. I took--I put this one here, and the one I had here, I put it in the room. I like changing around. Yeah. Ana Soler: And then in 400. 400 I had a big apartment. Had a three-bedroom apartment. And it was big, it was big. And I lived in the 19th floor, and you could see the airport ; Kennedy, La Guardia, everything. You could see everything in that apartment. Everything you could see. And I had that--that' ; s when my husband passed away. But it was a beautiful, beautiful--I go up--I still go there. I still have many friends there. So I still go over there. Amy Starecheski: What was the address of that building? Ana Soler: 400 Brook Avenue. Used to live in apartment 19B. [Laughs] I remember! Amy Starecheski: Of course. of course. Ana Soler: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: How did your husband die? Ana Soler: He had lung cancer. He used to be a heavy smoker and a heavy drinker. He used to--heavy heavy, but heavy smoker. Five packs. Five packs. And they were cheap, not like now. Now it' ; s eleven dollars a pack. So now you think twice before. The cigarette was cheaper and he started smoking when he was about 15-16 years old, so. But it was painful. And you know he always, always he would say that he had a pain around here all the time and I say, " ; Josue, pero, go to the hospital." ; " ; Yeah, I go to the hospital. Yeah, I go to the hospital." ; One day, he finally went to the hospital. Then he went to the hospital. I remember cause I was working. He went to Lincoln Hospital. They did x-ray. And the doctor was very blunt. Doctor says, you know, you have lung cancer. If you do chemo, maybe you could live four months. If you don' ; t, two months. [Pause] And already my two oldest were out of the house already. It was only my daughter and myself. Ana Soler: So I remember that day, I came home from work and he was in the room sleeping, and it wasn' ; t like him. So, when he got up he says, " ; Ana!" ; He used to call me mom. " ; Mom! Do me some oatmeal?" ; And I say, " ; Ai! Why you want oatmeal at this time? I' ; m about ready to cook." ; He says, " ; No I don' ; t want. I just want oatmeal." ; So, and I say, " ; Did you go to the doctor?" ; He says, " ; Yes I went." ; So he say, " ; I called Freddy and I called Josh cause I want to talk to them when" ; " ; They gonna come in today." ; So, then he sat down and he started crying. And I said, " ; What happened?" ; So he says, " ; I have lung cancer." ; And he told me what the doctor said, and he said, " ; I want to talk to my, you know I want to talk to the kids." ; Ana Soler: So the one day when my two boys came he spoke to them. My oldest boy, he took it really hard. I mean, he lost--at that time my husband--my husband lasted a month and a half, and my son lost about 15 pounds. He would go 6:00 o' ; clock in the morning, because then my husband had--he went into the hospital. Like two weeks after, he was in the hospital. He never came out of the hospital. And my son used to go every morning. 6:00 in the morning he was in the hospital! He would go see his father. They he would go to work. And then in the nighttime he went back to the hospital. And his wife, she was not supportive of my son. She was--one day he came home and she was gone. Yeah, she left the house. And since that time we have never heard from that lady. And my husband died 29 years ago. We never heard from the lady again. Amy Starecheski: Did they have children? Ana Soler: Hm? Amy Starecheski: Did they have children? Ana Soler: No. Thank God there was not children. Her name was Rosie. And she was a nice person but I mean but I don' ; t blame her because my son lived in the hospital. For that month he was--he would be crying and crying and he won' ; t eat. He was nasty, you know like, he blamed God. And you know, I talked to him almost every day. I say, " ; Josh, you have to accept that we are here and gone tomorrow. I don' ; t know what you' ; re going to do. I' ; m--one day I' ; m going too-" ; He would stop. " ; Don' ; t--don' ; t talk." ; And I say, " ; You have to prepare yourself because, what you did when your father passed away," ; I mean, when he went in to the funeral and when my husband was buried, there was about five people that had to hold him back. He got very, really--my other son took it in stride. Freddy, he is like me. I mean, you know, I cried but I don' ; t--I know that they in a better place. Ana Soler: I mean the man was suffering. Really the last week, he had--he was--we didn' ; t want to put him in machine. And one day they did, without our permission. I came in the morning and he was hooked to so many machine. And I say, " ; You know we didn' ; t sign for this" ; because I have a proxy--my mom--I had a proxy for my mother. I have a proxy for me. I don' ; t want no machine. My mom I say, " ; No machine. When the time comes let her go in peace." ; And I wanted the same thing for my husband. But years ago--now they respect. Years ago they didn' ; t respect. Because when we got there--he lasted for about a week with those--he was already gone. It was just a machine breathing. Ana Soler: So, after that, you know, then my daughter. She went crazy! That girl, she started going out. She had her boyfriend. They were boyfriend and girl--Ana' ; s son! They were boyfriend and girlfriend since they was about 11 year old. So then she was pregnant with Mark. She lived in Ana' ; s house for a couple years. Then nothing changed. They used to drink heavy and do drugs. You know, so one day they took her kids away. That' ; s when- that' ; s when she realized that--and this kid was a month old when they took the two kids away. So then she realized she wasn' ; t, you know, going nowhere. She went to a program with Matthew. Then I took--I took Mark. Then I took Mark and she went into a program for two years. She study in the program. The program, Veritas, was very good. She studied. She got her GED. When she came out of that program, she got her own apartment, she got her job, and thank God, ever since, she works in Bronx-Lebanon Hospital. She got her job. She never want nothing to do with Eddie. She live by herself and her son. And she still with Matthew. So, I guess, you know, we--everybody have their own--their own issues. Especially here in the Bronx with drugs and alcohol. But you gotta be strong, you can' ; t--and don' ; t lose hope. Ana Soler: I always pray for my kids, and they gave me, I mean, they gave me a hard time. All three of them. But today, today I could say, " ; Thank God my kids never went to jail. My kids work and they very good to me." ; I mean they--I can not--every day for 6:00 in the morning my oldest, the one that lives in Albany, he' ; s the first one that calls me, every morning. Every morning. Every morning he call and he call me 20 times a day. Oh yes. " ; Mom where are you?" ; " ; I' ; m home." ; A lot of time I lie. A lot of time I' ; m in the casino. And I say " ; No Josh, I' ; m home." ; [Laughter] And I' ; m in the casino, or I' ; m downtown. Cause he, you know, I don' ; t know, but they think I' ; m, like I' ; m a two-year-old. He calls me at nighttime 10:00, " ; Mom, is the door locked?" ; I said, " ; No, the door' ; s open." ; [Laughs] " ; Check the stove! Make sure!" ; I said, " ; You know I still have my mind." ; But I have to thank God for that, because there' ; s a lot of people out there that don' ; t have kids and they don' ; t care for them enough. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about when your first child was born? Ana Soler: Oh he was so handsome. He weighed nine pounds. He was--he was [unclear] but to every parent. But they were born in Lincoln Hospital in-- Amy Starecheski: Old Lincoln? Ana Soler: In Old Lincoln. The Old Lincoln. Yeah yeah he' ; s 51, he' ; s going to be 52. So, my father never got to see him. But my husband used- oh god he used to love that kid. Yeah. It' ; s an experience like you never- you never forget when you have your first- His first born, like he said. Every time he writes a note or something: " ; Your first born" ; he always put his--yeah. Yes yes. And then I had a very bad pregnancy. And labor-wise it was really--I was in labor for 48 hours. And it wasn' ; t like now when they used to put you in a room and there was a big clock there. And they used to leave you in that room. And once in a while a nurse would, the doctor would come. No. And I couldn' ; t go home because I got so swollen. That I--I couldn' ; t--I had to stay in that room. And they didn' ; t let my husband or nobody. Not like now! Now you even take pictures! No. Not before. For those 48 hours he didn' ; t see me. And when I finally gave birth, that child was nine pound boy who was beautiful. Ana Soler: Then you forget about the pain. So fast, you forget, right? And the doctor tells me, " ; Please at least wait a couple of years, maybe two years to have another child." ; My other son was born 11 months after Josh. Yeah, they eleven months--they look like twins--they eleven months apart. They eleven months apart. Freddy, yeah. Ana Soler: So I didn' ; t listen to the doctor. But that wasn' ; t that bad. Then I waited three years to have my daughter. Then when my daughter was born, I was again--Freddie was born fast, Fabiana was about 48 hours too. And then I had a bleeding. I bled for couple of hours. They had to put blood. And then they--they did--they say no more kids. So then, they fixed me and that was it. But my husband wanted about six or seven kid. I said, " ; Of course, you' ; re never around!" ; But I--that was it. Three. And she' ; s 47. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: You had a hysterectomy after she was born? Ana Soler: That' ; s it. Yep. Mhm. And they used to do it nicely in your belly button. Three stitches and that' ; s it. Not after. My daughter has--cause my daughter had C-section for the two kids. And it was big and, like, they open you- really open you! But I remember I had some good times. Amy Starecheski: When the--. Ana Soler: We had some sad time, but good times too. Amy Starecheski: When the kids were little, did you have anybody to help you with them? Ana Soler: No. Nobody. And, I used to work. I used to work and I used to take my kids to my job. That' ; s how they learned responsibilities. My boss would give them ten dollars on Saturdays. They would sweep the floor, they would--it was a cleaners. They would put the clothes, especially my oldest. He used to put the clothes away. He used to put the clothes in the machine to clean. And he used to give the clothes to the presser. Ana Soler: So and then when they used to go to school--the school was in 140. I used to take them in the morning, and then I used to start working at nine. At lunchtime, my boss would give me permission, I would go to the school, spend the time with them. At 3:00, I would pick them up from school, take them to my job. I used to work until six o' ; clock. They did their homework, they did everything in my job, and then we used to walk home. I used to live in Brook Avenue, so we walk home. We walk home, I cook, then my husband would come home if he was in the city then he would come home. Ana Soler: But I did that. I took my kids to high school. They used to be so mad. They went to Clark and I- I worked right across from Clark. So they--at lunchtime they would have to come into my job. In the morning I would walk them--walk them and then walk to--cross the street, be at my job. And then when they went to Clinton, I used to take them and then my daughter went to Jane Addams. I used to take her. And they used to say " ; Mom!" ; My oldest, when he was in Clark, you know Clark has two entrance. So one day, he decided to play hooky. He goes out the side door, because if he comes from the front I could see him. I work the counter in the front. So I would see. I would be talking to everybody- I' ; d see everything. So he went to the back so I didn' ; t see him. And then my boss, that day he says, " ; Ana, go take--" ; I used to take the money to the--I used to take 40, 50, 60, thousand dollars to the bank every Friday. And I have keys to the place. And I' ; m going to the bank and I see this bunch of kids, about seven kids, walking to 3rd Avenue, [giggle] and in that group I see my son. And I walk fast. When he saw me, he grabbed his belly. He said, [laughter] " ; Mom I got a pain in my stomach!" ; I said " ; Oh, you got a pain in the stomach?" ; I used to be--I smacked him so hard. And I took him back to school. I said to the other kids, " ; If you want to come back with me, it' ; s fine, but I' ; m taking my child back to school. And I took him back to school and I told the teacher. And the teacher, so, " ; Josh, you should know better than that. You should know that, even if you go to 3rd Avenue, somebody--everybody knows your mom, cause everybody know. Everybody knows your Mom, they gonna--they gonna tell your mom that they saw you. That was it. He never played hooky again [laugh]. Amy Starecheski: Why did you keep such a close eye on them? Ana Soler: I don' ; t know. I was always very, very protective of my kids, always. Even- even when they were older. Even when we lived together that they were teenagers. I used to go to sleep, but they would sneak out in the middle of the night. And I would hear them. I didn' ; t care if it was two, three o' ; clock in the morning. I would get up and I kind of know. Fabiana, I knew she was in Ana' ; s house. And they see me, they say " ; Fabiana, your mother!" ; I would smack her. I didn' ; t care where I was. And she knew it. And Freddie and Josh they had friends in 139. And they would say, " ; Freddy, your mom is coming!" ; I didn' ; t care what time it was. I would always-- Ana Soler: And one time the police caught Freddy. They were hanging out in front of the Catholic school. They weren' ; t supposed to be. And they catch him and the police called me. They say, " ; Are you Miss Ana Soler?" ; . And I said, " ; Yes." ; And they says, " ; You know you have your son Freddie, we have him here in the precinct--in the 40th precinct." ; And I said, " ; What' ; d he do?" ; " ; Well they were hanging out and this is the third time that we have told them not to hang out there. Him and Carlo, a couple of kids. They were from Clark. They used to go to Clark. And I said, " ; Well you know what, I' ; m sorry but I don' ; t have no child named Fernando Soler." ; And that was on a Friday. And I hung up the phone. They call me at my job. I hung up the phone. And mind you I did not sleep that night. And it' ; s Saturday, Sunday. He was--they had him in the precinct, for all those days. Monday morning, it was around 7 o' ; clock, the police knock on my door in 400. [Laughs]. And they say, " ; This is your child, right?" ; [Laugh] And I say, " ; Yes." ; And they say, " ; And you were the lady we call?" ; And I said, " ; Yes, but you know what? He knows better than to be hanging out there because I have talking to him, I talk to him and I tell him. So now he knows better not to be hanging there. Never again I had any problem with my son. Never, never again. With none of them. And while his kids were growing up, he' ; s got two beautiful, beautiful kids, he told them the story. He say, " ; You know, what mommy did? And to this day I thank my mother for doing that." ; And he tell his friends. He tell the story to a lot of people, he say--. And I' ; m not telling you that it didn' ; t hurt me but I had to do it. I had to do it. Ana Soler: My father used to be the same way. My father says, " ; You get into trouble, like, and if you smoke, you better pay for your cigarette because if I see you asking anybody for a cigarette--and my father was [unclear] my father was--my father used to punish, but really punish. And not, like, not a little punishment like now. He used to put rice in the floor, and we had to kneel in the floor. And if he says 20 minutes, it was 20 minutes, depending on what you did. And he had a belt. And when you did something really- he' ; s gonna give you a five belts in your back, it' ; s five belts. No no no. Not one, not--he would do that. So I guess I grew up like--I mean I didn' ; t abuse my kids but I wasn' ; t an easy. I wasn' ; t easy. And I' ; m still not. I' ; m still--if I have--I' ; m not--I don' ; t yell. I don' ; t like yelling. If I curse, my kid has done something really out of the ordinary because I don' ; t. And, but when I had to tell my kid something, I tell them. I don' ; t- I' ; m not a nagger. But if you do something wrong, I' ; m going to tell you. I don' ; t hold nothing back. And the same thing, my grandkids. That' ; s why my grandkids come to my house and they talk to me. They don' ; t go talk to that--they come talk to me, they said, you know they said--' ; cause when I have to--when I have to tell them something I always tell them. If they' ; re doing something wrong, I would tell them, so. Amy Starecheski: What kinds of things would you get in trouble for as a kid? Ana Soler: Well, Matthew, he was smoking. And this kid, they don' ; t know that I know so many people. No matter, no matter where you are you can' ; t hide. So, a lady told me, " ; Ana, I know that was your grandson. I saw him with a cigarette." ; And then, he came. I call him. I said, " ; Matthew, if you have a chance, come to the house." ; He didn' ; t deny it. He say yes, Grandma. But, I' ; m not gonna do it again. And I ask him every day. He said, " ; No, Grandma. I' ; m not doing it. And I said, " ; Uou know," ; And like in school I tell him, " ; You know, you have to do what you have to do in school. You know why? Your mother is paying for your school." ; That' ; s not--and that' ; s 700 dollars. Cardinal Hayes is seven hundred and fifty dollars. And luckily he' ; s got a scholarship. She only pay 400 dollars. But he has to keep his grade. Otherwise, he will lose his scholarship. So I' ; m always--I always say, " ; You know, Matthew, you have to do what you have to do in school. After school, If you want to go play basketball--" ; --cause he love basketball--" ; You could go play a little bit." ; You know, you can not have kids. And he works. He works in the Bronx Zoo. He works weekends. So the first--his first paycheck, he bought his mom a pair of shoes [laughs]. So now he told his mom, " ; Mom I' ; m gonna pay for my cell phone. From now on you don' ; t worry about the cellphone. I' ; m going to pay it." ; So, you know, I mean that says that they are growing up and being responsible. He' ; s being responsible, so. So he works Saturday and Sunday. From 8 to 6 o' ; clock. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s a long day. Ana Soler: Yeah. His mother, she has two jobs. In order to pay his school, pay rent, Con Edison, you know how much you--even if you are not home in the house all day! It' ; s a hundred sixty, hundred and seventy. I don' ; t know why! Because you' ; re not home. In summer, okay, because you put the air condition, you know. But in winter, you are not home and It' ; s a lot of money. So she has two job. She works two job. Amy Starecheski: What does she do? Ana Soler: She works at Bronx-Lebanon from Monday to Friday from 9 to 5. And then in the weekend she works in a laundromat folding clothes. And she opens the place and she close it on Saturday and Sunday. So, and Matthew, he does the laundry. He does the laundry because he knows. And then Saturday he go pick up his mom, she close at 8:30. And he knows it' ; s dangerous, she' ; s there by herself and there' ; s money in the place. So he picks her up Saturday and Sunday. But it' ; s only for a little while, you know, and she says, " ; Until--he only got one more year to go." ; So, for next year for graduation, the ring, the cap and gown and everything, it' ; s over two thousand dollars. It' ; s over two thousand dollars, everything. Their senior trip and everything. And it has to be paid at a certain time. You know, it' ; s not like you pay a month before. No. You gotta pay September school start. And she pay school. He' ; s not in school. She has to pay from July up to May. So even if he' ; s not in school she has to pay those months. But you don' ; t regret because he' ; s a good kid, you know. Amy Starecheski: I was curious, too. You talked about how your dad would punish you. When you were a kid what did you get in trouble for? Ana Soler: We didn' ; t get in trouble for nothing, but, you know, like, if there' ; s two people talking, older than you, and you would get in the conversation, they will just look at you. Your parent would just look at you and you know what' ; s coming. Once that person leaves, Punishment is coming. Nowadays kids, you see kids three year old calling you a liar at--yeah! I seen outside, kids and they want this and they want this now. The little kid that I have. The other day she wanted an icee. And I said, " ; Stacy, one minute, we just got to the house. Let me take off your jacket--" ; " ; No I want it now! I want it!" ; She' ; s only three years old. And I say, " ; You know what? Now you' ; re not getting it." ; And I didn' ; t. I didn' ; t give it to her. And, you know, she knows when we go out she has to behave. I don' ; t like rowdy kids. I don' ; t like kids crying, running around. She doesn' ; t touch nothing in the house. We go to church. She behave in church. Saturday we went out. Me and my friends we went out to Olive Garden. She sat down that--one of my friends say, " ; I can' ; t believe that this child behaves so well." ; She didn' ; t dare. She ate her food, we walk off. But you see those naked lady in 42nd Street. Wow. I was- I haven' ; t gone down there in long time. I got--I was so shocked. There was--the body was just painted. Amy Starecheski: I heard about that. Ana Soler: And the naked cowboy? Amy Starecheski: [Laughs] Ana Soler: He' ; s a good looking man, though [laughs]. Amy Starecheski: I wanna go back for a minute to when you first came to this neighborhood you said it was a lot of Irish and Italian people, Jewish-- Ana Soler: Yes. Amy Starecheski: --and that you had to go to church in the basement. Ana Soler: Mhm. Amy Starecheski: I want to hear more about what it was like coming here as a Puerto Rican at that time. Ana Soler: When I came to the Bronx, I was already familiar with the language. It was very hard when I came to the barrio when I went to school. I didn' ; t know no English. I didn' ; t know anything. So that time was hard, but once I came here, it wasn' ; t that--I used to work down in Willow, you know, after the bridge down--there was so many factories out there. And I used to work, and--I didn' ; t used to go to church that much. Once I moved to the Bronx, I had my two kids who were very small. Freddy was only a year old, so, you know, I used to stay more in the house. I didn' ; t associate. Maybe I went once or twice to church in the basement. But then when I started going, then it was already, I would say, and then there weren' ; t. All the Jewish were--all the Irish were gone. All the Italian--they left this neighborhood. I mean, like, within a year they went. I don' ; t know. I don' ; t even know where they went. Ana Soler: But then, the Puerto Ricans started coming. And then, the Dominican. Then a lot of Dominicans started coming. I tell you mainly, around here now we have very few Puerto Rican. Very few in the barrio. Very few. In the Bronx, not many Puerto Rican. In the church, you don' ; t see many Puerto Ricans. So, most of them have gone to Florida. Most of them are in Florida. Even in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico there' ; s many, many Chinese. See a lot of Chinese in PR. You see a lot of Dominican. Now it' ; s called Dominican because all the Dominicans are in Puerto Rico. And the Chinese--you see a lot of Chinese in Puerto Rico. But here, now here all we see is from Africa. Everywhere. Years ago when I came to housing, you had to be married. You had to have a marriage certificate. You had to take a birth certificate for your children. Every year they would come and they would check. You know, it was very strict to get into the project. Now anybody could get in the project. But no one--I moved in the project 1973, and it was very, very strict. Very strict. And now, now a lot of Africans around here. And they' ; re nice people. You know, I got nothing to--they' ; re very nice people. They have a lot of kids. But, Puerto Rican, like, I don' ; t know what' ; s going on. In this building, I don' ; t think we got five Puerto Rican families in this building. I don' ; t think there' ; s five families. And this is a lot of apartment. And I don' ; t think we got five Puerto Rican. We have a lot of Dominican. There' ; s a lot of Dominican--a lot. Mainly Dominican, and now we have a lot of African. Amy Starecheski: In here. Ana Soler: In here. I say we have maybe about- about 20 families in this building. But Puerto Rican, in this floor, I' ; m the only Puerto Rican. In the twenty there was one family that she died. She died this year. And in the nineteenth floor there' ; s one Puerto Rican family. And I think in the fifth floor, I think. Because from church we visit, you know, we visited and we put down. That' ; s why I know that there' ; s not even five families here that came from Puerto Rico. Amy Starecheski: Why do you think the Irish and Italian people left? Ana Soler: They got scared of the Puerto Ricans [laughs]. We were rowdy. Everywhere we go we were rowdy [laughs]. In the barrio we were, and when we came here too. Yeah. But they left fast. And they kept it nice. The church, that was kept nice. Rich. Then, well, you know, when the poor people came, that' ; s why our church went down the drain. Cause, there were people that could give 200-300 dollars a month, but there were people that were giving 50 cents. Amy Starecheski: And you started off going to St. Pius or St. Luke?. Ana Soler: No, I' ; m from St. Pius. Amy Starecheski: Ok. St. Luke' ; s Is right around the corner from 139th Street. Why-- Ana Soler: My oldest son is baptized in St Luke. I used to go to St. Luke. Yeah. That' ; s a beautiful church, too. Yeah. Yeah, but like, when I first got married, between my father being sick, and you know, I' ; m recently married, and like, I really didn' ; t want to get married, you know. So, the first--I could tell you the first, maybe two-three years--they were kinda hard. And then, when I had my first child it was even harder. Ana Soler: And then, my husband didn' ; t want me to work. And I liked to work. I used to, you know. Then for a couple of years I couldn' ; t work. Once I had the kids, he didn' ; t want me working. I got very fat. I had my hair long, ugh! I looked like I was 80 years old. Ana Soler: Yeah, then one day I woke up I said--one day I went into the cleaners and the boss says, " ; Ana, you know I need a person to work here--the front desk." ; And I said, " ; Well, Lenny, you know, I don' ; t know nothing about--" ; I didn' ; t know nothing about cleaner. And he said, " ; That' ; s ok. You' ; ll catch up." ; I came home. And my kids were already in school. Ana Soler: And, you know, when my husband came home, I said, " ; You know what? I got a job. I' ; m going back to work." ; He says, " ; No!" ; He got very angry. Yeah, he got very--and I think--and that point on, like, our marriage really, it wasn' ; t the same. You know, cause he was a very jealous type. My husband, he was very jealous. He didn' ; t, like, I used to go to church, and he used to go pick me up in church and say, " ; Let' ; s go home." ; Yeah, he was that type. He was, like, not physically abusive, but mentally he was. You know, he wanted to have--and he wanted to do the same with the kids. With the kids he was kinda like that, too. Once I started working, one day I cut my hair, he came home, I had my hair short, oh! I started losing weight. I did the same thing I used to do. I used to cook I used to clean. I took care of my kids. I used to take care of him, I used to take care of the house. But at least I was out for a couple of hours working, doing something, having my own money, not having to ask him for nothing. Nothing like, you being on your own that you do whatever you want with your money. You know, he was wasn' ; t cheap, but I started working early. I started working when I was 16. So I' ; m used to be on my own. And I like being, you know. Once in a while people say, " ; Ai, Ana, why didn' ; t you remarry?" ; I said, " ; What would I remarry for? I' ; m happy the way--I' ; m not unhappy. I' ; m a very happy person. I' ; m very fulfilled person. I do whatever I want. I said, " ; Look if I want to go to bed at 10:00, I go to bed at 10:00. If I want to go at 8:00, I go. If I want to cook, I cook. if I want to take a bath, I take a bath." ; Nobody has to tell me what to do. That' ; s what I tell my kid. Like, this morning, Freddy said, " ; Mom what are you going to do?" ; I said, " ; I have a meeting in church." ; " ; Oh you always have something to do." ; And I said, " ; Yes, and what' ; s the problem? I have things to do and you cannot tell me nothing." ; Because, you know, if you let--my kids, if I let my kids they would be just like their father. They are always asking me, " ; What are you doing, what you gonna?" ; They care for me, but don' ; t boss me around. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me more about St. Pius--what being a part of that church was like? Ana Soler: St. Pius--it' ; s a family. St. Pius, I mean, we still see each other, we hug each other. St. Pious, when somebody got sick, they were there for you, right away. Anybody die, even now, if somebody died that used to go to St. Pius, we would get together and we got to the funeral. If anybody needs something, you know, like, one--the time that I got mugged in the elevator in my building, they took seven hundred dollars. It was one day that I was going to pay my bills. And, that same day, I don' ; t know how the priest found out that I was--that somebody held me up. He came to my house that night with an envelope. I said, " ; Father Paul--" ; he is still alive. I love. I said, " ; Father Paul, what is it?" ; He says, " ; We know what happened. We know that you need to pay your bills." ; I could never forget that. And instead of--they took seven hundred dollars and he gave me an envelope with a thousand dollars. It was from all the people from church, they collected. We used to collect if somebody died and there was no money for the burial, right away we collect, and we would pay for the burial. You know, I mean there' ; s so many stories. You see people from St. Pius, they could tell you so many stories. So many. And so many priests that--very good priests we had. They had the young group for the kids. My kids were in the youth group. We used to do retreat up in Haverstraw. Three days retreat. And I used to cook. I used to--we used to go up there to cook for the kids. You know, my kids grew up in church. My kids, They all grew up in the church. So, there used to be retreat. All the people--we used to cook for the kids. It' ; s beautiful, Haverstraw is beautiful. Then on Sunday morning we used to go, they had breakfast. We used to play ping-pong. They used to play baseball, basketball. We were there all day until nighttime. And then in July, we used to go to the lake. The church used so have three--we used to rent three buses. We used to go to the lake. And there was a mountain. And the first thing we did, we put all the tables with maybe 200 people, 300 people used to go. And the priest always went with us. First thing we did: he gave a mass, and everybody that was in the lake would go there, whether they were from our group or not. They would hear the mass and you would see, I mean like the sky was so beautiful. It was seven o' ; clock in the morning. Cause we used to leave at five-thirty in the morning. So you had to go early to catch the good place and catch all the tables. And we used to spend the whole day. They used to go to the lake, take a bath. We used to play bingo, we used to play baseball. My kids were going since they were small. And there was a lot of things for the kids to do there. But the first thing was the mass. After we had mass, we had breakfast. Then, " ; Okay. What you want to do?" ; Eveybody--one group did one thing, another group play dominoes, another group play bingo. A lot of the people die. A lot, a lot of people die, but we stick it. On Sunday, that' ; s why I don' ; t come here on Sunday. Sunday I go to St. Regis. But most of the people from St. Pius are in Immaculate Conception. Fifty percent of the people are over there. In St. Rita maybe about 20 people. But we see each other on Sunday and we hug and we talk. It was a family. I go by there, a lot of time I cry. I shouldn' ; t, but I cry when I see my church. Cause, I went there for 40 years. You know, it' ; s a long, long time that you know the people. So, Maxi could tell you. Sylvia. ' ; Cause their parents, Sylvia' ; s parents went there many many years. But Maxi' ; s family, I mean, it was a big--big sisters, cousin, nephew. There used to be, maybe, in the family alone, must of been about fifteen member. They were very good. They still are. Tomasa is sick. Sylvia is sick. But they were very good people. Amy Starecheski: Why did the church close? Ana Soler: Because people were not paying what they were supposed to pay. I mean, people got poorer and poorer. A lot of people lost they job. A lot of people were elderly. They lived on a fixed income. You know, it' ; s not like when you working that maybe you could take a hundred dollars and give to the church a month. When you live on your Social Security check, how much could you give your church? After you pay your rent and the bills you got, there isn' ; t much. So that' ; s what happened. It started--you know. They were saying it for a while. They was saying that, and it wasn' ; t only our church. St. Roch closed. In the Bronx alone there was about 20 church. School. A lot of school closed because of the charter school. Charter school--I have nothing against charter school but they have taken over. Even public school are beginning to be empty. They' ; re closing a lot of public school this year because there' ; s not enrollment. Amy Starecheski: Did your kids go to P.S. 30? You said it was a hundred and fortieth street. Ana Soler: It was P.S. 40. Amy Starecheski: Oh, ok. Ana Soler: P.S. 30 is in Brook Avenue on 139. P.S. 40 it' ; s in 140 between Willis and Brook. And that' ; s where my kids went. Amy Starecheski: When did you start [to] notice buildings being abandoned and that kind of thing around here? Ana Soler: I think by 1980s. In the ' ; 80s people starting moving away. The rich people started moving away by maybe before in the ' ; 70s, because when I moved to Betances already there were no Italians here, and I moved to Betances in ' ; 73. In 1965 there was still few [pause] a few business. We have Hearns There was a lot of stores in Third Avenue. Now, a lot of store have close. They open because Burlington open, Marshalls open, and there is a couple of stores open now. But, before it was Alexander. I used to love Alexander. The five and ten. There was a lot of--you know. There was shoe store, good shoe stores. But once business, even our cleaner, there where I used to work. That cleaner was there. It was my boss' ; s father. It was his father. Then Lenny took over and I worked there for 27 years and when I moved in 1965, the cleaner was there and it was there for years. They used to rent tuxedos. They used to rent tuxedos. It was a big business. But then my boss, he got older and got sick. So then, he sold the business to a Chinese--Korean. Why he sold the building to the Korean? The Korean brought the business down because--I worked 10 years for the Korean anyway. But when I used to work with Lenny, Lenny used to tell me all the time " ; Remember, the customer is always right." ; And this is a business like a beauty parlor. " ; If somebody comes in that feels like talking, Ana, you could talk. You could talk all you want. Talk to the people. Be nice to them." ; And that' ; s what I did. That' ; s how I know so I know so many people. Sometimes I walk and I hear, " ; Cleaning lady!" ; Because that' ; s how they used to call me. " ; Hey, Miss cleaning lady!" ; I seen kids that were small, that now are men, and they come and they hug me and they kiss me. Sometime I don' ; t remember their name. I remember their faces, but I don' ; t remember their name. But, I say, " ; Oh honey, how are you? How' ; s the family?" ; And that' ; s why the cleaner was always making money. When that Korean came, he stopped that. If you came in with a ticket and it was, let' ; s say a pant was $2.50, and you had $2.25, he would not give you the pants. Lenny, when he closed, when he left, a lot of people owe Lenny and believe me, everybody would come every week, " ; Miss Ana here, this is--" ; Everybody pay every penny, and then, once a week, I would get in contact with Lenny and one of his kids would come and pick up. They paid Lenny every penny. The Korean, if you didn' ; t have--no credit at all. If you came in, and you started talking to me, right away he says, " ; Ana, you' ; ve got things to do." ; Never, when Lenny was there there was never--the place was never held up. While the Korean was there, in a year--in one year we had seven hold up with gun. And the Korean would hide and I would have to take care of the guys. They would put a gun to my head, to my chest. And they hated him. They hated. They hated. So you know I started not to like my job. And once you don' ; t like your job--so, I told him I say, " ; You know, Frank, very soon I' ; m leaving. So you have to start looking for somebody." ; Cause, I was gonna leave the man hanging either. It was only the presser, himself, his wife used to come on Saturday, and myself. And I used to do most everything. So then, you know, one day, my kids they kept saying, " ; Mommy, one day somebody is going to get hurt in that cleaner." ; One day, it was on a Friday. Three guys came in. It was about 1:30 in the afternoon. Three guys came into the store. One guy stood outside. And it was pure winter. The door was closed, but they come in. And then, the guy tells me--he took out a gun. He says, " ; Open the register and give me what you have." ; I said--we wasn' ; t making that much business. I said, " ; Look, there isn' ; t much in the register but--" ; And then, the presser, he hide in the bathroom, and my boss went to the other bathroom. They locked themselves in the bathroom. And they left me with the three guys in the cleaner. So I opened the register, and there was about sixty dollars. So then, one of the guys said, " ; No, you must have something." ; And he started looking in my pocket. He started looking around here. He took my earrings, he took my ring, and they left. And I said, " ; You know, Frank, this is it." ; I had it. Because the least you could do is be here in the front with me. You not gonna do anything, but at least I know that somebody here. Why would you and Tony hide in the bathroom. What kind of security do I have? He say, " ; No!" ; . Ana Soler: And then he didn' ; t want me to report. He didn' ; t want me to go to the precinct and tell what was going on. I said, " ; No. That' ; s it." ; I walked right out and I never looked back. And that same--it was Friday. Saturday, again, the next day, they gave a holdup. And his wife she didn' ; t know English. So the guys were talking, and he did the same thing. He went to the back. He left the wife in the front. She didn' ; t know what the guy was saying. They punched the wife. She almost lost her eye. They knock her to the ground, they opened the register, and they left. Then he had to call the police and they took his wife to the hospital. He called me, he said, " ; Ana, please come back." ; He told me what happened and I said, " ; Sorry." ; A year after that happened, about seven months, again, then he closed the cleaner. He lost a lot of money. And I felt bad, but he wasn' ; t a business man. Especially in this neighborhood, you got to be nice to the people, ' ; cause they could get back. They could get really back at you. And Lenny never, never--and he was there over 50 years. Never. Never nobody. He was such--I mean, he was like, to me, like he was my father. He was so good to me. And he was so good to my kids. He was really- it wasn' ; t like he was my boss, you know, he was my father. I used to get up and I used to go to work. I' ; d be so happy like, I love my job. I love what I used to do. And before that, I used to work down in Willow. I worked doing ladies hat. I worked there for about seven years. Well, all together I worked 40 years. Of my life, I worked 40 years. When I first started working, I used to make twenty-eight dollars a week. And it was 40 hours you have to work. It wasn' ; t like now, and no computer. And it has to be standing up. It was standing up. Eight hours standing up. And now people don' ; t like what they do. I used to love what I do. Everything I used to do, even when I used to work in the nursing home taking care of the elderly, I used to get up, and go do what I had to do. And that' ; s the way I live my life. I enjoy what I do. Amy Starecheski: I can tell. When was it that the holdups started happening at the cleaners? About what year was it? Ana Soler: Lenny left the cleaner. It was nineteen eight--they started like in 1990. In 1990 they started those. Lenny, that' ; s when he sold the cleaners, that year. And the first year was OK, you know, it wasn' ; t, but, after that he didn' ; t want to--I mean, if you don' ; t have--for a quarter, for a dime, you not gonna--and Koreans are like that. Koreans that have business are like that. Business come first. And it' ; s not like that, especially if you have that kind of business, you have to work with the customer. So otherwise, they gonna get back to you, especially the Blacks. They are really--because most of them were Black kids. And they were young--twenty, twenty-one years old. The last one that that--they had one kid that he must have been eleven years old. That day I really was so mad. I wanted to grab that kid. If it wasn' ; t that the other two guy had guns--because the one that was getting the money from the cash register and looking in, and the older one told him to look in my pocket, I would have grabbed that kid. But, you know, when there' ; s gun--maybe they were toy gun but you never know. And my life, no, it was too--but the last holdup was about, I say, about 2007-' ; 8, like that. 2007. Then, that was it. Then I started working taking care of elderly people. Amy Starecheski: And Lenny was white? Ana Soler: Hm? Amy Starecheski: Was Lenny white? Ana Soler: Jewish. Amy Starecheski: Jewish. Ana Soler: But he was a Puerto Rican-Jewish because, I mean, that man everybody loved that man. Everybody. He passed away two years ago. Amy Starecheski: Why didn' ; t the Korean owner want to report the robberies to the police? Ana Soler: He never did. And, believe me, he was there for ten years, and there must have been about 15 robberies in those ten years alone. While I was there was about maybe 15. Every week they used to hit us! Every. Week. They used to hit us. And a few times there were customers in the cleaners, and they would take the customers' ; money too. Yes, yes. Yeah. It got to be very dangerous. It got to be very dangerous here. Amy Starecheski: Why didn' ; t he want to report it? Ana Soler: I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know why. And then, what bothered me, one or two times he was in the front, he couldn' ; t go nowhere, He would say, " ; God bless you." ; Oh my, then I really really got pissed off. I said, " ; After they come here, they take your money, you say, ' ; God bless you?' ; " ; [Laughs] He was a fanatic. I believe in God. I go to church. I do what I have to do. But I get mad too. And if you slap my face, I' ; m not gonna--I' ; m sorry, but I' ; m not gonna put--but he was a fanatic. Religions [unclear] but, he wasn' ; t good with us either. He wasn' ; t. He wasn' ; t very, very nice with us. Amy Starecheski: When did you first meet Ana? Ana Soler: I met Ana' ; s husband. I knew Ana' ; s husband before I knew Ana. Ana' ; s kids and my kids, they used to play baseball when they were small. And we met in the park, but we didn' ; t hit it off right away. We didn' ; t. We say " ; hi" ; and " ; bye." ; And then, I guess we started really getting close when Mark was born. When Mark was born, then Fabiana live in her house, then we really started- we started going out. We started vacationing. We went to Florida twenty times together. So we did a lot of things with Mark. We did a lot, a lot of things with Mark. Yeah. But I knew her husband before I met Ana. But then we got to be very good- we are very close. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Can you describe her for me? Ana Soler: Well, you see, Ana is outgoing. She never gets tired. But we are very different, because Ana is, she' ; s kind of scared to talk. Like, if her son is doing something wrong, she' ; s scared to tell him. I' ; m not. If I see something wrong, I will tell you right away. My home, I always have rules in my house. I mean, I' ; m not a dictator, but my home I have rules. If I tell my children when they were living together here, " ; You have to come home eight o' ; clock" ; you better be home eight o' ; clock. Not eight-thirty, Eight o' ; clock. Eight o' ; clock. And, you know, once in a while, they ask permission to bring their friends. " ; Okay." ; But not every day. I don' ; t allow it. I don' ; t allow nobody drinking in my home. I don' ; t allow nobody smoking in my home. Not even good cigarette, I don' ; t allow in my house. And my kids know it. I will not allow--if you have a relationship, not in my house. When my husband passed away, my kids could never say--they have come into my home and they have found a man in the house. That' ; s the way I was raised. To respect my home. And that' ; s the way I raised my kids. And I raised my kids to clean their plate. " ; Don' ; t leave nothin' ; around." ; If they need to wash clothes--. Ana Soler: That was one thing. I had a lot of problem with my husband, cause he did not want my kids washing dishes. He didn' ; t want my kids helping around the house. And I was very different. I said, " ; My kids are going to clean dishes. They gonna wash clothes. They gonna sweep the floor and they gonna mop. Because my brothers, I have five brothers, they all--my father used to put everybody to clean. One had to do it today, the next one. And if you did the dishes wrong? One of my brothers, he was sloppy doing dishes. He would leave grease. My father would go, and he was in a wheelchair, he would go to the kitchen. He would check the plate. He would check. And you had to clean the stove. You had to clean everything. And if he see grease on one of the pot, he would call, especially Tato, Freddy, my brother, we used to call him Tato. We all had nicknames. All of us had nickname. He would say, " ; Tato, ven aqui." ; Tato would go to the kitchen, he would smack Tato with the pan in his head. " ; Do it again." ; And, let me tell you, if he says, " ; You gonna wash that pot five times," ; you have to wash it five times. If he says, " ; Ten times--" ; I wish it was still when we get together- me and my brothers cause we--five years ago, we went to Puerto Rico. My sister was sick and she wanted to see all of us, so we all went for Christmas. I took Mark. We all went for Christmas. And we were sitting down. We cry, we laugh, and we remember everything that our father used to do. You know, we were there for six days. And every day it was a different story. We used to be around. And the neighbors, there was three neighbors, and they would come and they said, " ; You know, I never seen brothers that are so close." ; And you say the things that your father used to do, and you laugh about it. We never got mad. Ana Soler: Tato, he was the first one that smoked. He was the first one that left the house. And, we had to take turns taking a bath. We had to take turns. So, my father said, " ; Tato it' ; s your turn to go take a bath." ; He goes into the bathroom to take a shower, and he' ; s singing and whistling in the bathroom. When it' ; s time to come out of the bathroom, my father said, " ; Tato, tu te banada, did you take a bath?" ; He says, " ; Seguro, Papi." ; " ; Tato, tuto seguro? Irma, Go get the soap in the bathroom." ; The soap was dry [laughs]. He says, " ; Irma, llenar la banera." ; Put water in the bathtub. And he said, " ; Tato, go in the bathtub" ; . He gave him one soap. He had to finish that soap.[laughs] He gave him a second soap [laughs] he had to finish that one, too. He gave him a third soap! [laughs] He was in the bathtub for about three hours. About three hours! You would not believe! [laughs]. You would not believe! [laughs] He never fool around again! Never. Never. Ana Soler: There was another funny funny. ' ; Cause we live with our father, we didn' ; t have a mom. One day he told Carlito, my brother--he passed away seven years ago. He say, " ; Carlo, go to the store and buy me a tomato sauce." ; The store was about a block away. And Carlito told Chico, my youngest, " ; Chico, go to the store and buy the tomato sauce." ; So Chico went, and Chico came back, but my father was sitting. Chico came back, " ; Papi, [unclear] la salsa." ; And Pop say " ; Carlo, go take it back to the store." ; [heavy laughter]. And we live in the fourth floor. And he had to go take it back to the store and come back home. My father said, " ; Carlo, go back and buy the tomato sauce." ; [Heavy laughter] Ten times! He Had to go back for ten times. [through heavy laughter] I don' ; t know what my father was thinking, But that' ; s the way he used to teach. I mean we have so many funny stories. But never again. My father used to say, " ; Carlo, got to the store." ; [laughs] No more fooling. Maybe you said, " ; that' ; s a lie," ; but those are true stories. Amy Starecheski: What was your nickname? Ana Soler: Nini. Tato, his name is Fernando. Chico, his name is Jose. Frankie, his name was Efrain, so he was called Frank. Irma, her name is Irma Iris. So her was Iris. Everybody had a nickname. My mother used to call me " ; Nini," ; too. Everybody in [unclear], everybody know Nini, nobody knows Ana. Amy Starecheski: I know we' ; re probably getting close to being out of time, but let me think if there' ; s just a few more things I wanted to ask you. Ana Soler: People will not believe those stories. [laughs]. Amy Starecheski: I believe it [laughs]. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me about what you and Ana like to do for fun together now, or just what you like to do. Ana Soler: Now? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. What do you like to do? Ana Soler: I love to walk some days. If I was rich, I would go to a restaurant every day. Saturdays, usually, like, we already planned, this Saturday we going to Co-op City we' ; re going shopping and then we go out to eat. Me and Ana, and the girl. I like going to the casinos. I can' ; t go now because of the--but I love going to the casino. I don' ; t spend no more than maybe seventy-five dollars, But I like going. I like to visit the sick. On Mondays, that' ; s the day I go visit them. Now this week I got to go Monday and I gotta go Tuesday, because there' ; s somebody else that is sick and they asked me if I could go. Now I don' ; t do it much, but I used to go to a nursing home every Sunday. After church, I used to go to nursing homes. For Mother' ; s Day I go to nursing home. I take flowers to the ladies. You know, because, there' ; s so many people. Believe me, we had my mom in a nursing home for a year. It was very hard. I used to go seven days a week I was there-yes. I was there from eight in the morning, to seven at night. I used to bathe my mom, I used to do everything. They never, they never did nothing for my mom. I used to do everything. I used to give her lunch, her dinner. I used to put her to bed. Everything I did. And, before that I used to work--I always go to a nursing home, for years!. Since, once my kids, they were on their own. You know, once my kids--when my kids were small, I took care of my family, I took care of my house. I used to take my kids play baseball. I was always there. At school trip I was always there. I used to take, on the weekend, we used to go to Central Park, Randall' ; s Island. We used to go to Yankee Stadium. You could go years ago. Now you can' ; t. Now, a hot dog is six dollars. An ice cream is seven dollars. A beer--I don' ; t drink beer, but a beer is twelve dollars. The ticket- I used to pay 75 cents to take my kids to the bleachers. Now it' ; s 15-20 dollars. It depends on the team that comes. If it' ; s not such a good team, you pay 15 dollars. But when Boston comes, and the Mets come, forget it! They could go as high as 75 dollars for the bleachers, you know, so--I don' ; t know how people--there' ; s a lot of white people but not from here. They come from Albany, they come from all over. And they bring their kids. But, to go into the Yankee stadium, if you have two kids, you gonna have five hundred dollars spend. Cause they want--the fingers, that finger cost 20 bucks, so. But I, I still, Sundays--Sunday is the day that--Saturday I like to go out. Sunday is the day that I go to church and I go to nursing home or visit somebody that' ; s sick. Monday I go to church and then me and about three or four people from the church we go. There' ; s so many people--there' ; s--we go to 455 here in 138. There' ; s so many people--there' ; s especially one lady, she got nobody. That lady has no family. She got no telephone. Last week she went to cash her check, and they mug her, they throw her in the floor, she has a black eye. But let me tell you, they didn' ; t take her money. She said there was two Black kid, " ; They threw in me in the floor, they kicked me, they look, but I have my money." ; (laughs) Amy Starecheski: In her bra? Ana Soler: They didn' ; t get her money. But, oh man, oh I--that was Monday when we went to visit. I see her and she don' ; t have a phone, she don' ; t. And you know, that' ; s, sometimes I say, how could, and she has kids. I say how could your kids forget about that they have a mom? She says, " ; Oh my daughter live in Tennessee and my other live in Queens." ; I said, " ; Queens is right across the street." ; They come once in a while. But, and they say I' ; m safe here. It' ; s a safe building you know it' ; s a very--especially that one on 285, they' ; re very safe. But why can' ; t they--why can' ; t she have a phone? That' ; s what I don' ; t understand. And she, she don' ; t hear well. But there' ; s still--even if you can' ; t hear--there are special phones for deaf people. So I don' ; t understand. And there' ; s a lot of, there' ; s a lot of people that needs company. And you know we are doing nothing but watching TV. That' ; s what I tell Ana. I said, " ; You know Ana once in a while you should come with me." ; Come, come to a hospital. Come. Come to see. You know and then you will, you will not complain because a lot, the people that complain it' ; s because they don' ; t see what' ; s going on around. There' ; s a lot of lonely people. There' ; s a lot of lonely people. A lot of kids. You know something--kids that I take care of that' ; s--I would get paid better if I just took care of a kid from 9 to 5 and they will go home because for these children they only pay 500 dollars. You got to buy them Pamper, you got to feed them. When I take her out, I pay. So what they pay, it really goes on the--clothes! Kids outgrow clothes, like. Like this, I mean my kid never outgrew. When Josh outgrew his clothes, Freddy wear it, you know. But nowadays, nowadays, it' ; s--and clothes is expensive. It' ; s not--years ago I used to make layaways. I used to make a layaway in Hearn' ; s for my kids when they were going to school. I would spend maybe, maybe a hundred and fifty dollars for my two kids and they would use that clothes for the whole year. Shoes would last them. Sneakers, well they cost ten dollars. Not now. Now kids wants Nike' ; s, they want--you go to 3rd Avenue it' ; s all sneaker store. And when one sneaker come out, I mean you see the line outside waiting to buy that sneaker? Amy Starecheski: Tell me about being a foster parent. Ana Soler: Oh that' ; s. That' ; s the best thing that I' ; ve done. Because, you know they, they give you, not all kids are bad. Not all kids--and not all kids--they, they come with a package. When you have this kid, when they first come into your home, they had no--they could go to bed whatever time they want, they jump around, they curse. Cause a lot of these kids, they--but I don' ; t know, I--they get attached to me. Every child that I had, I don' ; t know what it is- because, I' ; m strict with the kids, but I play with them. I kiss them. They say, " ; Grandma-" ; All of them- I have so many grandkids, they all call me grandma. Because they see my kids, they come and they call me grandma. So they figure that I' ; m grandma and they all call me grandma. They all call me Grandma. And when they leave, they cry. I have Patrick, that he was adopted two years ago. I have to go. Every time he has a play in school, I have to go. I have gone to his graduation from kindergarten, for his birthday. And last year, he graduated from first grade, and he was in the line with the graduates. He saw me, he started screaming, " ; Ana!" ; He got out of the line, and he went rushing to me, all the time. Every time he sees me, he comes running. Running, running and he almost knocked me down to the--because now he' ; s getting--now he' ; s tall. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: How many foster kids have you had? Ana Soler: All together, 12. I had. The first two I had them for about four years. And I had--you know they called, they me used to call me, " ; Miss Soler, it' ; s only going to be a few days," ; because I, after they took Zeus, I said, " ; No more." ; My kids, they do get attached to the kids too. So Josh told me, " ; Mommy, you know don' ; t do it no more. I mean, enjoy, you know, you' ; re 74 years old, start enjoying go--" ; . And I took a year off. I took a year off. And then for this little girl. I show you when you leave, I show you the picture. For this little girl, it was seven kids and they took them out of the home because they were selling drugs in the house. They have guns, they have everything in the house. And there was a raid. The narcotics. They came in in their house in the middle of the night. And they took all seven girls. All seven girls. They took them out. So then, the next day, they call me, around 5:00 in the afternoon. They said, " ; Mrs. Soler, please, we have seven kids. Look at the time, we have no home. Could you at least take two? Only for a few days." ; And I said, " ; You know that I' ; m retired already." ; Cause you had to--every year you have to--you have a license and you had to renew your license. And since I wasn' ; t going to do it no more I didn' ; t renew. And, I said, " ; You know, my license expired." ; And she said look, " ; You' ; ve been doing this for 17 years, you don' ; t even need a license. It' ; s only going to be for a few days." ; And I said, " ; You know what? I' ; m only going to take one child. I cannot take--" ; So she say, " ; OK" ; so she says--so--I have a lot of contacts, she say, " ; Please would you call a couple of the parents, you know, to see if they could take?" ; So I said, " ; Yeah I could call Carmen and I call another lady, and they took, each of them took two kids. So by 8:00, everybody got--had a home. So they brought the little girl--the little kid over here. And I say, " ; How long?" ; She says, " ; You know it' ; s going to be the weekend, you could have her until about next Monday. Monday we' ; ll get a home for her." ; I say, " ; Okay." ; Next Monday already the child was so attached to me. She was only here for four days and she was already so attached to me and they couldn' ; t find a home. So they say, " ; Tomorrow, tomorrow." ; The--little girl has been here a year. She' ; s been here for a year now. And this child, if I' ; m going to the bathroom, she goes. If anybody comes to my house, she will grab me and she will stay next to me. We go outside, she grab my hands, and she--the other day I was with Ana, and and Ana say, " ; You going with me to my house?" ; And she said, " ; No. I' ; m not going to your house, I' ; m going to my house." ; She said, " ; This is my house, my room." ; So, but they looking because they--all seven kids, they got to be adopted, so they' ; re looking for places for them to be adopted. But there' ; s so many. And you know, there' ; s so many kids there and the agency and the judge don' ; t see, a lot of the kids are mistreated. Even with the foster. There' ; s a lot of foster that I know they--that mistreat the kids. And why are you going to do a job like that? I mean they come from broken home. They' ; ve been abused. Zeus was abused by his stepfather. He was in the hospital for two weeks. He had four broken ribs. His ear, his eardrum was messed up. From the hospital, they brought that child to my house. He was here two and a half years. And when he left, he didn' ; t want to leave. He' ; s still, I see he' ; s still in the agency. He' ; s now with another parent. From my home, he has gone to four different homes. In a year, he' ; s gone to four different homes. He could have been here. He could have been here for years. I wouldn' ; t mind. He was such a brigh--he was in kindergarten and they were gonna skip him to second grade. Cause he is very smart. He' ; s not doing well. Amy Starecheski: Why? Ana Soler: Now he' ; s going from home to home. His mother, she went back to--back into drugs and everything. So he' ; s not going back home at all. He' ; s not going back home. And God knows what' ; s going to happen to such a nice and bright little kid. You know it' ; s like this, like the kid I have. She could be here for a couple years, I don' ; t mind. But already they judge say, " ; If she' ; s not going to adopt, you' ; ve got to look for an adoptive--" ; and I don' ; t want to. Not because I don' ; t love the child, it' ; s because I' ; m 75 years old already. The child is only three years old. When she' ; s ten years old, God knows where I' ; m gonna be. You know, it' ; s not fair for her. It' ; s not fair for the kid. So that' ; s how that' ; s how the--that' ; s the way I look at it. That' ; s the way--the agency said, " ; No, you' ; re still young, you could--" ; And that' ; s it, you know, once Stacy goes home, or goes to wherever she' ; s going to go, could be at the end of this month, could be next month, but that' ; s it. I need to go, I need to go to Puerto Rico for at least a month. My sister is really very sick and you know I don' ; t want nothing happening to her and me--and me being--not being able to be there for her, so. Amy Starecheski: I wanted to come back to something you said before that you notice more white people coming to this neighborhood, white people coming back. I just want to hear more about that. I mean obviously I' ; m a white person who' ; s come to this neighborhood. Ana Soler: But you' ; ve been living here a long time. Amy Starecheski: I have been living here a long time. But who--[mic noise] oh sorry--sorry. Like what do you see? What do you notice--what do you think about it? Ana Soler: What I notice, all the white people that are coming back, they' ; re coming around here, they all have big dogs, but they friendly--they tell you good morning. You know, when I go by, they very friendly. I like that. I--and there' ; s a lot of--you see them walking they dog and they' ; re not afraid. They' ; re not afraid to walk around here. So that' ; s a good, that' ; s a very good sign. Hopefully a lot of them are going to move into this new building. This new building, they' ; re going to be open soon. They' ; re going to be open within--a couple of--a couple of months they' ; re going to be open. So, that' ; s a good sign. Amy Starecheski: Do you worry at all that it' ; s going to be harder for poor people or for Puerto Rican people or Latinos to live in this neighborhood? Ana Soler: No, I don' ; t think so. We could get along. No, I don' ; t think so. I hope not anyway, but I don' ; t think so. Now, you know now, we are more educated and people get along. People are--even with the--there' ; s a lot Africans around here and we get along with them and they get along with us. So, in the school where my--where my kid go, there' ; s a lot of them. And we say, " ; Hi, bye, how you doing?" ; You know, so, I don' ; t see--I don' ; t--I hope--but I don' ; t think nothing of it. Yeah. They coming back. I heard people that they coming back because rent downtown are really--but rent out here are expensive too. Not that much--not like 5th Avenue--nothing like that. But I love my neighborhood. Amy Starecheski: When you first came here were the Irish and Italian people friendly to you? Ana Soler: Hm? Amy Starecheski: When you first came here, just walking around being on the street in the neighborhood were the Irish and Italian people friendly to you? Ana Soler: Not really. Not when I used to live in 146. No. No. They were not. Not at all. But now they' ; re--now the other white people that come around, I don' ; t know what nationality they are, but they are nice people. They talk to you, you know. Amy Starecheski: When you first came here were people actively not nice? Like how did they behave? How did you know how people felt? Ana Soler: It wasn' ; t that they weren' ; t nice but, you know like a lot of times--not now, but a lot of time--I guess, not to me, they never did it. But they see some other people and they would just cross the street. You know they would just, like ignore you. But I never, I never experienced that. I never did. So I cannot say that there were nasty to me, or, no. And like I said, right after I move I guess I chased them away because they--by 1965 there wasn' ; t that many people here. 1965 there weren' ; t. No. Amy Starecheski: I just remembered when we first met you told me a story about being I think in Florida, maybe, at the pool--and telling people-- Ana Soler: Yes. Amy Starecheski: Can you tell me that story again just for the tape? Ana Soler: Well, we were in the pool, you know, it was in Florida and we were playing, Ana was there. Mark was--Mark was about two years old. And this family--white people that came, nice, we started talking because I' ; m a talker. I go anywhere and I start talking. We talk and she told me where they came from and then she said, " ; And where are you from?" ; And I said, " ; I am from the South Bronx." ; " ; From the South Bronx? Hell' ; s Kitchen?" ; And I say, " ; You know what--and it' ; s true--there are nice people in the Bronx--not everybody is a killer. Not everybody in the--" ; but those people walk away so fast from me like--like I had the plague. They got out of the water. And I would see--and we were there for about ten days. And I used to see them and they didn' ; t even look at me again. Just because I' ; m from the South Bronx. And that' ; s how you know because I always say--I' ; m not ashamed to say I' ; m Puerto Rican. I' ; m not ashamed to say that I used to take a bath in Puerto Rico naked. Everybody used to do. And in the river. I see people that I know, they are from my home town. And they said, " ; Oh, we had refrigerator, we had this--" ; No you didn' ; t because you' ; re from my same age and we are from the same town, and everybody used to be poor. And we still poor. I' ; m not rich. We' ; re still poor. You know. I mean the first time I got into a car, it was to go to the airport to San Juan. And I was already nine years old. I used to see the car and I used to see ugly buses that they take people. I never got into a car. I never got--when I got--the first time I got into a car, oh my God it was like I hit the lotto. Yeah. Yeah. But- and when I saw a TV. And the TV was black and white. And my, I tell you, you know I would--I could nev--my father died 52- 54 years ago. And it was like my father died yesterday. I will never forget my father was so--he was a genius. The TV was black and--it was black and white. There was no color TV. He used to buy the colored--the plastic in color in blue and red. He used to put it on the TV! (laughs) Who would think of doing this like that? He used to do that! (Laughs) And we had colored TV! (Laughs) I tell you about that was--my father he was a genius. And my father, he used to sing beautiful. He used to sing. I mean like, he used to tell us story. You know, he used to punish us, but my father wasn' ; t abusive. Now, the thing that he did, it would have been abuse. But we never saw it as abuse. Never. And we used to respect and we used to love, even you know, it' ; s sad to say, but even more than my mom. You know it' ; s--I love my mom very much and I' ; ve spent her last 20 years, I spend with her. But my father, my father was--when I first had my period, there was nobody to tell. He was the one that knew. The first person that taught me how to cook, how to do everything, it was my father. And yes, he was strict, but he was funny. My father wasn' ; t--and everybody loved--everybody in the block. When my father died, the man--we put him in 116th, the [unclear]. It was an Italian funeral home, and the director, he says, " ; In the years that I' ; ve been here, I have never seen so many people." ; --went to my father wake. To the cemetery, there was 52 cars. And my father was buried in Long Island because he was a veteran. There were 52 cars went to that, to his burial. I mean and because whatever my father had it was everybody' ; s. Nobody went hungry when my father was alive. Never. Anybody. And my house, my apartment, it was a hotel. Because anybody that didn' ; t have a place to stay, they would say, " ; Go to Nando." ; They used to call him Nando. " ; Go to Nando. You will find--even if you have to sleep in the floor." ; My father was that kind of, my father was that kind of person, you know. But he was funny. He was funny. He punish us, but my brothers, they always admire--they always say- you know my brothers, they' ; ve been married 50- 52- There was not a divorce in my brothers. No. They live, they, my oldest brother that is 79 years old, he' ; s been married for 59 years. My other brother that he--his wife passed away two years ago, they were married 50 years. Chico never marry. Chico never marry. Carlito- he was married for many years. I would have been married 52 years, 53 years if my husband was still alive. You know they, all my nephews are good kids, they had nice education, you know. And it was thanks to what our father taught us, you know and we--and my kids are the same way with their kids. They strong but they, you know. And my, my boys are not--Fernando was married 15 years, but then they got divorced. He' ; s got two kids and he' ; s got his first daughter. That she' ; s about- she' ; s 32 years old. In his first, his first marriage. Then he divorced. He lives by himself. Josh, he' ; s like his father, he could never, he could never be married because he likes to dominate. So he lives by--on his own. He lives in Albany. He' ; s got beautiful apartment. You go to his house, you could eat off the floor. I have taken my kids over there. I took Zeus, the first time I took Zeus, my son, " ; No he can' ; t touch there. He can' ; t touch that, he can' ; t--" ; I say, " ; you know what I' ; m not bringing you my kids no more here." ; He' ; s very very very very clean. And I thank my father for that. I thank my father. Maybe other people will say oh, your father, but no my father was not abusive. My father was--he knew what he was doing with his. He was alone with five, six kids. You know it wasn' ; t like you with one kid. Six kids. And then he worked. And then he got that accident that, he was for about six months in a hospital. And then when he came home he was in a bed. For almost a year we had to bathe him. And we were young kids. We were young. We were very young. The oldest was Frank. He was 18. So you know, we were all in that range. We all a year apart. So we were all in that in the range. I was 13, and so you know. And even though he was like that he was- still would punish us (laughs). In the wheelchair. But the good thing about that when he passed, when he got that accident, they gave him eighty thousand dollars. So we got a big apartment because we used to live in a one bedroom. We got a big apartment, right in the barrio, he didn' ; t want to move from there. We all have--me and my sister had our own room and the other kids had their own room. He had his room. And he sent us. He gave us a gift. He sent us to Puerto Rico, all the brothers, to see my mom. He helped my mom to finish paying off her house. Yes, yeah. My father, he died with nothing because he gave everything away but, he died happy. My father died. And he always used to say, " ; I don' ; t want to die in a hospital." ; He always used to say, " ; I don' ; t want to die in a hospital. I want to die in my home." ; And that day he got up, he told my sister [who] used to live in the same building. I was already married, I was in the Bronx. He told my sister, " ; Irma, do me a cup of coffee." ; And you know what, my sister went to the kitchen, she came back with a cup of coffee, my father was dead already. It was a big shock to my sis--he was dead already. Just like that, and sitting down, he died. Sitting in his bed. And that' ; s what he wanted. That' ; s what he wanted. Mhm. But we live a full life. We can' ; t complain. We were poor. That' ; s why I say, I don' ; t have--I wasn' ; t rich when I--when I was young and I' ; m not gonna be rich now. I have enough to live and that' ; s it. Amy Starecheski: I have to record a little bit of like the sound of the room to use when I' ; m editing the piece. Ana Soler: Mhm. Amy Starecheski: So, I' ; m gonna just--we have to just sit quietly for like 20, 30 seconds and I want you to think if there' ; s anything that I should have asked but I didn' ; t ask, or anything that you want to say more about, or anything that you want to add and we can add it on at the end. I can also come back and do another day, too. But let' ; s--we' ; ll take a minute and let it record the quiet, and I' ; ll think if there' ; s anything that I wanted to ask that I forgot to. [Pause] I can hear all the construction out there (laughs). Ana Soler: I know. Amy Starecheski: I realize--I think I said the wrong name for the building where your mother lived, it' ; s the senior center on 138th. Right, what' ; s the name of it? Ana Soler: No, my mother lived in Mitchell. Amy Starecheski: She lived in Mitchell. Oh ok. Ana Soler: Right across. Amy Starecheski: Ok. Nevermind. Yeah I think I thought it was the senior housing. Ana Soler: There' ; s the senior--285. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Ok. Ana Soler: That' ; s beautiful. You' ; ve never been inside? It' ; s beautiful. Amy Starecheski: No I haven' ; t. Yeah. So is there anything else that you wanted to say, anything you wanted to add? Ana Soler: No but I would like one day you come, have coffee and I will tell you so many stories that I did not record. We' ; ll have a nice time. Amy Starecheski: That sounds lovely. Ana Soler: Because I got a lot of good memories. (Laughs) You will laugh a little bit. Amy Starecheski: I do. That sounds really, really nice. I thought of one thing that I wanted to ask: the people that you hang around with, your friends and family, do they talk about gentrification in this neighborhood? Ana Soler: No, no. Amy Starecheski: That' ; s interesting. That' ; s good to know. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. It' ; s been so fun getting to know you a little bit and hearing about your family. And I' ; ll send you the audio and you can listen and then you can also share it with anyone you want. Ana Soler: Yeah my kids don' ; t want to hear (laughs). Amy Starecheski: They will. All right thank you. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Soler_Ana_20180613.xml Soler_Ana_20180613.xml
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Title
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Ana Soler Oral History Interview
Date
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2018-06-13
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audio
Subject
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Ana Soler was born in Puerto Rico in 1943. She grew up without a toilet or refrigerator, and by the time she was six she was cooking for the family while her mother worked in a cigar factory. Her father was in the Army. She migrated to El Barrio in 1953. She remembers midnight Christmas parandas and a close neighborhood culture. Her father was paralyzed in a factory accident when she was a teenager, and she dropped out of school to care for him. She moved to Mott Haven, 139th Street and Cypress Avenue, in 1965, right after she got married (after an extended courtship) to a musician she met at a dance. They had three children and moved to Millbrook Houses. Against her husband’s wishes, she went to work at a dry cleaners at 145th Street and Willis Avenue, where she worked for 27 years, until the repeated robberies got to be too much for her. She was involved with local youth baseball and the Catholic church, mainly St. Pius, until it closed. She now lives in Mitchel Houses and attends St. Jerome’s. At age 76, she still cares for foster children, and visits housebound sick and elderly people in her spare time. She loves eating in restaurants and going to the casino with her best friend (also named Ana) and she loves New York City, especially in the winter.
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview Ana Soler discusses life as a migrant from Puerto Rico to New York City and Puerto Rican culture in the city, growing up in a working class family with a strict father, and raising children in New York City. Particular detail is given to family relationships, such as how she met her husband and the trajectory their marriage and also her close relationship with her father. She also discusses her involvement with the Church and gentrification over time in the neighborhood.
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Carol Zakaluk
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https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Zakaluk_Carol_20180221_session3.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Zakaluk_Carol_20180221_session3 2:02:16 Columbia Oral History MA Program Carol Zakaluk Amy Starecheski 1:|1(4)|25(10)|36(15)|46(2)|56(11)|66(3)|75(6)|89(12)|99(7)|115(8)|126(11)|137(6)|147(10)|157(10)|169(5)|179(14)|190(14)|200(9)|211(6)|221(7)|234(8)|245(13)|262(16)|274(2)|288(2)|301(11)|313(11)|324(9)|336(7)|347(9)|370(7)|381(8)|401(7)|416(2)|427(15)|439(8)|452(7)|464(2)|483(13)|493(9)|506(2)|516(7)|526(10)|536(8)|550(8)|564(6)|576(6)|586(6)|606(6)|618(15)|633(9)|645(5)|662(4)|675(12)|687(6)|704(13)|717(2)|727(4)|737(11)|750(12)|760(7)|776(11)|787(12)|798(10)|808(2)|820(3)|829(9)|842(16)|857(8)|867(14)|879(11)|892(2)|905(2)|919(7)|936(4)|951(6)|971(13)|985(3)|997(6)|1008(4)|1021(2)|1030(9)|1044(15)|1058(6)|1069(4)|1079(8)|1095(11)|1106(3)|1120(15)|1134(11)|1147(10)|1178(10)|1193(8)|1207(8)|1218(13)|1232(2)|1243(8)|1254(9)|1267(6)|1277(11)|1289(2)|1301(9)|1312(3)|1323(2)|1336(9)|1351(4)|1366(4)|1378(3)|1389(2)|1400(12)|1412(8)|1429(12)|1446(4)|1456(8)|1466(12)|1482(4)|1492(12)|1523(2)|1533(15)|1566(7)|1593(3)|1604(2)|1623(2) 0 SoundCloud audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/1426385623& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=true& ; show_comments=false& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=false& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; Carol Zakaluk: I haven& ; apos ; t prepared a thing. Amy Starecheski: That& ; apos ; s totally fine. I - don& ; apos ; t - don& ; apos ; t feel nervous at all. I have tons of things to ask you about. The only thing that you have to tell me to start is what& ; apos ; s today& ; apos ; s date? It& ; apos ; s the twenty -- Carol Zakaluk: First. Amy Starecheski: First. ok. Carol Zakaluk: Today is the 21st. Amy Starecheski: February 21st 2018. This is our first interview in 2018. This is Amy Starechski interviewing Carol Zakaluk for the Mott Haven Oral History Project. And this is our third session. So we were just saying that you don& ; apos ; t have as much content prepared for today which just fine and great. And it& ; apos ; s a special treat for me to interview someone whose been so well-prepared so I& ; apos ; m used to having to - to having to take the lead more. So one thing I was thinking I love to hear you talk about is a little bit more about Brook Park. You talked about Broo Park in the last interview on your involvement on the board. And I was actually listening to your interview yesterday while I was over there. You know I had on my headphones that are shovelling wood chips and I was thinking what a special place it is and how someone listening you know, you& ; apos ; re talking to me and we both know that place you say, " ; Brook Park," ; and all these images come into my head. But imagine you& ; apos ; re talking to somebody, even like, you know 50 years from now who& ; apos ; s never been to New York. Can you describe Brook Park for me? Carol Zakaluk: Interesting question. I would say that Brook Park, first of all physically, is shaped like a T. It has a long part on 141st Street and it has a kind of a short - shorter part down by 141st- by 140th Street. It& ; apos ; s between 140th Street and 141st Street between Brook Avenue and Willis Avenue and it& ; apos ; s across the street from two different or three different schools, two or three different schools, there are many schools in the neighborhood. I would say it& ; apos ; s - it started out as a weedy, empty lot when the Cherry Tree Association people got a hold of it and it had heroin addicts that hung out in it and they kind of started working with the people that were in it and some local people and they began clearing the very tall weeds out of it and eventually got it to be a really wonderful community garden in which many, many things happen, including beekeeping and gardening, both for youths who are one step away from being incarcerated, it& ; apos ; s called an alternative to incarceration program. There is gardening for the community on the south side of the park. There is a chicken coop. There is a greenhouse where local high school students and grade school students can start seedlings. There& ; apos ; s a grape arbor section which we hope to get a nice new pergola for. There are canoes and kayaks. I think we& ; apos ; re up to at least 10. I don& ; apos ; t know how many there are due a lot. There& ; apos ; s a lot of them and they are sometimes kind of parked on a canoe trailer so that they can be have a car hooked up to it and taken over to the waterfront and sometimes in the past we& ; apos ; ve taken canoes and kayaks by bicycle to the local waterfront which has been much more daunting but certainly possible. There& ; apos ; s a big mural with Native American dancing pictured on it and it says & ; apos ; Friends of Brook Park.& ; apos ; What else is in there? There& ; apos ; s a sculpture. Linda Cunningham, a local retired arts professor, has a large piece that& ; apos ; s made out of recovered industrial debris. It& ; apos ; s kind of bent in a very interesting, I find them pleasant shapes, especially the way she has that kind of parked, buried in the garden. And I watched her put them in so very fond of her work. That& ; apos ; s on the northeast corner of the park. There are trees in the northeast corner of the park and there& ; apos ; s a big open space in the northwest corner of the park where often people wind up being audience if there& ; apos ; s a performance. Once a year there& ; apos ; s an arts festival led by the community led arts festival which draws 100 people- I& ; apos ; m going to say- I think that might be kind of ambitious. If it& ; apos ; s raining certainly fewer than that and I& ; apos ; m slightly disappointed with the quality of the art that we get to exhibit. We& ; apos ; ve also tried to have art events with - using artists who are more well- well-established, less emerging and we& ; apos ; ve had performance art. We& ; apos ; ve had local high school students make giant photographs of themselves and put them on the fence and invite all of their friends and family- some of the photographs were of their family members who were inspiring. What other arts have we had we had? We& ; apos ; ve had Columbia Fierro, who teaches yoga at Columbia University, come and weave fabric through the trees in a homage to Hurricane Sandy and the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy& ; apos ; s recovery. We also have Native American dancers who come and use that central, open space periodically for festivals and there& ; apos ; s a large teepee that comes every- not every Thanksgiving, but used to come pretty regularly, around Thanksgiving time. And a Native American elder from New Mexico, I think, from the Diné tribe, which in their language, is the same as Navajo, would come and hold ceremonies in the teepee and local classes were also encouraged to come during the day and see what it was like inside a real teepee and have a class inside the teepee. The teepee is really precious and wonderful thing. So that alone makes it a very unique Community Garden in New York City. That variety of things that goes on. Did I leave anything out? Amy Starecheski: No. No. That& ; apos ; s great. What do you- When you spend time there what do you like to do? Carol Zakaluk: Mostly when I spend time there it& ; apos ; s for meetings with other people and even if I& ; apos ; m going for a purpose, for a specific reason, to measure the fence, for some grant that we& ; apos ; re writing or you know to look at some plants that, we recently had some wonderful - the beds were used to incubate plants for Mary Mattingly& ; apos ; s floating food forest called " ; Swale," ; which is an exciting citywide project. Mary Mattingley rented a retired barge and began to get money from all over the place to create this floating food forest that she would be able to put- bring to all five boroughs. So we had maybe 15 or 20 different plants that would become bushes and trees on her barge later and there& ; apos ; s a tiny little sign on her barge that says, " ; thank you, Brook Park." ; But I& ; apos ; d be going to look at Mary& ; apos ; s plants in her absence and I& ; apos ; d get to talking to people. Whoever is there often seems to be very interesting and welcoming and open to chatting. It& ; apos ; s almost like going to a coffeehouse and sitting down with some really interesting, random people and feeling relaxed and being able to talk to them. So every time I go I have an interesting conversation with somebody, which is even more memorable than whatever it is that I& ; apos ; m doing. Yeah. Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; m interested in- you know, you talked about how when you stand on your corner you can still see the neighborhood before the projects were built and you remember when the projects were built. I just want to hear more about that - like what you remember about that process, both what it was like and how people were talking about it like what your family. You know it& ; apos ; s right at the end of your block, you know what your family talked about it, what your parents or your grandparents thought about it, what you thought about it as a kid. Carol Zakaluk: Well it was 1960 when they began tearing things down and it was really noisy. It was very disruptive because our walking paths were completely disrupted by that. There was construction, you know barricades, we couldn& ; apos ; t go in this tremendous section of the neighborhood that had been where we wandered in our path to the subway and we couldn& ; apos ; t do that anymore. So it felt really disorienting and the light was different. We could suddenly see a lot more sunlight and in some ways for a New Yorker, particularly, I don& ; apos ; t know, I& ; apos ; m the kind of person that really likes shade and I like the kind of feeling of being protected from the wind or the weather in bad weather. So I felt very vulnerable to the fact that the buildings that I loved weren& ; apos ; t there anymore. There was no greenery. I mean even when the projects were finished, the trees took 20 years to grow or 15 years to grow, so there were years when there were these tiny little spindly plants and no grass. And I thought that the projects themselves were not charming. They themselves are very slabby. They& ; apos ; re at an interesting angle compared to the grid pattern that was there before. But I was very deeply unhappy. My parents were not excited about there being new projects, they didn& ; apos ; t like the noise, they didn& ; apos ; t like the problems. But, I guess, I don& ; apos ; t remember to tell you the truth what their opinions were exactly. But I think I may have already told you my grandparents- Grandma Zakaluk and Grandpa Zakaluk lived in the corner building across the street and they lived on the third floor and at some point when the projects were complete, Grandma Zakaluk received- and Grandpa, he was still alive- received a letter that asked if they wanted to relocate to one of the projects and the enticement was elevator because they were both fairly elderly, had a little difficulty coming up and down the steps, particularly Grandma, and so they said, " ; yes." ; After three years or so, I think they let the projects get started, almost like to get the bugs out of them, to get the kinks out of them, so that they could figure out whatever ways of being, ways of administration. She just wanted it to take its time and when they really felt that they couldn& ; apos ; t do the steps anymore they moved to 225 Willis Avenue in the projects, in Mitchell houses and they were happy that they had an elevator, but they almost never went out after that even though they had the elevator. Grandma Zakaluk didn& ; apos ; t have a reason to go out. She qualified for a home health care worker so she had somebody to do grocery shopping for her and she went out maybe twice a year on a nice day. She went down and sat on the bench and talked to her lady friends. Maybe once a year after her husband died she would go to - ask to go on his birthday to the cemetery to visit him. And those were always very memorable days for us kids, grandkids, because she never came out of the building, so we would sometimes go with her to the cemetery to experience see grandma out in the wind. She& ; apos ; s a very dear, wonderful lady, she& ; apos ; s the person Ann is named after. So I was very, very fond of her. I think she also was skeptical about the project& ; apos ; s coming, but the other thing about the projects that she liked, when she finally moved to them was that she had a better view of the neighborhood out the window. So being sort of a self-made shut-in, she could see everybody& ; apos ; s comings and goings at her kitchen window and she knew when you sat with her in the kitchen, she& ; apos ; d say, " ; in five minutes this guy with this little dachshund is going to come around the corner. He& ; apos ; s going to stop right there and light a cigarette," ; and like a detective, almost on the stakeout, only she knew- she didn& ; apos ; t know anybody& ; apos ; s name, but she knew exactly who would come when and who was a good guy who was a bad guy. She just ate that stuff up having been a grocer for years and years and years and years and knowing all the people on the street and what languages they spoke and what they wanted and chatting with them about their families. She was very much a people person even though she didn& ; apos ; t talk to too many people in her older life before that was your grandparents social life like in this neighborhood. Grandpa, yeah. I could tell you about Grandpa Zakaluk, who did go out. Grandma Zakaluk had people in the apartment buildings who were her friends who would come in and they& ; apos ; d have tea and cookies and they would talk about either the news or their families. That was Grandma Zakaluk. Grandpa Zakaluk would go every day outside to the corner of the bodega and place numbers, play numbers, or he would play all while sitting on milk crates not dominoes. Never played dominoes but he would play card games and he would always be home by 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon. But every day this was his routine and sometimes he would also play chess and that he would either go to Manhattan to play chess in the park with his buddies or he would go to Pulaski Park and play chess. There used to be chess tables there. I have some photos of him playing chess with my little - my older brother looking over his shoulder and if I can find one I& ; apos ; ll throw it in the archive too. Grandma Beckhoff, who lived in this house- Grandpa Beckhoff, I can& ; apos ; t tell you about his social life because he died when I was one. But Grandma Beckoff belonged to every - churches used to have clubs for all ages. But what happened was it was mostly seniors. There would be the Tuesday Club at the Episcopal Church and there would be the Tea Club at the Immaculate Conception and another one at Marble Collegiate. So depending on what day of the week it was she would go downtown and she would have tea with three or four ladies that she liked and - or she would go to the zoo with the ladies she had met at the Wednesday Club or sometimes she would visit people in hospitals and bring flowers or candy or just see if she could help take dictation or read to them or people who were sick at home. These programs also that she got into through churches. She also had a circle of people that she knew - I guess that must have also possibly been through church - but I remember them coming here at this table and playing canasta. There would be- the piano teacher who used to teach my sister and brother was a friend of my grandmother& ; apos ; s - possibly because she also gave my grandmother piano lessons. There was a piano in the parlor for a long time and so - what was that woman& ; apos ; s name? Florence Clapsaddle [laughs]. Florence Clapsaddle would come here and have tea and play canasta. And there was this very handsome, older man also because Grandpa Beckhoff was very, you long gone. And this very handsome man, his name was Alexander, like Alexander ragtime- Alexander& ; apos ; s a Ragtime man. That& ; apos ; s how I remember he was Alexander. He would come in his full suit and tie and he would sit right where you& ; apos ; re sitting and the table then was a big, round, oak wooden table and they would play canasta and if I was being babysat at those particular hours I would learn canasta too. So for many, like I don& ; apos ; t know three years, when I was old enough to know canasta but not old enough to have like branched out and not needing babysitting anymore I would play with them and they wouldn& ; apos ; t let me win, I would just sometimes win on my own. Amy& ; apos ; s laughing - yeah no this is very- that was a very sweet little memory. Yeah they were very sweet people, very nice, and it was great for me. This is an insight that I had relistening to the first interview. I think one of the reasons that I really loved my parents, all three of us kids really had no problem living so close to and evolving with our parents. One of the reasons is because we saw them interact with their parents and saw how forgiving they were of all of the gaps between the old country and the new country and different language. Ukrainian and English, Grandma Zakaluk could never understand how any of us went anywhere- why didn& ; apos ; t we stay close to home here in the Bronx? There was a college here in the Bronx, right? Why did we need to go to college in Vermont or in upstate or wherever we went? So I think that really made us very tolerant. They were being tolerant. We were tolerant, too and was kind of like really nice people don& ; apos ; t do that so much anymore, live close to their grandparents, have extended families, small village kind of thing. Amy Starecheski: As the projects are kind of settling into the neighborhood, did you- what were the relationship like between people living in the projects and people living in the old apartment buildings. Was there any distinction? Or just generally what was that like? Carol Zakaluk: I did not feel any differences because I went to school at P.S. 154, the very first year that it opened and that was a school that had been built on the project& ; apos ; s property and I think as I told you before I had gone to a school not on project& ; apos ; s property, and then they decided that when the projects were ready they cut our block in half and they said, " ; OK all you have to go to the Project School." ; And I was terrified but when I got there it was scaled to kids and the ceiling was lower and the colors were brighter and they had sinks that we could actually reach ourselves. We didn& ; apos ; t need a leg up or to stand on a stool or anything to get to the water fountain. The teachers also seem more liberal to me and more forgiving. The teachers in the old school would practically wash your mouth out with soap if you said even close to a bad word which is a very old - old school thing to do. So amongst the kids, most of them came from the projects, but some of them came from these outlying, older buildings and we didn& ; apos ; t know any differences. And I can& ; apos ; t tell you about the parents. I was too young- age 5. I didn& ; apos ; t - I wasn& ; apos ; t aware of that. Amy Starecheski: Over time, have you seen that evolve? Carol Zakaluk: The differences between the people in the projects now? Amy Starecheski: Mhm. Carol Zakaluk: I think the general conception I think that people in the projects wish that they had houses. I think that they- from what I have seen is the people that come from the projects and come out from the projects into the side streets like mine. One of the reasons they do so is because for example now there are surveillance cameras in front of the projects and they& ; apos ; re not allowed to drink or misbehave in front of the projects so they come down the side street where nobody is watching them. So if they& ; apos ; re drug dealers they- they love it when there& ; apos ; s an empty building on a side street or an empty stoop and they can kind of set up shop and there& ; apos ; s no threat to them being evicted. I& ; apos ; ve had friends who lived in projects over the course of my growing up and they have been very nice families with very nice apartments and pets in neat and clean and aspirations just like our family. No difference. So I think I& ; apos ; m talking about the visible people who are the ne& ; apos ; er-do-wells and the ones that you would notice more. Other than that, I think people that live in projects are more tolerant of noise because the walls in the projects are very thin. Grandma Zakaluk, for example, had a very noisy family living next door with three or four teenagers in a relatively small apartment, and many times we were over there and the radio would be blasting or the family would be talking loudly- not having arguments, just talking, and we would say, " ; Grandma Zakaluk, are you sure you want to live here? You know this is kind of a lot to have to put up with." ; And she was so adamant about wanting her own place, and her own key in her own door, and nobody knew when she was coming or going. We all knew she wasn& ; apos ; t going anywhere. She would say- she would say, " ; I like my privacy." ; [In accent] " ; I want to stay here. Clara, Steve, thank you for offering, but I want to stay here." ; So that& ; apos ; s how that would play itself out. Amy Starecheski: I just thought that- it just made me think of something else. Oh, when you were- Do you remember your parents or your grandparents talking about the demographic changes in the neighborhood as it went from being a white neighborhood to a Latino neighborhood basically? Carol Zakaluk: Yes. They discussed whether or not it was a - they would discuss in front of us and out loud whether it was important to them to move or not. And my mother, as I& ; apos ; ve already explained, became - I think I explained - was the Puerto Rican and Black culture teacher. Amy Starecheski: Oh, no I did not - Carol Zakaluk: I did not mention that. OK. When my mother went back to teaching and if she had been a principal and you know she always had wanted to be a teacher and it was absolutely meant to be a teacher. When she decided to go back to work which was partly to help me pay for- help the family pay for my private school at Rhodes school on 54th Street in Manhattan, she decided- " ; OK now it& ; apos ; s time Carole& ; apos ; s 13 I& ; apos ; m not needed at home so much I& ; apos ; ll go back to work" ; and the local school was P.S. 30, which is very near Brook Park, and she went in and they said, " ; Gee Clara we& ; apos ; d love to have you. But our only open position is for black and Puerto Rican culture teacher." ; And so she said, " ; well my degree is in history you know that& ; apos ; s that& ; apos ; s a good fit. It& ; apos ; s a cluster position. So I wouldn& ; apos ; t have to have one class. I would possibly have a room and they would come to me or else I would float and go through all the classes three to -third grade to fifth grade." ; They didn& ; apos ; t have black and Puerto Rican culture for under third grade. So she thought that was ideal. And they said, " ; if you& ; apos ; ll agree to make a couple of trips to Puerto- Puerto Rico and learn some Spanish you can have a job because we would love to have somebody in the neighborhood. We don& ; apos ; t have hardly anyone in the neighborhood." ; And once my mother started doing that, they absolutely loved her and never look back. And she was one of the only teachers and I forget if I said this, because she lived so close to the school, if there was a snow day, none of the teachers would come in. And my mother would come in because she was only four blocks away and they would give her all of the abandoned classes in the auditorium. And my mother would have an auditorium full of kids who had no teacher that day so she would show a Disney movie. And then she would teach songs and then she would read stories or you know make up stories which she was excellent at. And she when she left the job they gave her a plaque that said Storyteller Emeritus because she& ; apos ; s excellent at making up stories. So that& ; apos ; s- that& ; apos ; s that story. She loved going to Puerto Rico twice. She never succeeded in memorizing any Spanish whatsoever. And I used to help her with her report cards when she had to write them in English and Spanish because I was studying Spanish at Rhodes and was doing pretty well. What else can I tell you about that? Amy Starecheski: Do they have like a - Do they have an explanation for why the neighborhood was changing? Carol Zakaluk: I think they explained that there was a major ingress of Puerto Ricans. I don& ; apos ; t remember if at first it was Dominicans also with this is just what they- their view of it was. And my mother, being a very Christian person, would say, " ; whoever they are, they& ; apos ; re people, and they need to be taught too. And they need a place to go too. And it& ; apos ; s very inconvenient for us to move." ; In fact my father thought that also. " ; And so if it& ; apos ; s OK with you guys we& ; apos ; re not going anywhere." ; But they also thought that because we were not landmarked yet, they saw all the buildings that had been what they used to say was taken by the city. This was their phrase they& ; apos ; d say, " ; those buildings over there, they were taken by the city and they made it - those people were pretty good deal to take their buildings and they had to. They were forced to move somewhere else. Our building block will be taken soon too. You& ; apos ; ll see. And when they take the block we& ; apos ; ll move. But we don& ; apos ; t really want to move." ; This was the other - other part of the story. So and as I& ; apos ; ve already explained they would have had to move both parents, both mothers who were the parents that were left by that time. So I think my father, if you want me to be really, absolutely truthful, my father did not like taxi drivers. He didn& ; apos ; t like some of the behavior of motorists or people on the block but he never said, " ; I hate niggers or I hate spicks" ; or any of those things that he could have said. He didn& ; apos ; t. He just would say that behavior was wrong. " ; You shouldn& ; apos ; t stop your car in the middle of the street to talk to your friends on the sidewalk when the light is with you. You shouldn& ; apos ; t steal power from a pole to go to to power your your Casita in the garden. You shouldn& ; apos ; t break the law. You shouldn& ; apos ; t litter." ; You know he really hated some of the quality of life things that we had on a day to day basis all around us. And he was very verbal about that but he never said it was due to race. So. Amy Starecheski: So your mom was at the school from & ; apos ; 68 on, about? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: When you were 13? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Well yes pretty much until her retirement. And she didn& ; apos ; t stop teaching at any point. Amy Starecheski: And were there other white families that stayed? Do you know any other white families that stayed? Carol Zakaluk: They aren& ; apos ; t still here. The only person that I know of is Penny Lenny who have already told you about who lives on Alexander Avenue because she was married to somebody named Lenny last name and that person& ; apos ; s brother was in a like not gang. My brother was in a gang, a group of boys that he played with, a lot and that boy was Bosi Lenny whose real name is John Lenny and Bosi lived on this block and I can tell you if you need to know which building I think 410, something like that. And so Bosi has been around once to visit. He now lives in the D.C. area and Penny Lenny maintains her property on Alexander Avenue. But I don& ; apos ; t really know her. I& ; apos ; ve had two very brief conversations with her. There was one white family when I was growing up who my girl scout leader who lived on this block. Charlotte Adkins, have I mentioned her? I have? Mrs. Adkins now lives in Brooklyn and I have seen her both at my mom& ; apos ; s funeral, which was sometime in the past 10 years, and she lives in Brooklyn and is doing very well and very happy. I think I sent her a photograph of the wonderful children& ; apos ; s playground that now exists where I used to bake pies with her in her living room. So I can stand by the seesaw and remember being with Mrs. Adkins baking apple pies it& ; apos ; s kind of cute. Amy Starecheski: That& ; apos ; s amazing. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah it is. It& ; apos ; s kind of nice. Amy Starecheski: When your parents said that the city would take the - take that take the - Carol Zakaluk: Block. Amy Starecheski: Take the block, were they thinking of like the taking- like where the projects were built that the that the city had taken those how like what did they mean by that? Carol Zakaluk: They meant that the city would make us a deal because they would decide that they wanted to build something else here a social services agency or more projects and they would come and give us a decent deal on buying the houses and then we would move. But there was never any discussion of where we would move. I - I& ; apos ; d like to note, you know they didn& ; apos ; t have a longing to go anywhere. In fact they didn& ; apos ; t express a longing to be in Southampton until the opportunity came that Uncle Charlie made them the deal. " ; You can buy my house for half price when I die if you would like." ; Then, they wanted to go to Southampton because it was within their means. I guess previously to that they would not have contemplated moving to Southampton. Amy Starecheski: You mentioned the landmarking. Tell me how like what that - what the significance that that was for your family. Carol Zakaluk: My parents were very excited about landmarking. They thought that the houses deserved to be landmarked and they felt that if the buildings were landmark then we would end the conversations about the city will take the block and that we would have more stability. But mostly I think they felt that the buildings were really special and that they deserved to be preserved and given a place in a book and on the roles of landmarks in New York. I don& ; apos ; t think I told you this story about how I used to get dressed for school in the main floor front room and one day I was there getting dressed for the third, fourth or fifth grade. I don& ; apos ; t remember exactly. Maybe it was junior high school even I don& ; apos ; t remember how old I was but there was a person lurking out front and he had a camera that he was white and he had like casual kind of formal wear on like he was working and I thought he& ; apos ; s kind of crouching behind cars he& ; apos ; s taking pictures of our house and I wonder what he& ; apos ; s doing, " ; mom don& ; apos ; t you think you should go out there and ask him why he& ; apos ; s taking pictures of our house?" ; " ; Oh I don& ; apos ; t have time to go out and ask him" ; and then he was gone. And then like within three or four years from that I was browsing in a bookstore and this was after we were landmarked. I opened this book looking for a birthday present for my brother and I just opened the book and I thought, " ; Oh my goodness. There& ; apos ; s our house. That& ; apos ; s the photo that that guy was taking because that was exactly the angle that would have been right for where he was crouching in the street behind this car. Oh that& ; apos ; s what that was." ; He was from the Landmarks Commission. So anyway, little story. I was the only one to go to the landmarks designation meeting from the neighborhood. And I brought a balloon. And when they- they declared the Berteen block landmarked, I stood up [laughs] and I clapped. Yes. And they did the Estee Piano Factory in the same day and later the head of that committee Lee Weintraub is the person that I wound up working with very closely at City College. When I did projects on getting legal waterfront access, so I didn& ; apos ; t know him at that time but there I was in the room with him. And so that was kind of a neat connection later. Amy Starecheski: Was your family, or was anyone you know involved in like in pushing for landmarking or asking for landmarking, or? Carol Zakaluk: Nobody in my family was. But I do believe that there were some people who came who knew people at the Landmarks Commission who were friends of my friend from college at SUNY Binghamton and she came and said, " ; oh this is a wonderful has it really should be landmarked. You really ought to meet somebody Eberly." ; I can& ; apos ; t remember what her name was and she came and met us and talked with us and asked if we would like to be the family that was the liaison between the Landmarks Commission and Burteen block. And we said we& ; apos ; d be happy to but so we got a complimentary membership and we got literature that we shared with a few neighbors that we thought would be interested in that. And I attended some meetings on what land marking meant and I passed out literature to see if I could get people to go. They had the meeting said St. Germans. Mostly they told us things like, " ; Don& ; apos ; t change your facade without permission but anything you want to do to the rear of the house probably won& ; apos ; t bother you with." ; Since then I have heard of a lot more strict land marking enforcement on Alexander Avenue than here on the Burteen Block. And I don& ; apos ; t know why that is exactly. It& ; apos ; s certainly not fair. But people on Alexander have gotten way more tickets and have been called to task a lot more for their buildings. Amy Starecheski: About when was it that this block was landmarked? Carol Zakaluk: Sorry I can& ; apos ; t tell you without looking. Amy Starecheski: Like what- what decade? Carol Zakaluk: It must& ; apos ; ve been this - the 70s. Amy Starecheski: Ok. Do you have a sense of whether your family thought that it would affect the value of the property like the resale value of the property to be landmarked? Carol Zakaluk: My father thought that there would be drawbacks. He thought that nobody- that fewer people would be interested once they found out that you couldn& ; apos ; t do whatever you wanted to the facade and that you had to get a particular kind of window. But I think when we first went into it we didn& ; apos ; t really understand the difference in cost between Anderson windows and final windows. But as I said nobody has really called anybody to task on this block. There have been houses here painted pink and light blue for a while and that is certainly not a landmarking color. They have not been stopped. So I have the feeling that we& ; apos ; re being treated very leniently. That may not be for much longer. You know certain things were grandfathered in. Like if your house was blue when it became landmarked they would allow it to stay blue. At least for a while. I don& ; apos ; t think that you immediately had to sandblast off all that paint. Amy Starecheski: And so you moved back into this house and you came back here with Ann and your parents were next door and then they moved. Can you tell me -that you talked about cleaning out your parents house and that that was a lot of work and we were doing it when you had a small child. Can you tell me the rest of the story about the process of taking that house over? Carol Zakaluk: Okay. I believe that what happened was during the process of cleaning it out it occurred to me that if we were to buy it that Annabel and her friends, then Ann, may have actually wanted to move in and if they moved in I could trust them to be flexible and for example I wouldn& ; apos ; t have to put a fence up between the two backyards because the fence was down for years and years between the grandparents house and parents house. And I thought maybe we could help each other taking care of pets. But but mostly it was because I thought I could trust my daughter and I would love to live next door to her. This would be good for both of us. And some day it would pass to her an inheritance so if she was paying me rent she would sort of be in some ways going to be helping me to be able to pass it on to her later. So in the process of cleaning it out I made- I asked her that and she said yes she would be interested. So I went to the bank and talked to the bank about getting a loan at the same time as the family was talking about passing on the other half of this house to me. I thought why not combine that with getting a loan to fix up the house next door and then I would then build a landlady and have income and I would control in some ways who lived next door to me because I had had such a terrible relationship, a terrible experience with the 10 people that lived next door on the other side of me for ten years. I was very concerned about having- they was still there. As a matter of fact they were still there so I thought, " ; Oh my goodness we can& ; apos ; t have that on both sides of us. I won& ; apos ; t be able to hear a thing." ; My biggest complaint about them was noise. So that was another strong motivator for involving my daughter and her friends and buying the house next door. The bank process was very long and tedious and involved a lot of questions and daily phone calls from the bank and checking on us to make sure that we were at the phone numbers that we said we would be at and calls to where John worked and he had to prove that he worked there for a certain amount of time. Really a very long time before it felt like hounding and I evidently think they do this even now. When you& ; apos ; re trying to buy a house it& ; apos ; s kind of a really horrible process but we lived through it. We had a contractor that my Aunt Mary and I hired together. We both sized him up and thought he was the best one of the three that we interviewed who turned out to be a little bit less than honest at the end and left the job without giving us new windows giving- which was very rotten of him and I never to this day- I still feel like I let him get away with it. He got fifteen thousand dollars of our money that he shouldn& ; apos ; t have gotten away with and I had all the paperwork lined up to take him to the Better Business Bureau and I just didn& ; apos ; t do it partly because he said that if he - he appeared with his lawyer and laid out all the things that he did his lawyer would be able to prove that he had undercharged us on all of them and I- I said, " ; but I have the contract that says you& ; apos ; ll do X, Y and Z for this amount." ; So I think if I had been a different person I certainly wouldn& ; apos ; t have been taken for a ride like that. But anyway it made the process a little less than pleasant. But now we have the house and I& ; apos ; m glad we did it. Amy Starecheski: About when was that they were buying that house? Carol Zakaluk: Oh I& ; apos ; m so bad with dates it& ; apos ; s probably over. Let& ; apos ; s see I& ; apos ; m going to say 2001, 2002, something like that. Amy Starecheski: Mhm. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. It& ; apos ; s been over 10 years that we& ; apos ; ve had it and so it& ; apos ; s beginning to pay us back a little. It takes a long time for you to recoup the money that you, that you put out and we still have a mortgage but it& ; apos ; s very tiny. And tomorrow if we wanted, we could pay it off and then we would own both houses outright which is a wonderful, wonderful feeling. So even with all of that, " ; oh John is making less money now that retired" ; feeling. There& ; apos ; s also, " ; oh we don& ; apos ; t have to worry. We just have to worry about taxes and maintenance and keeping good people in it, things like that." ; . Amy Starecheski: Did you -so when you were buying- thinking about buying that house and then buying it, what did you think was going to be happening with the neighborhood? Carol Zakaluk: I thought that it was going to gradually and in minute ways improve, slightly. I thought that there already had been some changes and some improvements and I thought that the neighborhood. I mean what I& ; apos ; d still like for this neighborhood is for it to be a mixed neighborhood where it isn& ; apos ; t only, when I was growing up it was mostly Puerto Ricans and Dominicans and blacks and that was it. And now it seems to me that there are more Africans and there are more Indian people and there are more French speaking people- Africans and South Americans. I know many South Americans live in this neighborhood and of the more white people and of the white people that I& ; apos ; ve met, they& ; apos ; re from places like Alaska. Sometimes they& ; apos ; re from far flung places. So that& ; apos ; s really great. I love that kind of almost StarTrek about it. You could be from any planet, you could be from any religion, rather than just these polarized, very limited number of groups. So I thought that was going to happen then and I think it is happening now more. And I think that& ; apos ; s a really good change. So I thought that as I was buying the house it had already changed that there were more businesses and that the empty lots were had something being built in them more and more. There were buildings like the ones on the end of my block here that seemed to be kind of shoddily put together. But nevertheless they have people in them and they look pretty nice. And those people are pretty well behaved and they have jobs and it& ; apos ; s an improvement. Even though it& ; apos ; s not what I think of as gentrifying it& ; apos ; s a good use of space and it& ; apos ; s productive and it& ; apos ; s good for the community to have thriving businesses and people living in houses. It& ; apos ; s better than it was. Amy Starecheski: When did you start to see those kinds of houses getting built, do you remember? Carol Zakaluk: I don& ; apos ; t remember when I& ; apos ; m bad with dates. Amy Starecheski: That& ; apos ; s totally fine. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah that& ; apos ; s also something that would be so easy to look up. Amy Starecheski: Yeah yeah yeah. I& ; apos ; m just curious. I& ; apos ; m interested in those houses and- I& ; apos ; m wondering I guess like if when they started being built just like what people were saying about that and what you noticed like what you expected. What kind of impact you expected they might have on the neighborhood like where you think they came from like why you think people started building houses like that here. Carol Zakaluk: I went to one of the open houses and I remember thinking oh this doesn& ; apos ; t look like a lot of money was put into it. It looks like it was put up really quickly. It looks like maybe it& ; apos ; s not a very interesting interior. The walls don& ; apos ; t look very thick but yet they& ; apos ; re kind of pleasant looking on the outside and it& ; apos ; s affordable for somebody to buy the whole building and then have a rental unit in it. So I thought that that would be attractive to somebody that had a decent middle - middle income kind of person and that I think that& ; apos ; s who wound up renting those. I knew one family that moved into one of those buildings on my block. But they have since moved. It was the daughter that she was a pastor also of the pastor who had the building across the street for years and years and years and years. So Charlotte and her brother lived there for a while and her husband who is also a pastor. But now they live in New Rochelle. Otherwise you would be able to interview Charlotte in a heartbeat. She& ; apos ; s a fun- fun person to talk to. Amy Starecheski: Have you met other people that lived in those houses either on your block or anywhere? Like do they- do they hang out in the neighborhood? Do they participate in stuff? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah I see them cleaning up in front of their property. I do know one family because I& ; apos ; m 422 and they& ; apos ; re 442 and their mail comes to me all the time. So at first I took the mail down there and they have a mail box that stands on a stanchion at the end of the amenities strip outside their property so I can& ; apos ; t leave it in there it& ; apos ; s locked so I would tape it to their little window in their front door and tape it really well so that they would be able to see their name and they have Asian names. They& ; apos ; re Burmese. So like the fifth and tenth time I went down there with a piece of mail and the mail was all from their insurance companies so I thought this is important this is about health. If it was a piece of junk mail I would throw it away but this looks like a bill or a notice about health. I better bring this down there. That like the 10th time I did that. The guy came out and he& ; apos ; s very difficult to understand for me and I& ; apos ; m pretty good with foreigners and foreign languages. Otherwise I would introduce you and you could I can introduce you now and you can have at it. But I think you& ; apos ; ll be able to cut through his accent. He was a radical in Burma and was almost jailed or was jailed for his writings. He writes books. And so he moved his family here and he& ; apos ; s got children and wife and cousins and grandchildren and they& ; apos ; re very nice. And I see them coming out and playing. Kids are playing and they definitely are somehow participants on the street. But I don& ; apos ; t see them having a lot of conversations with other neighbors and I don& ; apos ; t know the other ones. Amy Starecheski: Were people like- were people excited when this new houses starting getting built, like that people talk about it in the neighborhood? Carol Zakaluk: Well you know Norman Davis hated to have a building right next to his house because one of his windows was completely blocked. Amy Starecheski: I remember him complaining about that. Carol Zakaluk: He complained bitterly on on and on and on for the two years that it took for them to start going up and he thought that they were just atrocious and terrible and hated them. I don& ; apos ; t know of any other people that thought that they were good or bad. I didn& ; apos ; t hear anything one way or the other. Amy Starecheski: Why do you think the neighborhood started getting better? Like why did that change happen? Carol Zakaluk: Is it possible that it& ; apos ; s be- because it hit rock bottom partly and that people in Manhattan started getting priced out of Manhattan and other places in Brooklyn and they thought let& ; apos ; s- there& ; apos ; s empty lots in the Bronx. The developers started thinking maybe this is a place that we could make money. That& ; apos ; s one idea and another idea is that there are certain politicians like for example Bill de Blasio, our current mayor, is rather famous for making deals with developers. And he likes to have people come and build new developments in New York City in exchange for a certain portion to be affordable housing so that he can say to his constituents, " ; I gave you affordable housing." ; But he& ; apos ; s also opened the door for a lot of developers and so thus we have those giant buildings on 138th Street. And I& ; apos ; ll bet you know what kind of people were targeted to move in like what economic levels there are for each one. But I don& ; apos ; t I bet 1 - one or two of them are market rate and one is at least for senior and disabled but I don& ; apos ; t know the specifics of every single one of them. But I think that was a good change in some ways because my whole life I& ; apos ; ve seen those big empty spaces and thought there should be something here. There should be some shops that you pass when you& ; apos ; re walking between the six train and the four and five. There should be more shelter from the weather because this is a crucial route and it& ; apos ; s gone undeveloped for my whole life until now. So I& ; apos ; m glad that those buildings are there. We& ; apos ; ll see what changes happen when the people actually move in. Amy Starecheski: Very curious. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Do you have hope that there are going to be a help for the neighborhood? They& ; apos ; re also going to make this place really crowded. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I think it depends a little bit on whether the city invests and infrastructure to support that many people. I& ; apos ; m just curious to see what kind of businesses go into those buildings and you know what kind of people move in and I think they& ; apos ; re- you& ; apos ; re right that they& ; apos ; re a mix of low income, moderate income, and market rate. And you know I don& ; apos ; t know what the market rate is going to be priced out so we& ; apos ; ll see. Something else I was just going to ask about that. Oh this is going back a little bit actually. How - Tell me about the decision - so you came back here with Ann and moved in with your grandmother, right your parents were next door. And you talked about your parents talking to you about their decision to stay and you saying like, " ; well, it& ; apos ; s kind of bad here but I know that you want to stay. So I& ; apos ; ll say that-" ; Tell me about the decision to raise your daughter here then, in the- you know in the 80s by this point, right? Carol Zakaluk: Mhm. Yes this was a terrible neighborhood in the 80s it was really infested with crack when I came back here with her. And I have to say that part of it was economic on my part. I had had five years of living on my own without any economic support from my family in San Francisco and traveling. And I knew how hard it was to support myself in an apartment, in a shared apartment. All all of my domiciles in those five years we& ; apos ; ve shared apartments. And I thought, " ; if I come back to New York I will at least have my own apartment. However bad the outside world is, I will have my own apartment for 250 dollars a month. I can do that. It& ; apos ; s a very little apartment but nonetheless I won& ; apos ; t have to deal with other personalities when I have this other job to do which is raise a child and I& ; apos ; ll have free babysitting, which otherwise I would have to pay for." ; And I really believed that being home with Ann, was better for Ann than farming her off to babysitters and in retrospect I& ; apos ; ll never know because I didn& ; apos ; t do it. I mean it might have been absolutely fine. And from the age of 3 she went to school for part of the day and was with other people and had other people leading and directing and advising her and the other kids to play with and wasn& ; apos ; t with me. So she& ; apos ; s the kind of kid who absolutely loves people and other personalities and interaction. So I think she would have probably been absolutely fine. But at the time I thought I wanted to do it I wanted to be that person. So that trumped any danger on the street. And also the glorious availability of my parents, who I still thought were wonderful people to expose her to. If I had stayed living on the West Coast, she would not have gotten to know them hardly at all. Wouldn& ; apos ; t have seen them very much, so those were the reasons. And yeah I did worry. But I was with her all the time and I was very careful about where I took her and often took her out of the neighborhood to Central Park or to our friends who lived on West 11th Street. We would go to the World Trade Center the Leroy Street library. So she wasn& ; apos ; t here all the time. I wasn& ; apos ; t- I am of Mott Haven. But I am- I was not- I was from Mott Haven, but I am not of Mott Haven and she wasn& ; apos ; t either, I don& ; apos ; t think. Amy Starecheski: Do you know now what she thinks about having grown up here? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. She treasures her exposure to her grandparents highly. She really thinks my grandma- my mother was wonderful. In fact when she first moved to California she had like a little tribute section of her -her apartment. And then when she got married the husband said, " ; do you really think we need 10 pictures of your grandparents? How about just one? So she put a lot of them away and she hasn& ; apos ; t put them back up since. But she absolutely loved and understands why I brought her back to meet them and you know be raised with them and hear those stories and get those, you know absorb through osmosis, some of the wonderful Grandma magic and Grandpa magic, too. I think she does like the Bronx as much as she likes San Francisco. She& ; apos ; s told me that many times and that California and San Francisco is a much nicer friendlier place to live an easier place to live. Everywhere you look there& ; apos ; s flowers there& ; apos ; s sort of a really nice conceptual climate in addition to the physical climate. She& ; apos ; s kind of addicted to that. But - but as we said earlier before we started taping, she& ; apos ; s in New Orleans today and I have the feeling that she& ; apos ; s also tempted by the idea of spending more time in New Orleans because it& ; apos ; s even more laid back than San Francisco and the circle of people that she& ; apos ; s recently met there are younger than she is so she& ; apos ; s getting a certain reviving of her youth even though she& ; apos ; s only 36, they& ; apos ; re 25 and so they& ; apos ; re more carefree and less laid out about what their lives are going to be like and so she& ; apos ; s having quite a bit of fun with the new people that she& ; apos ; s met there, so, so. Amy Starecheski: What do you - what do you think is the- What do you see as the future of these houses? Carol Zakaluk: Of the Burteen Block houses? Amy Starecheski: Well your two houses. Carol Zakaluk: Oh these two houses. Well if I could go different ways. One is that I could encourage John for us to stay here and continue to be landlords and have the wonderful income from having a rental property which really looks smart to me particularly now, now that he& ; apos ; s retired. We could, if necessary, we could live just on one floor where we could install one of those lift chairs to take us up to the second floor if we had difficulty walking. There is a sort of a separate apartment on the top floor. So if either of us needed full time care, there would be a place that would be very easy to hire a full time caretaker to live in the building and yet have some space apart from that person because privacy is very important to both of us. And I love stuff. John loves stuff. We have very different hobbies so it& ; apos ; s nice to be able to separate ourselves within this large building and have plenty of room and not get on each other& ; apos ; s nerves. There& ; apos ; s a lot of great reasons to stay here. Plus I have tremendous roots. I love New York City. I was just telling John the other day I sometimes long to be either in Times Square or at 34th Street Herald Square or in Grand Central station at rush hour just because I love being around a lot of bustling people and a lot of energy. I like going to the Bronx Zoo on free days when all of those hundreds of school kids are shrieking and running around. I love that. And where else can you get that? You can& ; apos ; t. And he doesn& ; apos ; t understand that at all. He wants to run the opposite direction from those kinds of crowds. But I& ; apos ; m a real New Yorker that way. I love to talk to strange people on the subway. I love to go to weird, free events all over the city and I can& ; apos ; t find another place in America that lures me the way that living in New York does. I don& ; apos ; t think I can afford to live anywhere else in New York City except for these two buildings. So those are really good reasons to stay here, I think. If we get priced out by the real estate taxes going up so astronomically that we could not afford to stay in both houses, we could always sell one of them and continue to stay here. We could invest the money which would by then be more than the value of it now and possibly live off dividends that we got from investments. We could also move somewhere else as yet unknown to us and sell to somebody else. So I don& ; apos ; t want to even contemplate that at the moment that& ; apos ; s very scary to me, going out into the unknown. If we got to the point of being so decrepit that we could hardly move, it wouldn& ; apos ; t matter where we were except we would probably be wise to be in some kind of care facility. I& ; apos ; m pretty sure Annabel at the moment is not interested in moving back here to live. But that could change if the neighborhood really changes a lot or if she ages some or gets a different mate than she& ; apos ; s been with maybe he would be interested because of his job. Maybe this will be an attractive city. I kind of think maybe it would. With the current boyfriend but I won& ; apos ; t say anything more about that. Amy Starecheski: What& ; apos ; s it like being a landlady? Carol Zakaluk: Oh I love being a landlady. I love being a landlady partly because I seem to rent to a series of younger people that- collegiate, you know just graduated, ball has continued to roll over 10 years so I always wound up with people who were between say 22 and 42 and I feel like I have children - more children than I miss Annabel so much. But I have young people next door and they are very tolerant of me I& ; apos ; m very tolerant of them. I& ; apos ; m very forgiving if they need a few extra days to pay something and sometimes on utilities I let them slide for a couple of months. I pick up packages for them every day. I take care of their pets, they take care of my pets if I go away which is very rare. We joke sometimes I used to be invited in to be a 4th or 5th hand at a board game regularly so that was really fun. We exchange Christmas presents, they come in for Thanksgiving once -once in a while they get Easter eggs with me. Well that& ; apos ; s - that& ; apos ; s a religious, they will come here every Easter. You know the week before Easter and we will dye eggs together and they& ; apos ; re all crazy. Oh we make crazy eggs and Jared still lives there. My daughter& ; apos ; s original boyfriend after college who lived with her for nine and a half years all together in different places. They broke up when they were together in San Francisco and Jared came back and now he& ; apos ; s - he& ; apos ; s my head tenant. Have you ever met Jared? Amy Starecheski: I don& ; apos ; t know if I have, no. Carol Zakaluk: Jared and I are good friends and I& ; apos ; ve met his family. I& ; apos ; ve been to, I went to his wedding, eventually got married to somebody else, who I love who now lives next door too, and she& ; apos ; s very much like Annabel in lots of ways. Liz, a big lover of animals like me, has two fantastic cats. I just really enjoy being a landlady. So if I weren& ; apos ; t a landlady anymore I would miss that connection. There is something about being a landlady I have to say- you know they can& ; apos ; t disagree with me. The advantage to be nice to me and I guess they can kind of tell. I would like things to be friendly between us so maybe they& ; apos ; re more indulgent of me than they would be to a random older person. You know what I mean. But I think they genuinely like me. I don& ; apos ; t think they& ; apos ; re just making it up. I think they really like me. I like them. Amy Starecheski: What is your- what is your experience like now walking around on the streets of this neighborhood? Like today was a really - it was February but it was super warm today. Like you& ; apos ; re walking around, like what- Tell me what it feels like. Carol Zakaluk: It definitely felt - today was a record high- 74 for February 21st and I don& ; apos ; t know if you saw the article in The Times it was the times of the past 1930 something. It was record high 68 in 1930-something and how they actually had the number of people that showed up in Coney Island and the number of people who chose to fly to Boston, a hundred and fifty, which was a record. You know a record number of people and there were people waiting to apply to fly to Boston and it was a hoot. Today I passed our new playground, Renakwa playground on the block, and I was so happy to see- full, full of parents and kids, happy, really using the new playground really well and I thought, " ; this is a giant, wonderful improvement. I love this happening to the block," ; and then I went to the post office today and I saw four older guys maybe 65, 70 years old hanging out as I have seen them my whole life. A little group of older men and one of them was quite drunk and the other three were laughing at him. He was holding fourth and they were just kind of quietly chuckling at him [laughs] and I thought, " ; you know, that& ; apos ; s also, the neighborhood is coming to life again. This is a very typical thing," ; and then I went into Baskin Robbins which has now opened. And I walked in and I thought, " ; this is really -is this gentrification?" ; Is really what I thought. I thought, " ; there& ; apos ; s an ice cream cone that& ; apos ; s three dollars and twenty nine cents. That& ; apos ; s why there& ; apos ; s nobody in here because they can get an ice cream cone at the pizza place diagonally across on the other side of the corner for a dollar fifty. I wonder how long this Baskin Robbins is going to be here." ; And I did not buy anything, mostly because I& ; apos ; m on a diet. But it looked great and it& ; apos ; s a nice addition to the neighborhood. And I hope it does well. And then I went to the post office and the post office was super hot because our particular post office is probably the lowest most badly run post office of the whole city. And every time you go in there either the fire alarm is making that horrible chirping noise they obviously don& ; apos ; t know how to turn the heat off. And the only good thing about my experience was the people behind the counter were there. They were working and they you know got to the line really quickly. Today that was the line out the door. So my experience today being in this neighborhood was pretty routine and pleasant of course. The weather is so charming that, who wouldn& ; apos ; t like being outside today? Amy Starecheski: Do you feel self-conscious walking around here as a white person? Carol Zakaluk: Not as much as I did when I was growing up and certainly not since I passed a certain age. We had a conversation earlier about how you catcalling happens really a lot especially when you hit the age of 13. And it& ; apos ; s really dreadful if you& ; apos ; re a shy person or if you don& ; apos ; t want to have attention called to you or you just don& ; apos ; t like rude things being said to you whatever age you are. That& ; apos ; s a real problem. But it doesn& ; apos ; t happen to me anymore. I& ; apos ; m 62 now. If I - I see more people on the street that I know. So it& ; apos ; s more likely that I& ; apos ; ll pass somebody and be able to stop and have a pleasant exchange with them. I& ; apos ; ve also cultivated relationships with business owners. So when I go into a shop I have a nice few sentences with the guy in Lee& ; apos ; s vegetables or the lady at King 99 cent store or whatever that place is called. She knows me and you know we exchanged pleasantries. Amy Starecheski: You were talking about the Baskin Robbins and wondering if that& ; apos ; s gentrification. What do you think about the potential for gentrification in this neighborhood? Like what- I guess maybe to start like, when did you first start hearing people talk about that? Not like the date, but like do you remember when, you know, when that started being an issue that people thought about in relation to Mott Haven? Carol Zakaluk: I would say that started around the same time that I started working for Tim Blum and haven arts shortly thereafter. It was an extremely hot topic. It was a conversation that was on the- I think front page of The New York Times. There was an article about a couple who had moved to the clock tower. He was the guy who I mentioned before who came from Alaska. Actually they were a couple in Alaska together. So they both moved here from Alaska. They were wonderful people and they were being interviewed in connection with gentrification. Port Maurice. I have always thought that gentrification is not going to come here like it has come to places in Brooklyn because we have 11 housing projects in this community ward district and that& ; apos ; s a lot. Unless they change the rules for who lives in those projects, we will not be gentrifying the way that - you know not by leaps and bounds. The building that they built immediately to the west of the Willis Avenue Bridge, the Gateway building? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. I can& ; apos ; t remember what it& ; apos ; s called. The Gateway Building is east of the Willis Avenue Bridge. Here& ; apos ; s the Willis Avenue Bridge. Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: That building is owned by Sobra. That building is called the East one is called the Gateway Building. That& ; apos ; s different than the one on the west side. That& ; apos ; s huge. Amy Starecheski: OK. Carol Zakaluk: And the one on the west side was originally touted as a market rate and there are all of these ads in the newspaper with charts showing this number of apartments for- our studios. And you must have this income range in order to get one of those in the rent is this and it was elaborate and I kept that for a long time because I thought, " ; I will run into people at Haven arts, particularly, all the time who were looking to move here. They thought this was going to be an art- art zone, an an art-friendly place because Port Morris in particular was undeveloped and they thought, " ; we can get loft spaces here for cheap. There& ; apos ; s nobody in them. This isn& ; apos ; t being used." ; So, anyway, I did- on a daily basis, there would be people that came to Haven Arts Gallery asking, " ; did I know any place they could live? Did I know any place they could crash? Do I know any place where the landlord would make them a deal so that they could make an artist studio?" ; And that happened all the time. The year of that- when did I say that I started working for Ken Blum in my previous- I don& ; apos ; t remember- I don& ; apos ; t have any of my written notes.. Amy Starecheski: Oh it& ; apos ; s fine. Maybe like 2000- Like 2002, 3, 4, 5- like in there? Carol Zakaluk: In there. Absolutely. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Definitely. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: But then again, those people didn& ; apos ; t stay, or they changed the zoning in Port Morris. There were a lot of people that got up in arms about that. People- we had meetings in St. Jerome& ; apos ; s. I was one of the people that was hesitant about rezoning Fort Morris to be mixed use with residential as well as industrial. And it sounded like it might be good but it also sounded like maybe it might be terrible if there was way over development. But I was- I kind of had the feeling that the city was going to do whatever it wanted anyway depending, you know despite what local people wanted. I always have that feeling, that the city is going to do whatever the hell it wants despite all of these charettes where the stakeholders are supposed to come out and express their views on what it is that they think they& ; apos ; d like to see and then they go ahead and build what& ; apos ; s within their budget. And sometimes they& ; apos ; ll throw in a couple of things that you ask for and mostly they don& ; apos ; t. So that& ; apos ; s pretty skeptical of me. Amy Starecheski: You were talking about the rezoning in Fort Morris and that the pe- when you were working in the Haven Arts Gallery and that those people didn& ; apos ; t stay and can you kind of describe for me like the like ebbs and flows of the art scene in Mott Haven over the time that you& ; apos ; ve been involved with it? You mentioned like around that period like 2002 or so like the first artists starting to come just like mirror that for me from up then to now. Carol Zakaluk: OK well we had - one of the first galleries was called Sidewalk Gallery, which was a tiny, little place on Brookner Boulevard. It was really little. And I was on the board of directors of that for a very few months. There were three of us. And it was a couple - I can dredge up their names but I can& ; apos ; t dredge them out of my brain right now. I have it written down. I have a big file of articles, which I may or may not still have. I may have thrown them away, but for a while during that period I kept every article that I ran across that had to do with gentrification or the arts coming into the neighborhood because I went to Music and Art and I am very arts oriented and John is a sound engineer and I wanted to help that happen as much as possible, I was encouraging of that. So we had Sidewalk Gallery. That had some very nice, little shows. Those people, the originating couple, and their friend, David, and him- his name I remember. The three of them had many friends from Brooklyn. And so when they had an opening, people from Brooklyn would come and their openings were terribly well attended and very exciting and their shows were really good and the art was high quality but they couldn& ; apos ; t sustain having a gallery because nobody buys art from Mott Haven, nobody goes to Mott Haven to buy art. They come because their friends are in the show because there& ; apos ; s a buzz. And we had that same exact problem at Haven Arts, but in the case of Haven we had a rich guy boss who was happy to give the money that he had made- Barry Kastrinsky. Do you know him? Amy Starecheski: No I don& ; apos ; t know him. Carol Zakaluk: Barry Kastrinsky& ; apos ; s family ran the silver plating factory next to Western Beef. There was a huge building. And now it& ; apos ; s the other half of Western Beef because it got sold. But back then, when art was first looming around Mott Haven, blooming, shall we say, Barry Kastrinksy was still in his silversmithing shop, silver plating shop, and you could go there and he would have a whole section devoted to silver art. He would weld together huge pictures and spoons and he would create art out of this stuff and he would paint- what do you call the things you put a- pelettes! What you put a forklift into. He had brightly colored palettes and he would put them out in front of his silver shop and his raison d& ; apos ; être was to make art to meet artists to help artists. He would create sections of his silver shop that he would create residency spaces for. He had two artists living there for a while or rather not living but creating art. Jack Belcher, who is a woman from Australia, who makes even now, exquisite punch-outs, takes big wide pieces of paper and she cuts with an exact-o knife floral patterns. It& ; apos ; s meditative her and sometimes she& ; apos ; ll display these huge four feet by four foot pieces of paper that have thousands of cutouts and very geometric shapes and then she& ; apos ; ll display them in such a way as the shadows come through the cuts and they& ; apos ; re very popular. There are thousands of dollars each and Barry was instrumental in helping her you know break into the New York art scene. Now she sells to hospitals because it& ; apos ; s meditative and rich people in corporate offices and she& ; apos ; s doing really, really well. So he had Jack Belcher and he had Algernon Miller, who is an older African-American gentleman, who made large sculptures and also smaller works and famously in New York he got a commission to create a sculpture and a plaza at the north end of Central Park, kind of in the middle of the North and Central America. Amy Starecheski: I don& ; apos ; t know. Carol Zakaluk: OK. Well Al Miller was one of the people who was at Barry& ; apos ; s place for a while. So where was I? Amy Starecheski: I was asking you to kind of narrate that trajectory of the art scene. Carol Zakaluk: Right. So we had Sidewalk Gallery, we had Haven Arts, and while those two things were going on those two galleries were getting going. We also seemed to have maybe 50 artists who had moved into the neighborhood and they were mostly living in places in port. Some of them were in the clocktower building maybe 10 that I knew were in the clocktower building I& ; apos ; m sure they were more than I just didn& ; apos ; t know and then some of them lived in the neighborhood where Tim Blum, my boss, was- had his studio. Some of them lived in his building. They were illegally living in the building but the owner didn& ; apos ; t seem to mind having rent and you know didn& ; apos ; t mind dividing up the huge industrial spaces so that he could get three or four people in there paying rent and they were ideal for making big work or for living cheap if you were an artist. Some of those artists did not want to come to the gallery and be part of the art scene because they felt that would call them out- that that people would find out where they were living illegally so they just literally shunned the rest of the arts community and other ones you know joined and came to things and got to know everyone. There were more gay people that were in that community also which I found wonderfully refreshing because I didn& ; apos ; t grow up with people who were gay or lesbian in this neighborhood and I felt the fact that they could walk around and be comfortable in Mott Haven and Fort Morris was so different than when I was growing up. I was really relieved that that change had come here. I& ; apos ; m not sure exactly how that happened but I guess it must have happened gradually and a result of there being more gay people portrayed on television and gay people having talk shows you know and I& ; apos ; m talking about. What else happened in the art scene? At some point they started getting priced out of the clock tower and the clock tower raised its rent it was fifteen hundred dollars for twelve hundred, at first I believe was the starting price for a studio and then it was 1400 and then it was fifteen hundred. And then when my friends who were on the cover of The Times decided to move out, I think their rent was up to 1900 in a very short amount of time for a relatively small place. So they moved into a building like this one that we& ; apos ; re in on Brookner Boulevard right next to McDonald& ; apos ; s. I can& ; apos ; t tell you the address. I& ; apos ; d have to look it up. Amy Starecheski: I know you& ; apos ; re talking about, though. Carol Zakaluk: So it was a nice apartment and it was bigger and it was cheaper and they were fine there and it was also very close to Haven Arts and J.C. was the other co-Director. It was me, Barry Krasinsky and J.C. Price. Amy Starecheski: Did that- that art scene at Haven Arts and Sidewalk, does that continue into the present or was there like a- was there a break at any point? Carol Zakaluk: Well the break for me was that Barry& ; apos ; s money ran out and even though the gallery was in what was called the empowerment zone and that there were economic incentives for businesses and nonprofits in that zone. We made an application, I worked on it for a really long time, it was to get a grant for seventy five thousand dollars. And they said BDEDC, the Bronx Overall Economic Development Corporation, said, " ; we& ; apos ; d love to give you this grant and you deserve this grant, but you haven& ; apos ; t told us what you will do to be sustainable after this grant money runs out so we can& ; apos ; t give it to you." ; So we came really close to being able to sustain another year or two and then we ran out of money. So we had to close after three years which was really a shame because we were kind of a magnet for all of the artists moving into the neighborhood. John, my husband, was just telling me today that he was an admirer of Jane Jacobs and that she you know was quoted as saying, " ; you have to watch the places in a neighborhood that aren& ; apos ; t yet fully formed, that you should treasure the places that look a little hardscrabble because they& ; apos ; re going to be something eventually but there& ; apos ; s something beautiful about chaos and you should appreciate the fact that they& ; apos ; re not an urban neat, fitting into the grid kind of looking like everything else," ; and the art scene back then in 2005-ish was like that. There were a lot of places where an artist could paint a mural and get away with it and it would be lovely and create some buzz and there& ; apos ; d be an article and there& ; apos ; d be an opening and there were a lot of cracks that you could maneuver within. Amy Starecheski: Is it still like that now? Carol Zakaluk: I don& ; apos ; t know if it& ; apos ; s still like that quite as much because all those little gaps have been begun to be filled up with things like there& ; apos ; s a hotel next to that mural that I was just talking about, which was by Wanda Ortiz. I just walked the other day, it& ; apos ; s on Lincoln and 136th Street there& ; apos ; s her old, crumbling mural and right next to it is a much bigger, much brighter, colorful mural that has less character. I think that one is there because they built a hotel across the street a very small hotel and one of your first hotels ever in this neighborhood that I know of. Although there may have been hotels a hundred years ago in my lifetime this is the first hotel and I know that hotels are often the very first thing that comes to a neighborhood. Artists, and then when there& ; apos ; s a hotel you have to start watching out for big development. Amy Starecheski: You- are there- You mention the risk of being priced out by taxes. Are there- Do you hear that worry from other homeowners in this neighborhood? Carol Zakaluk: A couple of homeowners have mentioned that they think prices are going up and that when a house on the block sells for a lot of money, they& ; apos ; re afraid, you know it& ; apos ; s a double sided coin. On one hand it raises the price of your house if you want to sell it. But if you want to stay here your taxes are going to go up. So I& ; apos ; m happy that Osama Takahashi sold 418 for a goodly amount of money but probably my taxes did go up and they probably will keep going. Amy Starecheski: Do you get a lot of unsolicited offers on these houses? Carol Zakaluk: Oh yes. Oh many. And I would say that& ; apos ; s been going on my entire life. Yes. For a while, I kept the file. And every time somebody came to the door I would go in and get the file, which was easily two inches thick you know Manila just folding file. And I would come to the door and I would let the realtor, or whoever it was see that I was adding his business card to a file that was two inches thick because I didn& ; apos ; t want the people to get the sense that they were alone in wanting to buy the property. And I didn& ; apos ; t want them to get their hopes up or to spam me in that way. I mean spamming did exist back then and their faces would fall. " ; Oh gee. Other people have been here before me." ; And phone calls. We used to get phone calls every other day. Quite recently, actually. Amy Starecheski: I got a phone call right when I was leaving to come over here- trying to find my landlord. Carol Zakaluk: Oh, really? To buy the building? Amy Starecheski: Mhm. Carol Zakaluk: Do you get them every other day? Amy Starecheski: Not at my - not had my phone number. Carol Zakaluk: Uh huh. Amy Starecheski: I think they must have cross-referenced it with the landline they must have it with the address. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Amy Starecheski: But they were asking for my landlord. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. That& ; apos ; s very persistent of them to bother attendant to get the landlord. I mean it& ; apos ; s real evil. Amy Starecheski: I know. Yeah I was surprised. Has the the neighborhood you know have been like times are there& ; apos ; s been more buzz about the neighborhood? Have you seen the calls and the solicitations go up in those times? Carol Zakaluk: Yes. I& ; apos ; d say that this is one of the buzz times, is now, for the past couple of years, even. And I think that there was a lot of buzz around that time when the articles were on the cover of the - like almost every newspaper that you had in New York would have real estate articles and they& ; apos ; d say " ; Where& ; apos ; s hot?" ; Or " ; where& ; apos ; s affordable?" ; And Mott Haven would show up in a way I guess that& ; apos ; s good that seems to have died out a little bit now. I don& ; apos ; t see those articles quite as much. Do you? Amy Starecheski: I think it& ; apos ; s - I think it& ; apos ; s down a little. It& ; apos ; s hard to tell. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. It seems to be down a little. Glad. It& ; apos ; s very bothersome. And it& ; apos ; s kind of intrusive to have all these strangers come around and want to buy your house and throw you out. It& ; apos ; s really distasteful. Of course if I wanted to sell the house I only need one buyer. I know that if I did ever want to sell it I have no problem. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Just you know people who are listening to us who don& ; apos ; t live in New York that probably be surprised to hear about this thing where people bother people like - give me an estimate of like during a busy time how many unsolicited offers to buy your house would you get in a week or something? Carol Zakaluk: Four or five. Sometimes written get postcards also from realtors that you know that they& ; apos ; re writing to everybody on the block where everybody in the neighborhood and they have a picture of the realtor and they have their address and sometimes they have the five or six other houses that they& ; apos ; ve sold in the neighborhood. And for how much. If you want to sell your property, then, you know, call me. And sometimes I get a personal letter. I got a lovely letter from somebody who came to the block on an open house day to go in 418 and he said, " ; while I was here making a bid for 418, which was a little over my price range, I saw 416. Do you have any information about 416? Do you know if it& ; apos ; s for sale? I& ; apos ; d love to buy it. Here& ; apos ; s here& ; apos ; s two paragraphs about me and what I would be able to bring to the neighborhood." ; So him, I actually wrote back and I had a little bit of a dialogue with him because he was so nice and he went to the effort and was seemed like a very nice guy. And then after two or three correspondences when he figured out 416 wasn& ; apos ; t going to be sold, then he stopped writing to me. Sometimes it& ; apos ; s pleasant like that, but very rarely. Amy Starecheski: I was just going to ask you about that. What was it? Oh. Can you tell me a little bit more about your - what it& ; apos ; s been like being- I don& ; apos ; t know what how you describe your role with the houses on Alexander like especially you know being a landlady here on 136th Street and then you& ; apos ; ve had the experience of seeing how people from outside the neighborhood react to that neighborhood like what they think of it. And so I& ; apos ; m interested how that& ; apos ; s changed over time. Yeah just what you& ; apos ; ve learned from being in that role. Carol Zakaluk: A remarkable number of people come to look at the apartments that I have shown that surprise me. I have both people that are kind of just starting out young people or just new in their careers and are looking at the apartments because they work in the neighborhood where they work in Harlem, East Harlem, and they want to be close to work and it would be very practical for them to live here. But maybe the rents are a little high, so they& ; apos ; re hopeful but they love the apartments because the ones that Jonathan Brandt has redone are very beautiful inside and they love the location. I& ; apos ; ve also had people who were kind of on the fence, they weren& ; apos ; t sure how they felt about the neighborhood, and after viewing the apartment which most of them like, they also walk around the neighborhood. And of those, I& ; apos ; d say a third of them come back and they say, " ; neighborhood isn& ; apos ; t what I was looking for" ; or " ; I don& ; apos ; t feel safe here." ; And most of them say, " ; really like it. Really like Mexican food, really enjoyed all those kind of high end places available on the other side of the major Deegan and Fort Morris. Nice to have that option. Also nice to have relatively cheap shopping options in a frugal neighborhood." ; People need to hang onto their pennies. They could save money by living here is often something that I& ; apos ; ve heard. People that have cars always ask me, " ; Is it safe to park in the neighborhood? Is it easy to park in the neighborhood?" ; I had one woman say she didn& ; apos ; t want to move here because she was not sure that her car would be safe on 136th Street. She didn& ; apos ; t want to rent 418. And she thought it was a little bit far from Albert Einstein, where she was a nurse. So she- she was just very hesitant and she was from a neighborhood in the Bronx, from the Bronx and had lived in the Bronx but yet was a little bit frightened of 136th Street. I thought that was a little strange. Those are the people that come to mind. Sometimes like it& ; apos ; s a family. And some of the family members are very comfortable and really like it and other family members are. And so they& ; apos ; ll hash it out amongst themselves and then they& ; apos ; ll come back with either a yes or no. But mostly those families have like wound up liking and wanting to come. They& ; apos ; ve convinced the person who is a little on the fence to bend their way. Amy Starecheski: What do you say when people ask you if it& ; apos ; s safe here? Carol Zakaluk: I tell them that in any place in New York it& ; apos ; s always wise to keep an eye out when you& ; apos ; re on the street and keep an alertness and awareness you know wherever you are. And I tell them that I think it& ; apos ; s smart to not be ostentatious about wealth, that to flash a really expensive new phone or a really expensive anything: headphones, jewelry, is probably not a good idea because there are a lot of people who are poor here and that need money to eat and very basic things and that they& ; apos ; re kind of taking a risk. But if they watch themselves and they have their head on their shoulders they would be absolutely fine. That& ; apos ; s what I believe, anyway. And I also tell them that for 10 years I have rented to young people of all colors and all shapes and all physical- some of them are very strong and good runners and obviously could beat them back up and some that are little wimpy people, and everybody& ; apos ; s been fine and nobody has had an issue. Actually I take that back. One guy went back and forth to Columbia University where he was a librarian and he was about 30 years old and he rode a scooter across the Madison Avenue Bridge on 138th Street to Manhattan and he once got pushed off it and his scooter was stolen from him. But he dressed very nicely, he dressed in chinos and a blue serge suit. And he looked like a white guy with money and he got his scooter taken. So that did happen and he wasn& ; apos ; t living with me at the time, he was living someplace just a few blocks away I think on the cul de sac where Michael Johnson lives. He was living in one of those houses. Anyway, but nobody else has had any issues. So I tell prospective tenants that too and they think, " ; oh, if your people can be safe, then mine can." ; . Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; m thinking again about the question of what your experience is like on the street in this neighborhood now. And if you feel self-conscious as a white person. And I just wanted to kind of come back to that because I& ; apos ; m wondering like how that has. You know there& ; apos ; s like - there& ; apos ; s the gendered aspect of it right. Like the catcalling and being a young girl and game that kind of attention that changes as you age. As we both know to different extents. And then there& ; apos ; s also- there& ; apos ; s also the racial aspect of it. And you know as a neighbor it has become somewhat more mixed - like is it- is it mixed enough now that it makes a difference in terms of that kind of - I guess have you ever felt like you got attention for being white as opposed to just for being a woman. And has that changed as the neighborhood has changed a bit over the last 20 years or something? Carol Zakaluk: Yes of course. I have experienced that when I was one of the only white people that lived here, there would be people who would turn their heads because it was so unusual for them to see me. But I think that our family was so no after a while that that kind of head turning only happened when the person wasn& ; apos ; t a local. When I was a surprise to them. To this day, I do get some of that, particularly if I& ; apos ; m walking with one of my tenants who is white and there& ; apos ; s more than one of us. Just the other day I was walking with a tenant who& ; apos ; s from northern Minnesota who is very tall and very blonde and has blue eyes and is very strapping and looks like a Nordic. You know he& ; apos ; s an actor and he& ; apos ; s very physically present wherever he is. And several people turned their heads and looked at both of us. A couple of them looked disappointed or angry that there were - you know, " ; What are these white people doing in this neighborhood?" ; But the number of times that I experienced that is very small compared to when I was growing up. I don& ; apos ; t get the vibe that we& ; apos ; re not welcome and I get much more- much more frequently kind of a welcoming, " ; let& ; apos ; s talk to these people. Are you lost?" ; I& ; apos ; ve gotten quite often in my life from some people: " ; can I help you find your way?" ; [laughs] I know. Amy& ; apos ; s laughing. And you must also sometimes have gotten that in this neighborhood too, " ; you know can I help you, lady? Do you need help? Are you lost? Do you need an escort?" ; I& ; apos ; ve gotten back in the day but not anymore now. I& ; apos ; m pretty comfortable. I think being 62, I think that& ; apos ; s one of the reasons I& ; apos ; m comfortable is I& ; apos ; m not worth chatting up as a possible love interest and I& ; apos ; m not feeble enough that they need to offer to help carry my groceries although sometimes people say, " ; you know that looks heavy. Can I help you carry it?" ; I guess I& ; apos ; ve said no so many times to people that they& ; apos ; ve stopped asking me. Sometimes I used to get that. I& ; apos ; m fairly comfortable. Amy Starecheski: When there& ; apos ; s a gentrification buzz period does it change the way people respond to you as a white person? Do you ever notice that? Carol Zakaluk: I don& ; apos ; t think- amongst the people that know me that I chat on the street with, no I haven& ; apos ; t. Because they know me and I& ; apos ; m already a known friend entity. But I have heard local people express worry about being displaced and when the Brueckner grill opened I had a number of local people say, " ; have you been there yet. Isn& ; apos ; t it amazing that that place is here in this neighborhood? You know I go there I go there to drink with my friends. It& ; apos ; s very nice." ; And I have a lot of that. I thought that that was kind of nice that they were- That& ; apos ; s a kind of a mixed race Bar Grill on Bruckner. I think the address might even be one Bruckner Boulevard on Third Avenue and Bruckner and it was kind of unique and a surprise when it first came to this neighborhood. Now it& ; apos ; s called the Mott Haven Grill, even though it& ; apos ; s in Fort Morris, which I& ; apos ; m very annoyed about. But anyway yeah I think the most I could say about that. Amy Starecheski: I think that& ; apos ; s most of what I wanted to make sure to ask you about. I know it& ; apos ; s getting late. Let me just look at my notes and make sure there& ; apos ; s not something that I forgot. And you think about if there& ; apos ; s anything that you want to add. Anything that I should have asked you about that I didn& ; apos ; t, anything that you wanted to say and you haven& ; apos ; t, anything at all. Carol Zakaluk: Ok. Amy Starecheski: I remember this, that we always know when it& ; apos ; s time to start to end because your cats know that it& ; apos ; s time for them to be fed. Carol Zakaluk: Right. Well Scout& ; apos ; s just hopeful. She has to have a whole forty-five minutes before she gets to eat. [Indiscernible]. Amy Starecheski: I remembered one thing you talked about like conflicts and just having a hard time with your neighbors and in terms of sound and also just the use of public space, people sitting out on the stoops or you know, all of that. And that I think was more like from your adult life. And I& ; apos ; m wondering if there were those kinds of conflicts over public space, sound, public behavior in like the 60s and 70s. Do you remember like what- if - if they were the same kinds of conflicts or if they changed over time? Carol Zakaluk: Well one change, one giant change, was that in the 60s, people didn& ; apos ; t speak English. So, when you walked down the block, and there were giant numbers of people, young men, unemployed, sitting in clusters on stoops and some of the stoops on this particular block are very tall stoops. So there would be eight or nine or 10 guys sitting on a stoop speaking a language that wasn& ; apos ; t understandable to me and my family. It was threatening and I also think that when I was young and there was this new influx of Puerto Ricans, a lot of the Puerto Rican families that we got to know that would speak to us, they wanted to go back to Puerto Rico as soon as possible. And they were resentful that they weren& ; apos ; t able to make enough money to be able to do that. And they - there were other local people that thought that they were taking over this neighborhood. So this was their neighborhood now. And what were we doing in it? Even though we were here first and we were here living in minding our own business. So there was much more tension and much more danger. And being younger of course and inexperienced and not having a lot of chutzpah, I was frightened walking around quite a bit, you know definitely tense. And now I don& ; apos ; t have that sense of tension anymore. Once in a while, maybe, in a particular situation, but I& ; apos ; m really cautious and I watch myself and I& ; apos ; m ready to call out to my friends who I know live in these buildings, you know, " ; help me, save me," ; or whatever it is, which I& ; apos ; ve never had to do. I have more of a voice now. And sometimes I also have said to people which we probably talked about already- somebody once threw an apple core at me on my own corner, like a little group of men standing outside the bodega. John and I were going downtown for a concert and somebody threw an apple core and it landed practically on me and I stopped and I just said to the whole group of them you know, " ; why did you do that? I live here. You know you don& ; apos ; t you realize I& ; apos ; m a visitor. I live here and I& ; apos ; ve lived here longer than any of you people. So cut it out." ; And I just kept going. And nobody bothered me. Nobody said anything to me or whatever. And I have often done that when somebody says something to me that I find offensive. I stop and I say, " ; you know, you have no business doing that." ; I try not to be really rude to them I don& ; apos ; t want to get punched or knifed or hit or anything or engage them too much. But at the same time I don& ; apos ; t want them to get away with it fully. I want them to realize that I& ; apos ; m a person with a voice with something to say I& ; apos ; m not just going to let them bounce something off me. Somebody was through a coke bottle at me and Ann, out of one of the project windows. I think that they were aiming because it landed four feet in front of us. And I for a while after that didn& ; apos ; t take her down that road through the projects, I deliberately took her around the projects to take her to school, even though it was longer. It could have been a random thing because people in projects just throw baby diapers out the window, they just throw cigarette cartons- empty cigarette cartons out the window, any kind of junk used to sail routinely out the windows of the projects. They don& ; apos ; t do it quite so much anymore. But that was a memorable moment when I felt really bad and they were- [indiscernible]. Amy Starecheski: The only other thing I wanted to ask you is you talked about going to Brook Park, and you know for no specific reason but always just kind of meeting somebody getting involved in a conversation . You might not have one but if you have one, could you give me like an example of that? Carol Zakaluk: Of a conversation? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Like yeah. Carol Zakaluk: I had a conversation with a guy who was one of the artists at the community art festival who made photographs of industrial spaces in New Jersey, which is where he was from. And I thought that they were really good photographs. And I just asked him, you know where are you from and how did you become enticed by these kinds of landscapes? And I said how much I enjoyed decaying metal and how much I enjoyed working in a warehouse neighborhood where there were very few residents and how much I enjoyed how useful loading docks were and we- and some of the projects at Haven. And we had an artists type conversation that was really nice. I& ; apos ; ve had conversations with people that don& ; apos ; t speak English that well that are kind of broken conversations in which we talk about family and what is the name of Harry& ; apos ; s old roommate who used to be the mother lamb? Amy Starecheski: Naila. Carol Zakaluk: Naila. I& ; apos ; ve had conversations with Naila that fall into that category of I don& ; apos ; t understand exactly everything that she& ; apos ; s talking about but we& ; apos ; re going to try and we& ; apos ; ll talk about her children and that I understand and we& ; apos ; ll talk about Colombia, where she& ; apos ; s from. And we& ; apos ; ve had kind of interesting conversations that way. Short, but interesting. I would not normally speak to somebody who is from Colombia, I wouldn& ; apos ; t have any reason to. But in Brook Park, I have a reason to talk to her. Amy Starecheski: What does the neighborhood sound like now? Carol Zakaluk: It& ; apos ; s interesting that you ask that because now that it& ; apos ; s 74 degrees out today, I was listening to see if people would turn their beat boxes on. It sounds quiet, blissfully quiet in the winter. I mean I& ; apos ; m- I& ; apos ; m always waiting for winter and I& ; apos ; m waiting for rain so that people will go inside and it will be quieter. And then I can hear myself think and I can hear my music better and I can think my own thoughts I guess. But in the summer, it& ; apos ; s a lots of different radios tuned to lots of different stations and lots of people laughing and playing and shouting and arguing and fighting and doing all kinds of things in public. Sometimes it& ; apos ; s washing fire hydrants you know and sometimes they open fire hydrants all the way in which case maybe on the top floor we don& ; apos ; t have quite as much water pressure as we should. And sometimes the firemen come around and they put a little sprinkler cap on a fire hydrant so the kids can play, which is nice. I like that. But for the sound of fire trucks, used to be quite a few fire trucks in the 70s. I lived through that period of the Bronx is Burning, when that& ; apos ; s what you heard sirens for ambulances, heroin addicts overdosing, and you heard fire trucks because there were fires, sometimes 40 fires in one day in one neighborhood. You know, really crazy it sounds. But that doesn& ; apos ; t happen quite so much anymore. We also have quieter ambulances. I think that they don& ; apos ; t use their sirens quite as much as they used to. I don& ; apos ; t know why but I see the lights but I don& ; apos ; t hear anything. I see the lights coming down the block. Maybe they changed the law. Maybe they& ; apos ; re just- the trend is different. Maybe they& ; apos ; re more conscious of people& ; apos ; s - I kind of think sometimes that that& ; apos ; s a sign of gentrification. If the neighborhood is getting quieter and there are more trees on the blocks, which of course there are more trees all over the whole city because of the Million Tree Project, but those kinds of things, those changes are signs of the neighborhood getting much more peaceful and much better. To me, that& ; apos ; s much better. Amy Starecheski: Ok. I promise this is last question and you just made me think of it. Was your family afraid of fire in the 70s, like did you have like escape plan if fire came to your home? Carol Zakaluk: We had all of the fire places, we have many fireplaces in both houses and there they were all blocked up by my grandfather. Long before the issues with multiple fires happened in the 70s. So we felt we were home, guarding our house, every night practically. We were very infrequently on vacation and we thought we would be lucky. But when there were fires we would keep a very good eye on where they were and which way the wind was blowing and we only had three exits and we all knew where they were. We knew that going out through the roof was more difficult. We had been up through the roof many times to repair the roof so we knew, " ; Man that& ; apos ; s really hard to get out that way. It& ; apos ; s never a fire we better not try that," ; but we didn& ; apos ; t we didn& ; apos ; t not have an escape ladder like my uncle had and Aunt Mary had out in Michigan, which I had been up and down a rope ladder that you throw out the second floor window and you practice going up down. I had done that with- at their house but we didn& ; apos ; t have one. So I thought that if I ever needed to jump onto the extension, that would be one floor and I could somehow survive jumping one floor and get out that way. So that& ; apos ; s my- do you have an escape plan? Amy Starecheski: We have a fire escape. Carol Zakaluk: Oh, you do? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Down the back the back. Carol Zakaluk: Down the back. Ah, that& ; apos ; s good Amy Starecheski: Yeah. And we have roof access. Carol Zakaluk: Do you use your roof? Amy Starecheski: No it& ; apos ; s- it& ; apos ; s in too poor conditions. It starts to leak if you walk on it. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Ours does too. So I tell my tenants and it& ; apos ; s written in lease only for emergencies. Amy Starecheski: I know it& ; apos ; s- it& ; apos ; s a shame because it& ; apos ; s lovely to be on on the roof, but, is there anything else that you wanted to add or say? Anything I missed? Carol Zakaluk: I don& ; apos ; t think there& ; apos ; s anything that you missed. I hope that I have adequately conveyed the experience of walking and being in this neighborhood. I think- I& ; apos ; m very curious to listen to Danny& ; apos ; s. When Danny Cervone finally does his because he& ; apos ; s a person that& ; apos ; s lived here close to the same number- he& ; apos ; s about my age he& ; apos ; s lived here a very long time. And because he& ; apos ; s Puerto Rican and was a drug user and had been in jail and all of the things that he& ; apos ; s going to talk about, his experience of being on the street is so different than mine and in some ways this is his neighborhood and not mine. So I& ; apos ; m very curious to see him talk about all the good things that he feels and how he can- I can walk down the street with Danny and on any given block, 12 people say hi to him. And he calls them all cousin. I don& ; apos ; t think they are all his cousins, but he calls them primo and I have the feeling that for somebody who is Puerto Rican this is a very different neighborhood. I& ; apos ; d like to hear what he has to say. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I& ; apos ; m excited. Carol Zakaluk: Are you going to interview Harry? Amy Starecheski: Maybe. Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Because he has been here since the & ; apos ; 93. Amy Starecheski: No he& ; apos ; s - Yeah. Gosh & ; apos ; 93. Yeah maybe. Yeah. I should interview Harry. Carol Zakaluk: Oh I mean it might be interesting. I bet he has really good things to say about urban planning because he& ; apos ; s studied that at Cornell. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: And he& ; apos ; s very involved in urban planning now in Greenwich Village. Amy Starecheski: Right. Carol Zakaluk: So I& ; apos ; m sure he thinks about it and detests the idea of gentrification and has insightful things to say. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. That& ; apos ; s a good idea. Well thank you so much. Carol Zakaluk: You& ; apos ; re welcome. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s really been amazing hearing all of this and I really appreciate all the work that you put into preparing and thinking about it. It& ; apos ; s been so, so interesting for me. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. I really appreciate your time. Carol Zakaluk: I appreciate you listening because I always put myself to sleep listening to myself again when I replayed the tape. I thought, " ; oh my God poor Amy has been listening to this for hours and hours." ; Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; ve loved it. Carol Zakaluk: You have? Oh, I& ; apos ; m so glad. Amy Starecheski: Now you& ; apos ; ll have this record for your family and to you to tell the story of these buildings which are so important. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah I& ; apos ; m probably going to be selective with who I- I tell that they& ; apos ; re there. It& ; apos ; s interesting to me, I do kind of have a little kind of question in the back of my mind about whether this is going to come back to bite me. Amy Starecheski: Mhm. Carol Zakaluk: Because I- and you have the link and it& ; apos ; ll probably appear in the archive also to the New York Times article that was about me in the houses because largely what happened to me because of that article was good. I got to speak at the Museum of Immigration downtown and you know people came out of the woodwork from P.S. 31 where I was in fourth, fifth and sixth grade and got in touch with me and people in the neighborhood saw it and it was a very positive thing. But one guy read the article and thought that he understood the situation of living next door without listening to my lecture on what it was like to live there and these are the rules and this is the rent. And here& ; apos ; s when utilities are due and don& ; apos ; t go on the roof and all of the things that I tell people he just said, " ; Oh I read the article. I don& ; apos ; t need to know that. Oh you know don& ; apos ; t worry about it." ; And he, I could tell was shutting down. So when he moved in, he made all kinds of assumptions based on something that was in his head, based on having read the article and it really didn& ; apos ; t work when he had moved in. So the article bit me in that one particular instance so I hope that there isn& ; apos ; t some person that listens to this in the future and takes something that I said the wrong way. No I didn& ; apos ; t want to offend anybody. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. No I mean you always hope that people will take these interviews in the same spirit of generosity in which they were given. You& ; apos ; re being really generous by sharing your experiences with the public and I think most people take it that way and you& ; apos ; re right that there is always that risk. You never know how people are going to hear things. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Right. Particularly far in the future. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: And I& ; apos ; d like to apologize for using slang. For all you people listening a hundred years from now, if you don& ; apos ; t know what hot to trot means or something that I may have said. It& ; apos ; s our ancient slang, then I apologize deeply. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; ll be- It will be a learning experience for them. So I& ; apos ; m sure they& ; apos ; ll love the slang it makes that way more interesting for them. Yeah. I hope so. I & ; apos ; m going to turn it off now. Carol Zakaluk: Thank you, Amy Starecheski. No problem. Thank you. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=
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Carol Zakaluk Oral History Interview | Session 3
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2018-02-21
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audio
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A third-generation Bronxite born in 1955, Carol Zakaluk has lived most of her life in Mott Haven. In 1921, her German/Dutch maternal grandparents bought a row house in the now-landmarked Bertine Block Historic District. Eventually, all four of Carol’s grandparents settled near one another in the neighborhood. The building has stayed in the family for 97 years, has been home to Carol and her husband for more than three decades, and is where Carol raised her daughter. Carol remembers the rise of the Mitchell Housing Projects vividly, as well as the difficult ‘70s and early ‘80s—and also many grassroots efforts to revive the neighborhood. Her mom, dad, and sister worked locally, teaching public school—and Carol, too, had several jobs in the neighborhood. She was an ESL teaching aide, then a grant and shop assistant for a sculptor, a co-director for the Haven Arts Gallery, and currently is a building manager for two small brownstones.
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This is the third of a 3-part interview. Carol Zakaluk, 62 years old at the time of the interview, is a third-generation native New Yorker whose connection to the Mott Haven neighborhood is tied to the properties she inherited from her grandparents and her own childhood. She discusses her father’s wish to give special historical consideration to some properties in her neighborhood, what it is like to live in an apartment complex in New York City and to be a landlady, life during the crack epidemic of the 1980’s, and community organizing. Particular detail is given to her efforts regarding the opening of Port Morris to the public. She also discusses her experiences with raising grant money through the Bronx Overall Economic Development Corporation and its impact on the neighborhood and gentrification.
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Amy Starecheski
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Carol Zakaluk
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer)
https://motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Zakaluk_Carol_20171118_session1.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Zakaluk_Carol_20171118_session1 2:15:14 Columbia Oral History MA Program Carol Zakaluk Amy Starecheski 1:|1(4)|18(12)|37(5)|62(5)|110(10)|130(3)|155(2)|170(3)|181(9)|197(3)|212(12)|224(14)|239(7)|262(3)|272(2)|282(11)|292(11)|310(5)|331(5)|347(13)|356(13)|366(8)|374(10)|385(9)|397(6)|406(15)|416(7)|430(11)|443(5)|459(6)|469(2)|477(6)|487(4)|499(4)|508(10)|523(2)|542(5)|562(3)|571(9)|588(3)|597(12)|615(5)|624(6)|632(16)|641(12)|652(11)|661(12)|680(12)|690(7)|700(4)|711(2)|721(3)|731(15)|740(11)|782(13)|802(4)|812(7)|821(14)|831(13)|842(5)|855(10)|865(2)|874(5)|884(12)|895(2)|903(7)|912(10)|922(7)|933(7)|943(6)|952(13)|963(2)|972(12)|980(6)|991(13)|1001(11)|1016(11)|1025(12)|1035(9)|1045(8)|1056(15)|1075(15)|1087(2)|1097(12)|1108(14)|1122(7)|1132(12)|1145(2)|1159(12)|1172(2)|1181(9)|1191(6)|1202(9)|1214(7)|1225(12)|1235(15)|1246(4)|1256(12)|1269(14)|1279(9)|1290(13)|1302(14)|1312(10)|1322(4)|1334(9)|1346(10)|1356(10)|1368(6)|1378(2)|1387(3)|1396(12)|1406(13)|1416(5)|1425(5)|1436(2)|1445(8)|1457(16)|1467(12)|1477(7)|1487(2)|1496(2)|1504(2)|1516(2)|1525(13)|1536(2)|1545(2)|1555(5)|1565(9)|1575(16)|1591(12)|1605(5)|1633(4)|1650(3)|1662(2)|1690(5)|1723(9) 0 SoundCloud audio < ; iframe width=" ; 100%" ; height=" ; 300" ; scrolling=" ; no" ; frameborder=" ; no" ; allow=" ; autoplay" ; src=" ; https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/1615603539& ; color=%23ff5500& ; auto_play=false& ; hide_related=true& ; show_comments=false& ; show_user=true& ; show_reposts=false& ; show_teaser=false& ; visual=true" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; Amy Starecheski: While we& ; apos ; re chatting. So- Carol Zakaluk: I suppose my only question is really, I& ; apos ; m in the category of I& ; apos ; m being interviewed because I& ; apos ; m telling my life story, in Mott Haven. Amy Starecheski: Yes. That& ; apos ; s right. Yes totally. Carol Zakaluk: Yes, right. And not more in the Mott Haven gentrification project. Amy Starecheski: Yes. Right, right. So you know I& ; apos ; ll tell you sort of what my thinking is about the project and what I& ; apos ; m interested in right now is that, you know, I think we have a sort of a story to understand. You know, disinvestment and arson and neighborhoods falling apart. And we have a story to understand what people talk about is gentrification but there& ; apos ; s not really a way of talking about other ways that neighborhoods change. And so part of what I& ; apos ; m interested in is being - by looking at the long - not just one period or the other but how the two connect together and what& ; apos ; s in between them in this neighborhood I think it& ; apos ; ll help us to understand something that otherwise has been kind of invisible about how cities work. Because you know I& ; apos ; ve only been here for 20 years but the neighborhood has changed a lot and now there& ; apos ; s this discourse of like oh Mott Haven& ; apos ; s changing and it& ; apos ; s been changing. It& ; apos ; s always been changing. So I think that with some starting off by talking to people who have been here the longest, just to hear what their experiences in the neighborhood have been. And so the way it works is that I& ; apos ; ll interview you - I think we might need more than one session we can start tonight and see how it goes. And I& ; apos ; m not in a rush and I& ; apos ; ll send you the audio when I& ; apos ; m done and you can listen to it and I& ; apos ; ll send you any transcript or index that I make but that& ; apos ; ll take a little longer. Carol Zakaluk: OK. No problem. Amy Starecheski: And if there& ; apos ; s anything that you say that you feel uncomfortable with or anything like that you can ask me to take it out. You can also say that like I can use the interview but only use like parts of it and only with your permission. You can say that you know I can use it but I can& ; apos ; t put it in an archive or share it for 10 years or that I put it into an archive and they close it for a period of time. You can also ask to use a pseudonym but you know it& ; apos ; s not the same as being an- being anonymous. And especially - Carol Zakaluk: Yeah, no. Amy Starecheski: - a person like you with such a unique experience I think you would still be knowable but you wouldn& ; apos ; t be like Google-able then. But you know most people choose to just make it open. But you definitely can listen to it and make any changes after the fact, so I don& ; apos ; t want you to feel like when we& ; apos ; re talking today that this is like going to just go right onto the internet or something. Carol Zakaluk: Right, right. Amy Starecheski: Because there& ; apos ; s a whole process in between where you can make more decisions and think about it. And the legal release that I use typically has you keeping the copyright to the interview but using a kind of Copyright called Creative Commons that allows other people to use it pretty freely as long as they acknowledge you as the owner of it. Carol Zakaluk: Source, okay. Amy Starecheski: And so there& ; apos ; s there& ; apos ; s also like different options and nuances around that and I& ; apos ; m happy to talk about any of it. Carol Zakaluk: Okay. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: I don& ; apos ; t have any plan to write the story of my life and publish it or anything at this time. Amy Starecheski: Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. At the request of the interviewee, a section of logistical conversation has been removed here. Carol Zakaluk: And I was thinking that we were going to have more than one session. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: So that I am going to go back a fair amount of decades. Amy Starecheski: Yes. Carol Zakaluk: To other generations- Amy Starecheski: That& ; apos ; s fantastic. Carol Zakaluk: Because four of my grandparents lived in Mott Haven. And that& ; apos ; s why I have to tell the story of how they got here. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: In order to fill in between them and me here. Amy Starecheski: Right. Carol Zakaluk: So it& ; apos ; s a really long process. Amy Starecheski: Yeah I& ; apos ; m not in any rush at all. I planned - for like for you know, academics are slow and I& ; apos ; m thinking this is like a five- to ten-year long project so - Oh, great. I& ; apos ; m going to be working on this for a while. Oh, wow. And I& ; apos ; m really, you know, starting - starting it up - because I want to do things right and do them carefully and do them well and it takes time to really figure out what you think about something and then to write that and publish it and bake things with it and all of that. So yeah I have all the time in the world but I am really eager to get started and start like- start hearing from people like you, so. Carol Zakaluk: Okay. Is there any way that I can unplug this to turn that light out? Just--? - Amy Starecheski: Yeah, totally, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it& ; apos ; s a lovely - it& ; apos ; s a lovely night to be inside and be cozy. Carol Zakaluk: Oh and also I& ; apos ; m going to tell you before we start that upstairs in the guestroom, the second floor, I have a bunch of toys for you, either look I& ; apos ; ll send you a photograph of them where you can take them home without you, but they& ; apos ; re there, and don& ; apos ; t leave without me showing them to you. Amy Starecheski: Oh, yes. Okay, yes. Okay, okay. I will remember, I will look at them. I& ; apos ; m going to just twist that one more time so it& ; apos ; s not touching your shirt. Okay, great. Carol Zakaluk: Great. At the request of the interviewee, a section of logistical conversation has been removed here. Amy Starecheski: Okay so let me introduce more formally. This is Amy Starecheski. I& ; apos ; m interviewing Carol Zakaluk. Today is November 18th 2017. We& ; apos ; re in her home in Mott Haven. It& ; apos ; s a rainy, cool Saturday evening and we& ; apos ; re sitting at her dining room table. So can you start off by telling me where and when you were born? Carol Zakaluk: Certainly. I was born October 15th 1955 in the Northwest - across from the Northwest--corner of St. Mary& ; apos ; s Park where there was a hospital known as St. Francis Hospital. And my brother was born there, my sister was born there before me, and then me. Amy Starecheski: So I want you to just start at the beginning and tell me about your family& ; apos ; s history in Mott Haven. Carol Zakaluk: Absolutely. Amy Starecheski: Start wherever you want, talk as long as you want, I& ; apos ; ll jump in and ask questions if you need help but you should feel free to just share what you want to share to get started. Carol Zakaluk: OK. I figure I would introduce you, one by one, to the four grandparents that I had: my mother& ; apos ; s parents and my father& ; apos ; s parents, because at one time or another they all lived in Mott Haven. In fact my grandparents on my mother& ; apos ; s side lived in the building we& ; apos ; re sitting in. Should I give my address? Amy Starecheski: If you want to, yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Why not? It& ; apos ; s 422 East 136 Street. So I& ; apos ; ll talk about them. And at one point my paternal grandparents lived across the street in the Northeast corner building which I could give you the address of later. So let& ; apos ; s start with Karel Boekhoff, who is the person I am named after. His name was K-A-R-E-L. Karel, which was a German-Dutch name and his parents were from Spandau, Germany, which is a section of Berlin [correction: lived in Winschoten, Holland--but originally they were both born in Germany.] and here they are, very sober looking And they decided that they would leave Berlin [correction: not Berlin but Germany] and they would go and start a new life in Holland. So they went to rather rural Holland to set up their new family. And the name of the town is Winschoten, but I& ; apos ; m not sure how to pronounce it in Dutch so I& ; apos ; m going to spell it: W-I-N-S-C-H-O-T-E-N. And they moved to Winschoten, and what did they do for a business? They set up a toy store. And they proceeded to have a lot of kids and the kids were extremely popular because their parents owned the toy store in Winschoten. Everyone skated and everybody had a really happy childhood, but when they got to be around 16, 17 years old, the parents told each kid that they had to kind of have a job and make sure that they could earn their own money. So here we come to Karel, who - here& ; apos ; s Karel. And he is a journeyman upholsterer. He has decided, more or less his parents told him, " ; You have to pick a trade. Go out and do something, be pretty sure that you can make money," ; so he became an upholsterer and when he was 24 he emigrated to the U.S. So there he is. And here is his family on a trip when he returned to Winschoten [showing photos] . Amy Starecheski: Oh my gosh. Carol Zakaluk: To give you an idea of the large family that he came from in Holland. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s a picture of probably more than 20 people, sort of a formal posed photograph at a garden. Carol Zakaluk: So Karel comes to the U.S. and he has no family here and he goes to work temporarily at the post office because he doesn& ; apos ; t have a lot of work as an upholsterer. So what happens when he& ; apos ; s at the post office? He meets Harriet Boekhoff - sorry Harriet Thaens, who turns out to be my grandmother. But let& ; apos ; s see what can I tell you about? He meets Harriet, and they fall in love. Let& ; apos ; s see, what else? Where is the picture of Harriet? He meets Harriet. Here& ; apos ; s Harriet. Here& ; apos ; s my Grandmother: Harriet Boekhoff, and who does she look like? Amy Starecheski: She looks like your daughter. Carol Zakaluk: She looks like my daughter, she looks like me - Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: And she looks like my mother. The four of us really look a lot alike and that& ; apos ; s pretty cool because Harriet was born in the Bronx. But I digress. Let& ; apos ; s stick with Karel Boekhoff first and then go back to Harriet. So, they meet at the post office, she& ; apos ; s much younger than he is and they decide that they& ; apos ; re going to be married. So they get married and they set up - oh here they are before they get married. There& ; apos ; s Harriet in Pelham Bay Park. Here& ; apos ; s Harriet and Karel in Pelham Bay Park. Amy Starecheski: They& ; apos ; re standing in, like, a wetland - it looks like, or a meadow, tall grass, and they have a like little like leisure - this is 1917 it says on the back they have like 1917 leisure outfits on, big white hats. Carol Zakaluk: Yes, they& ; apos ; re very cute. And here& ; apos ; s Harriet and her sister, Eva. And Harriet and Eva again. And that photo is probably in Castle Hill in the Bronx, which is where Harriet was born. I might as well go into Harriet. Amy Starecheski: Sure. Carol Zakaluk: Harriet is from a family of 10 children and their main seat was in Fourth Avenue which is now called Sunset Park in Brooklyn. So all of the 10 children except for one were born in the United States and in Brooklyn. Harriet happens to have been born in the Bronx because for a couple of years the family tried, some part of the family, tried living in the Bronx, they didn& ; apos ; t like it, it was too hilly, and they went back to Brooklyn. So, Harriet is from this very large family, and she gets with Karel, and they get married in Manhattan. And where is their wedding picture? Do you know where her family was from? Yes, I will be going back to that. Okay. Okay. Here& ; apos ; s Karel and Harriet, getting married, and they are very happy, but he& ; apos ; s much older as you can see, he& ; apos ; s more than I think 14 years older than she is. Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; m interested in looking at -there& ; apos ; s like a- all the pictures have like a stamp from the studios that made them. Carol Zakaluk: Yes. And sometimes there& ; apos ; s even an address. Amy Starecheski: Yes. This one& ; apos ; s 3rd Avenue. Carol Zakaluk: And often- many of the photographs that I have- Yes. Many of them were studios in the Bronx, but I know because I& ; apos ; ve read other documents last night that they got-- their wedding dinner was at 56th Street in Manhattan. So I& ; apos ; m not 100 percent sure whether they got married in the Bronx and then went to dinner in 56th Street in Manhattan, that doesn& ; apos ; t really make sense to me. I think they probably got married in Manhattan. Where they set up their domicile together was East 88th Street in Yorkville, which is where Germans lived back then. Her family, Harriet& ; apos ; s family, was from Germany. Her parents were from Germany and we& ; apos ; re going to get to them in a second. Here& ; apos ; s Harriet as an adult. And she lived in this house with Karel, of course. Now, I& ; apos ; m going to digress and go over to her family. This is - her parents, Harriet& ; apos ; s parents, and they were both from Germany [editorial note: specifically, Spandau, which is the old section of Berlin] and they came - he came in 1883 and she came in 1888. They met in the United States and were married. And they had 10 children: five boys and five girls, five fat ones and five skinny ones. And they were all funny [editorial note: humorous] . And, as I said before, they all lived in New York City and they stayed in New York City as adults raising their families, except for one who moved to Southampton, Long Island because it was the middle of his Nabisco Cookies sales route, when Southampton, Long Island was just dunes. So, he and his wife bought a 1920s farmhouse in downtown Southampton which today is two blocks from the ocean, two blocks from downtown, two blocks from the post office, two blocks from the library. It& ; apos ; s really centrally located and it& ; apos ; s stayed in the family all this time. And because that particular brother never had any children, didn& ; apos ; t want to have any children, everybody else& ; apos ; s children and families would visit him. And he was the only one that lived near the ocean and they loved the ocean. So in my life, going to Southampton and visiting Great Uncle Charlie was always a wonderful- Every summer we would spend 2 weeks there and we would often rendezvous with the other great aunts and uncles so I knew them very well and they were very much a part of our lives. And every single thing that we have in this house except for, maybe one desk and a couple of modern bookshelves on the top floor, everything is from the families of either my grandparents, my other grandparents across the street or one of these great aunts and uncles because they would die and we were here, living in New York also. So I enjoy eating on - Aunt Els--- Great Aunt Elsie& ; apos ; s kitchen table and Great Uncle Henry& ; apos ; s kitchen table on the top floor. It& ; apos ; s very much a warm feeling that I have as I go through the house remembering all these people who are now all dead. So back to them, this is, let& ; apos ; s see. This is a photo of the ten great aunts and uncles and their parents, these two, on their, let& ; apos ; s see, this is a wedding anniversary. So here& ; apos ; s their original wedding photo, and here they are having their wedding anniversary. And these are the great aunts and uncles sitting next to them at that table. [editorial note: Golden Wedding Anniversary. Charles Thaens and Mary Holtz were married in 1890. Present are their children Helen [b. 1862], Charles [b. 1894], Harriet [b. 1896], Fred [b. 1897], Henry [b. 1899], Elsie [b. 1900], Eva [b. 1902], Rudy [b. 1905], and Elise [known as " ; Lee," ; b. 1907]. The eldest child, William [b. 1890] was deceased at the time of this photo.] Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s a huge room full of - I don& ; apos ; t know, maybe 60 or 100 people eating at long tables, everyone& ; apos ; s face and the camera is really dressed up. 1940. Yep. Carol Zakaluk: Yep Mrs. Felzmann& ; apos ; s, I believe? Felzmann& ; apos ; s restaurant was the site of all the family celebrations because it was more or less down the street from where they all grew up in that Brooklyn house on 4th Avenue in Sunset Park. [editorial note: Felzmann' ; s address on the menu 991 Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn, NY, and date of the occasion is February 8th, 1940] So - Amy Starecheski: In the corner it says as union-made photograph, Knickerbocker pictures, 82 Court Street, Brooklyn New York. Carol Zakaluk: So this is one I really have to flatten one of these days. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s stored in a cardboard tube that says " ; Carol& ; apos ; s Copy" ; on it. Carol Zakaluk: This is a very popular photo in our family, let me tell you. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s amazing to have that of everybody together. Carol Zakaluk: I know, it& ; apos ; s not the only one. There& ; apos ; s at least one other one of a different family gathering, her birthday. Oh, here, maybe this is it. This is when -- her husband eventually died, they still continued to celebrate at Felzmann& ; apos ; s. This is her birthday and she is I don& ; apos ; t know how old. Old. And they& ; apos ; re still at Felzmann& ; apos ; s, and two different occasions, so here they are- so there& ; apos ; s at least three different occasions documented in these photographs. Amy Starecheski: Right. 1947 - looking at the backs, 1947, yeah they like this restaurant. Carol Zakaluk: Yes they do. Amy Starecheski: There& ; apos ; s kids and grownups, old people, young people. Carol Zakaluk: Of all of those 10 great aunts and uncles, only one of them finished high school because it, of course, was the Great Depression and they were not allowed to complete school. So, only Aunt Lee finished high school and she worked for Bell Telephone and did very, very well and never married and owns stock and she& ; apos ; s the one that stayed in the family property in Brooklyn so that whenever we had family gatherings in this city we all would go back to 4th Avenue in Brooklyn to her house and have uh, very jolly times. So that& ; apos ; s that end of the family, and I may go back to some of these people because they are all characters and they were very much part of our lives growing up. Very funny, wonderful people. So what can I tell you next? OK oh back to Harriet and Karel. Harriet and Karel got married, lived at East 88th Street and eventually they had Clara, my mother, the first-born. And Clara grew up for the first three years there on East 88th. And then, I& ; apos ; ll go back to Karel being an upholsterer, he made money being an upholsterer by working on furniture and draperies and big hotels in Manhattan and he did not have a vehicle but he would go to the Astor Hotel, he would do drawings for them showing what the draperies would look like when he was done repairing them. They would OK that, was really a very good artist. I have some of the art that he did showing lobbies and furniture repair. And they would OK that, he would then hire a truck, he& ; apos ; d go down and he& ; apos ; d bring the furniture back to the basement of this building and he would reupholster things, and then he would return them. So he did that. That was his living for years and years and years. And one of the people that he worked with was Miss Elsie Niemeyer. Elsie Niemeyer was a seamstress who helped him with curtains, etc. And she lived next door in 420, in the basement, where she lived and cooked for the man who owned the house and his name was Sterling S. Sterling, a graphic designer. I kid you not, I know, you& ; apos ; re allowed to laugh in this. Sterling Sterling. Sterling Sterling was a graphic designer and he, where& ; apos ; s Sterling? Here it is. He made things like this for a living. He was hired to make etchings, to create plaques. Here is a sample Sterling Sterling, " ; Department of Street Cleaning, George Waring, Jr. presented to him on his retirement," ; and he hand-lettered all of these things. And here is one that he made after my grandfather became his next-door neighbor. This was a thing that he made for my grandfather& ; apos ; s birthday. " ; Felicitations to the Winschoten boy of Holland who made good, the half century birthday of Karel Beckhoff, the man who always concentrated on the idea that & ; apos ; American& ; apos ; ends in & ; apos ; I can.& ; apos ; April 8th 1932 at the Boekhoff residence 422 East 136th Street. We all must remember the world& ; apos ; s greatest date and loudly exclaim on each April, the 8, & ; apos ; tis the birthday of Karel, the father of three, and the hubby of Mrs. Harriet B." ; So he was a wonderful guy, and to jump ahead for a minute, when Karel and Harriet got this house, my mother, Clara, became a special favorite of his, Sterling Sterling. So when Sterling Sterling decided that he was later-- I& ; apos ; m jumping way ahead --.When Sterling Sterling decided he was almost dying, and he wanted to pass the house on to somebody, he let Clara have first right of refusal for buying the house, and she wound up buying the house next door when she was married, etc. We& ; apos ; ll get there. So back to Karel being the upholsterer. Karel is an upholsterer and he works with Elsie Niemeyer and she lives in the basement next door and cooks for Sterling Sterling. Well, he comes up to visit Elsie Niemeyer and he sees the Bertine Block, in which we sit. This is the historic district known as the Bertine Block because Mr. Edward Bertine was the developer who built 10 houses on this side and 10 houses on the other side in 1891. Where am I? Amy Starecheski: He comes up, he sees the Bertine Block. Carol Zakaluk: He comes up, thank you. He sees the Bertine Block and he decides that it looks like Holland. And he says, " ; I really really love it here, Elsie. Let me know if anything comes available." ; So when this house becomes available because the guy that owned it for 25 years whose last name was Brandt, B-R-A-N-D-T, could no longer pay the mortgage. He was in it for 25 years doing fine, and then suddenly something happened. He owed only 5,000 more dollars on it and he defaulted. So the house is now up for auction. And of all places the auction site is what is now the Chase Bank on 137th Street and Lincoln. It was then the South Bronx Board of Trade so that& ; apos ; s where the house is up for auction. So Elsie Niemeyer tells Karel, and Karel and Harriet both go to that building and Elsie goes too and they made the largest bid. They offered something like 7,500 dollars for it, something like that. And on the spot they had to pay 750 dollars. So Elsie loaned that to Karel because she really liked him and thought he& ; apos ; d be a good neighbor, wanted to see somebody good next door. And during the first month he had to come up with another amount of money. 3,000 dollars, she owed, loaned him that also. And so over the course of time it took him 12 years to pay off both Elsie Niemeyer and the church or whatever the bank that owned the rest of the house. I don& ; apos ; t know for sure who the mortgage holder was but it took him 12 years, he worked really hard and eventually it was his and Harriet& ; apos ; s. So that& ; apos ; s the story of how Harriet and Karel came to move in here, and he added the shelf around the top of the room we& ; apos ; re sitting in, which he called a " ; Dutch shelf" ; so that you could display plates. And this is wallpaper. It looks like the walls are made of wood because they& ; apos ; re very dark brown but it& ; apos ; s actually wallpaper that you can still get through certain English companies in white in four or five different patterns and then you can paint it whatever color you want. But he really liked the dark idea of dark wood because that& ; apos ; s what you saw in Europe of his youth. And I think Harriet did not like how dark it was. But even after he died she did not paint it. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s like a textured wallpaper that kind of looks like stamped tin. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah, it looks like stamped tin. Exactly right. But it& ; apos ; s - it& ; apos ; s paper alright, and one of these days I& ; apos ; m probably taking this wall paper off on that wall because it& ; apos ; s crumbling behind there and I will paint that one wall and keep the rest of it. Amy Starecheski: What year was it that they moved in here? Do you know, approximately? Carol Zakaluk: Yes. Yes 1921. So my family& ; apos ; s been here for 96 years. And it& ; apos ; s been a long time. And then, Harriet had three children and we& ; apos ; re going to go over them. Clara was first and very vicious [Please check the recording--I meant vivacious! Never vicious.] and really a happy kid, very, a little bit chubby, very round. And what followed her was Mary. Now Clara was born in Yorkville, but Mary and Robert were born here. In fact Robert was born in the second floor front room. And let& ; apos ; s see if I can just show you a couple of pictures. This is shortly after they bought this house. That& ; apos ; s Clara and that is Karel and Harriet. Amy Starecheski: They look really happy in this picture. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah they look pretty happy. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s a studio portrait which is kind of unusual for people to have much expression on their face at this - Carol Zakaluk: And this is Harriet and Clara around the same year at some sort of social gathering. And in that one she really looks like me, I think, old Harriet. And this is the three kids together. That& ; apos ; s Robert in the middle, who& ; apos ; s probably around 15 or 14. And Mary is at least three years older, so maybe 18, and Clara is probably 20. Amy Starecheski: Clara looks just like Harriet. Carol Zakaluk: You think? Yeah, she does. She really does. Yep. And then here& ; apos ; s Robert again and then here& ; apos ; s the last one of Robert and now we get to a sad twist because Clara and Mary were very happy, very good at school, really excellent students. And Karel was kind of strict because he was from the old country and he wanted them to make sure that they would toe the line about many things. So Clara and Mary excelled at school. Clara went on to - well always wanted to be a teacher. And so she made sure that she went to Hunter College which was kind of I guess for smart girls, back then. It was all girls. And for somebody her age to go to college was unusual back then and Mary went to Vassar and was, practically got a master& ; apos ; s degree in psychology and was only short the thesis. So they were very high achievers. But at age 15, Robert, who was kind of a sensitive boy who liked English and poetry, wrote poetry, asked grandpa, my grandpa, Karel, if he could smoke and said, " ; You know the other boys are kind of mean to me in gym, in particular, and you know pushing me and whatnot." ; And, Karel said, " ; No, not old enough to smoke, sorry." ; And unfortunately Robert committed suicide and no one is quite sure why he didn& ; apos ; t reach out to anyone. He committed suicide, born in the house, second floor, front room, committed suicide in the top floor middle room, and was found by my mom. And this is the family tragedy. In fact it was such a tragedy that nobody told us three children, Clara& ; apos ; s three children, we were not allowed to know about it until we had passed the age at which he committed suicide. So we were told, this photograph of Robert golfing was up on the mantel piece. And whenever we would ask, " ; what happened to Robert again, grandma?" ; Harriet would say he died of a disease and she was vague about what the disease was, she would not really specify. " ; Oh you& ; apos ; re too young to understand," ; and she would get very quiet but we never suspected until one day when I was about 14 or 15 when one of my cousins told me because it had slipped out in her family. So that& ; apos ; s a very unfortunate thing that happened. It& ; apos ; s possible he was gay. That stuff wasn& ; apos ; t talked about back then. Who knows? And we certainly don& ; apos ; t know. We have some compositions that Robert wrote in school. And that& ; apos ; s it,- he was a decent writer. So that& ; apos ; s -. Amy Starecheski: He was a teenager when he committed suicide? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah, he was 15. So I& ; apos ; m very sad and I& ; apos ; m very sorry that I never got to know my uncle because this was well before I came along. So Mary, his elder sister, was very close to him because she was closer in age to Robert. So she was quite broken up about it and she began to stutter and never lost her stutter for the rest of her life but only she - she only stuttered when she was very nervous about something, she didn& ; apos ; t stutter all the time. She just stuttered once in a while, so. But other than that Aunt Mary had a terrifically successful life. She wound up marrying a chemist who she met, she-- after she graduated from Vassar. Aunt Mary wound up being a secretary, unfortunately. Amazing that women could only get work as secretaries! She became a secretary in the Chemistry department at Princeton, and she wound up marrying a Princeton graduate student who was working with Einstein, and he went on to do really good, important things in the chemical world. And he moved her to, eventually, to California and they had four tremendous cousins who were close in age to me [editorial note: " ; children," ; I meant, who were my cousins] . So even though my brother and sister are much older than I am, I was the same age as my four California cousins and I often got farmed out for two weeks a year to be with the Todds-- the David Todd family with Aunt Mary, and I just love them to this day. They& ; apos ; re like my brothers and sisters. In addition to my own sister and brother. So here& ; apos ; s-- we& ; apos ; re going to forget about Robert-- sorry Robert--don& ; apos ; t know you enough to tell anymore about you. Here& ; apos ; s Aunt Mary in high school graduating, Aunt Mary graduating from Vassar. Amy Starecheski: Do you know where she went to high school? Carol Zakaluk: I know my mother went to Julia Richmond High School and then to Hunter, but --but I don& ; apos ; t know where Mary went, but I could find out. And then just one picture of the thousands of pictures I have. This one is not a cousin, that& ; apos ; s a wife of a cousin, but these are the four Todds. There& ; apos ; s Uncle Dave the scientist, Aunt Mary, Becca, Brian, Raymond and Cliff and that& ; apos ; s Brian& ; apos ; s wife, Denise, but, awesome family. Amy Starecheski: So, now we& ; apos ; re in color. Carol Zakaluk: Now we& ; apos ; re in color. Amy Starecheski: And maybe in the 80& ; apos ; s, it looks like, I& ; apos ; m judging by the outfits. Carol Zakaluk: Yes, now we& ; apos ; re in the 80& ; apos ; s. I literally have thousands of photographs of the Todds, me and the Todds, us and the Todds, Todds doing fun things, and there will be more because they& ; apos ; re still very active with us and there& ; apos ; s my mom graduating from Hunter. Happy lady. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. It& ; apos ; s a beautiful picture. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. So Karel not only worked in hotels like the Astor Hotel and brought things to the basement. He also at one point was part of a craft guild that had a storefront on 138th Street. So these are all the craft guild members who shared rent on that craft guilds shop. And I& ; apos ; m so sorry I don& ; apos ; t know the address of it. I& ; apos ; d love to know. And that& ; apos ; s Karel in the back. Lots of people have their work aprons on. I couldn& ; apos ; t tell you anything. I guess they& ; apos ; re plumbers and they& ; apos ; re electricians and -. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s all men. There& ; apos ; s maybe 40 of them. Carol Zakaluk: Yep. Amy Starecheski: Lots of mustaches. Carol Zakaluk: Lots of mustaches. Amy Starecheski: And yes, some of them are wearing aprons, vests, all wearing ties, pretty much. Carol Zakaluk: Oh yes, they were very formal craftspeople. When I renovated this house, when it became mine and my husband& ; apos ; s, and I took things out of the basement, on recycling day, the line of old tacks and old, little " ; doo hickeys" ; that you needed for upholstering fabrics and furniture went from the front of 422 property line to the front of 420, so 30 feet of boxes of rusty tacks and rusty nails and things like that, that he was-- that he kept in the basement because that& ; apos ; s where he worked. So I still have about three or four of his tools that are very beautiful shapes that he would use to make the outlines for furniture. And I& ; apos ; m very happy to have those, and clamps-- very unusual, huge wooden clamps that he used to hold glued pieces together downstairs. And that& ; apos ; s my tribute to Karel. So, let& ; apos ; s see. This is just the last few pictures I& ; apos ; ll show you. This is the Bertine Block in 1891. Before the houses across the street, which are also landmarked, were built. Amy Starecheski: Oh my gosh. Carol Zakaluk: So that is in the, one, or one-and-a-half years before the houses across the street were started, because the photographer is standing in the empty lot on the north side. Amy Starecheski: Not just they& ; apos ; re- they& ; apos ; re very pretty three-story buildings. They have -they& ; apos ; re unusual partially because they have a wide range of different kinds of roof lines on them, the decorative touches. Beautiful, beautiful buildings. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. They& ; apos ; re really great buildings. Bertine thought that he would make extra money building this developmental project by making them 15 feet wide instead of the traditional 20 feet. So he could cram more houses into the shorter amount, into his space, and make more money that way. And this dawned on me one day when I was looking out, the top floor window onto the street when, maybe in the 70& ; apos ; s, and I looked straight down and I saw my father& ; apos ; s station wagon parked immediately in front of the house and it was exactly the same width as the house, an I thought, " ; Wow. We live in a narrow house!" ; One of the ways in which you feel that in the day to day-ness of living in this building is this the size of the furniture has to be a little bit scaled smaller in order to actually go up and down the staircase to get into the different rooms. And now that I& ; apos ; m the landlady of 420 next door, every time I move somebody in I& ; apos ; m sure to warn them in advance, particularly if they haven& ; apos ; t bought any furniture yet: make sure you buy your queen size bed in two pieces, in two halves, in order to get it up the steps. So anyway, and last but not least I have this fantastic old picture of 420, so pretty with its second floor bay window.I think it& ; apos ; s probably the nicest of all of the houses in the Bertine Block, just my prejudice, I& ; apos ; m sure. Amy Starecheski: One of the things that& ; apos ; s interesting about them is they have the numbers put in little stained glass panels above the front doors and the numbers are old. They& ; apos ; re 600 numbers, they& ; apos ; re old numbers. Carol Zakaluk: They& ; apos ; re old numbers because the numbers - the numbering system in the stained glass was from when this was called North New York, not yet the Bronx. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: So 676 is, I think our stained glass number, and sometimes Chinese food guys, when they don& ; apos ; t know us yet, go around and around and around the block because the light shines through the stained glass at night and they think, " ; 676, that& ; apos ; s not right!" ; and they go around and around. So what else can I tell you about us? I could go back and tell you about my, my parents more. My mom, was, of course, did become a teacher. She was a teacher right out of the box graduating from Hunter. She chose to go to a town on Long Island where there is a laboratory. Brookhaven. Brookhaven, which is a relatively small town on Long Island. She was the principal of a school that had four classes in it. So yes, my mom was, right in the box was a principal, and she loved being a teacher. Loved loved loved loved loved. I have not yet talked about my dad very much. My dad, that was of course --Clara Boekhoff, is, uh, working on Long Island--. But let& ; apos ; s go back to when she was 16 and living in New York, living here in this house and she went to Julia Richmond High School. One day, she was coming home from school and visiting her friend Sophie Sochernik, who lived on 100th street. And she, my mom, always loved candy. My mom, as I mentioned, was kind of a round person and she loved sweets. So my mom had a bag of candy. She goes to - walks from 62nd Street up to 100th Street because they like walking. They get to Sophie& ; apos ; s block and there are a bunch of Sophie& ; apos ; s neighbors. So my mother holds out her paper bag of candy and offers it to all the people, and my father is one of the people. And he& ; apos ; s 15. And he notices because this is the kind of mind my father has, very scientific and very observant. My father notices that there are exactly enough pieces of candy to go around to the people standing in the group but none for her. And my mother is beaming and so happy to meet everybody and so generous with this candy and my father thinks this woman is especially generous and that& ; apos ; s really unusual and I take note. So my father and my mother start dating when they& ; apos ; re 15, 16 and there is, on my computer, and I can show it to you another time or later I can dredge up my father and my mother on their first date roller skating in Central Park. And they& ; apos ; re very cute, very cute. And they did not immediately feel the need to get married or anything, they didn& ; apos ; t get married until they were 24, 25. But they loved each other and they dated. They went to the same camp which was for young adults in New Jersey called Camp Karamac, actually Delmar -Delaware Water Gap area. I think that& ; apos ; s New Jersey, maybe it& ; apos ; s Pennsylvania. [editorial note: Camp Karamac was partly in NJ and partly in PA, along the Delaware Water Gap] . They& ; apos ; re both in Camp Karamac, some summers and they certainly see a lot of each other. My mom does kind of temporarily fall in love with another camp Karamac guy who is of German descent. And everybody has a nickname at this camp. So my mother& ; apos ; s nickname is Pantywaist because she& ; apos ; s a kind of a good girl and does everything right. The romantic interest who grows up to be a doctor later, his name is Santa for Santa Klaus because his real name is Klaus, and my father& ; apos ; s nickname is Blackjack. So, everybody has a nickname. My mom is really smitten, but they would not allow Klaus and Clara to get married, Klaus& ; apos ; s parents, because she was not well-to-do enough. So she would have interfered with his big plans to become a doctor. Lucky, lucky for my dad that that happened, because he was her fallback. And so Stephen Zakaluk wins out and they get married. But let& ; apos ; s go back and talk about him for a minute. His parents were Michael Zakaluk and Anastasia Zakaluk. Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; m gonna just move your microphone if you don& ; apos ; t mind. Carol Zakaluk: Oh, sure. No problem. Amy Starecheski: It& ; apos ; s rubbing a little bit right there. Carol Zakaluk: OK. There we go. Amy Starecheski: There you go. Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: So Michael Zakaluk and Anastasia Zakaluk were both from the Ukraine and they did not know each other in the Ukraine. They were from towns that were not too far apart, near Lvov and she back in Lvov, Anastasia Zakaluk, whose name back then was Fedychenskaya & ; apos ; cause she was not yet married to Michael Zakaluk Anastasia Fedychenskaya was one of many children and they were - the boys especially-- were continuously sent off to fight in various skirmishes, not war even, but just first this one dies and then one dies and then this one dies and suddenly she is the eldest. So the family expects her to get married to better their situation in this little town, and they expect her to marry an eligible older man from the next village and she says, " ; You know what I& ; apos ; ve - I have done the right thing. I& ; apos ; ve done everything you& ; apos ; ve asked me to do my whole life of 17 years but this I will not do. I will not marry that guy." ; So she decided she would, all by herself, go to America. And say, you know, didn& ; apos ; t --loved her family and loved everything about her village and her traditions, but she decided that she would get on a boat in Bremen in Germany and sail to America. She had one woman who was willing to say she was a cousin so that she could enter, you know, at Ellis Island and who would give her a job cooking and caring for two or three kids. So she lived in a very small room. She made two or three meals a day and on Saturdays or Sundays she could sit on the stoop and have some time to talk with neighbors or have some time to herself. And that& ; apos ; s how she wound up meeting Michael Zakaluk & ; apos ; cause he knew she was available. He had come around the same time - he came with nobody at all. And he spent his first night sleeping on a bench in Central Park. Yes. Amy widens her eyes as I did too when I heard that factoid about him! So they decide that they& ; apos ; re ready to make a family together. They& ; apos ; re ready to get married. They get married. I have an incredible almost hilariously atrocious wedding photo of them. They look so stiff and they have so many layers. I can - definitely have to find that one to show you and so many layers and she has so many flowers on her head you can practically not see her face and they both look really stern, you know, on their wedding day! But there was that picture and it was in their house for every Sunday when we went to visit. There was that wedding picture sitting right above where she was sitting, so I got to know it very well. Anyway, so they got married and they set up a Ukrainian grocery store. The first one was on 5th -- 4th Street. The second one was on 3rd Street and the third one was on 5th Street in the Ukrainian area of the Lower East Side which is still where one goes to go to Veselka' ; s, which I do regularly where nobody else can cook like grandma Zakaluk in New York City except maybe the people at this restaurant [Editorial note: If I said, " ; office," ; I misspoke!] . So I, I& ; apos ; m a regular there and that& ; apos ; s where my dad grew up. Often they had one or two rooms behind the grocery store. A couple of times they had rooms either across the street or above the grocery store. And not only did they sell groceries but they also supplied all of the local Ukrainian churches, and there were many, with holiday fare. I think my grandmother cooked a turkey every other day of her life while she was working which we found hilarious because my mother did not cook very much. In fact my mother living across the street from grandma Zakaluk and next door to her own mother, my mother never made a turkey in her life until she was over 50 years old because there were these other two ladies who lived right there. So anyway, during their work life they were mostly based on the Lower East Side. For fun, my grandfather Zakaluk - Michael Zakaluk-- used to jump on the trolley or the subway and he would go to the end of the line and then turn around and come back and he did this partly to get away from Grandma Zakaluk who talked a lot and who was always yelling at him. And partly because, at least this was his excuse, & ; apos ; cause he said that she - that he needed to keep an eye out on other parts of the city where a grocery store might be needed just in case he got priced out of the Lower East Side. And lo and behold after the, the Fifth Street store - I guess when they were about 50 years old or so, he decided to move the store to East 100th street, which is where my father was for part of his teenage years and where he met my mother. So good thing they moved the grocery store to 100th Street or they would never have met. So grandma and grandpa Zakaluk lived on East 100 Street until my parents got married, and my parents got married when they were 24 and 25 years old. My father was a Lieutenant during World War II and then upon exiting World War II they elevated him to Captain. It was like an honorary discharge promotion so that he would receive the benefits of a Captain in his retirement from the military. But they got married while he was still in, and Clara was living here at the time. He came home on leave and they got married in that building in the Bronx that has the statue of a woman sitting outside that was called & ; apos ; No Longer Empty& ; apos ; for a while? Amy Starecheski: Oh yeah the Friedman home. Carol Zakaluk: No, not that one. Amy Starecheski: No not the Friedman home. That was east of the Friedman home. It was a- it was a courthouse. Oh I know what you mean. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. The courthouse. So that& ; apos ; s the building they got married in. With the big steps? Carol Zakaluk: With the big steps, big steps. Amy Starecheski: Yes? okay. On The Concourse. Carol Zakaluk: On the - No it wasn& ; apos ; t on The Concourse. Amy Starecheski: Oh. Carol Zakaluk: It was on 3rd Avenue, I think. Amy Starecheski: Oh, ok. I must be thinking of something- I& ; apos ; ll find out. Ok. I& ; apos ; ll find out the address and we& ; apos ; ll clarify it later. But I went up there later. Recently it was open for art shows that were called & ; apos ; No Longer Empty& ; apos ; separately and I went there and I photographed - Oh yes OK I know what you& ; apos ; re talking about, the old courthouse building. Yes, yes, yes. Ok. Yes. Carol Zakaluk: The old courthouse building with the statue of a woman holding a spear or something sitting on the second floor you can see it when you ride by on the 21 bus. Anyway, so that& ; apos ; s where they got married and then they bought some peonies and you should see their wedding photo. Oops. Amy Starecheski: These microphones are just tricky. Do you want to grab the photo? Carol Zakaluk: Ok. I& ; apos ; ll grab the photo. I& ; apos ; m going on and on about this. Amy Starecheski: No I& ; apos ; m loving it. It& ; apos ; s amazing that you know all that so few people really know their family history this way. Carol Zakaluk: Oh, well. There they are. Amy Starecheski: Oh my gosh, look at them. Carol Zakaluk: They& ; apos ; re happy. They were extremely well suited and so happily married for more than 50 years and they just they had never slept with anybody else and they never did in their entire lives, it was just each other, and I guess I could say that without embarrassment, they& ; apos ; re dead. But I mean that& ; apos ; s kind of rare. And they were both wonderful, fantastic people and through all the years of Mott Haven& ; apos ; s ups and downs they created inside our house--. Then I skip ahead--. But they made it so pleasant to be with them inside, that it didn& ; apos ; t matter what was going on outside - well of course it mattered, and it was unpleasant in many ways. The decline of Mott Haven in the 70s and the late 60s, part of the 80s--, but they were just, they made this magical world that was so wonderful for kids, you know? Part of that was my mom. She decided early on in life before Robert& ; apos ; s suicide, Robert& ; apos ; s suicide was not the reason, she just decided that her life was more fun when she made things pleasant for other people. She decided to make other people happy. Early on in her life as a child and she just got a bang out of giving stuff away and being nice to people and making them laugh and blowing their minds, like they would say, " ; I can& ; apos ; t believe you bought that for us" ; or " ; I can& ; apos ; t believe you brought that for us" ; or " ; I can& ; apos ; t believe you made that- those costumes for us for Halloween" ; or those extra materials for her classes. She just was like a Mrs. Santa Claus personified. That& ; apos ; s really the closest analogy that I can think of. And he was pretty fun too. I mean he would love children. He loved animals. He was super smart and very calm. She was a lot more nervous and flighty and he was very rock solid. Nothing phased him. Everything was going to be OK. There was nothing to worry about. So the combination of her energy and kind of manic " ; oh let& ; apos ; s do this, let& ; apos ; s do that." ; She was a great school teacher. She went on to be invited to be a mentor teacher which she refused because she really wanted to retire and do other things with her life. But they were very encouraging of her to go on after retirement to be a mentor teacher. He, I think was motivated by her to go to college. He didn& ; apos ; t even think of going to college until he got out of the end of high school. Then he thought well maybe I would like the things I would like to study. So he went to Brooklyn College and studied geology and got a degree, Bachelor& ; apos ; s of Science in Geology and then he continued at Cooper Union and went three years toward becoming an engineer and did very well, but it began to be harder and harder, and also by that time they were married and living on the top floor where they- where they were first living when they were married was in this house on the top floor which had been made into an apartment for them. So they& ; apos ; re living on the top floor, my brother is born, Stevie Zakaluk, Stevie Carl Michael Zakaluk, so let& ; apos ; s call him Steve C.M. to distinguish him from Steve W. Steve C.M. is born and living on the top floor. I have many pictures I can show you on the computer of their life in the 40s. And then Sterling Sterling decides that he& ; apos ; s about to die and he makes Clara the offer and they then confer. They have a budding family and yes they decide they wouldn& ; apos ; t mind living next door to Harriet, built-in babysitter. So they buy the house next door, 420, and they are so happy there. I have also incredible photos of 420 when it is all painted and fresh and so happy and everybody& ; apos ; s smiling like a wild man. My brother has toys all over the place. And then along comes my sister, Susan Zakaluk, and so I have - I& ; apos ; ve got a gazillion photos- I can show them now if you would like to see them. Amy Starecheski: I& ; apos ; m curious to see them but I feel like we should look at them when we can - maybe like look at them and look at the transcript together so we can tie them in. Carol Zakaluk: Ok. So I will not show you those now but this is during the period when it& ; apos ; s the 40s and there are no projects in Mott Haven yet. The projects on this corner were built in 1961. The Mitchell Houses just west of us and the east of us, I think they were built the Millbrook Houses a little bit earlier than that. But the influx of Blacks and Puerto Ricans didn& ; apos ; t really come until the 50s. So I think life was different here growing up for my brother and sister than it was for me because in 1948 I think is when things started changing somewhat, and a lot of African-Americans started moving up from Harlem because there were big fires in Harlem then and they needed places to move to, so they moved here somewhat. And there was a large influx of people from Puerto Rico. My mom did not- I should have mentioned she stopped teaching when my brother was born. And she did not go back to teaching until I was 13 years old. So there was a long period during which they had less money because my mom was not working but which - in which my mother was home with us. So that& ; apos ; s part of that idyllic--. In the house was giant fun every day. We had a built-in teacher living with us so we could all read really well by the time we went to school. We were all advanced several reading levels and they would shove us at a desk off to ourselves. We had our own reading group and our own math group, all of us. My brother skipped three times, my sister and I were also asked to skip three times. And my mother said " ; no" ; for my sister and I because she had learned with my brother that he got to- when he got out of Bronx Science High School, he was not old enough to go to his preferred college, which was West Point. He really wanted to follow my father into the military because when my father left World War II, he was - really wanted to stay in the military. The military that had made him a Captain when he hadn& ; apos ; t even done anything. You know he was " ; Stay, stay in." ; But my mother said, " ; No, we really- really need you at home. We& ; apos ; d really like to have you here with us. Plus we don& ; apos ; t want to move all the time. Look at this great situation we have." ; And what happened with my father& ; apos ; s parents is that after 100th Street, as soon as my brother was born, they decided that they wanted to be closer to their eldest son, Steve, and so they moved across the street. So they lived in the corner north - northeast corner building of Willis Avenue and 138 Street [correction: should be 136th St.] and Grandma Bekhoff lived in this house. My parents lived in 420. Karel Boekhoff died of tuberculosis which my family used to think was partly because he had inhaled a lot of sawdust and a lot of possibly asbestos working in the basement. There was asbestos that I had to have removed before I bought the house. At any rate he died in 1956, one year after I was born. So he got to know me for a year. He was super happy my name was Carol. My father wanted my name to be Coral, C-O-R-A-L, because he was a geology major but my mother said, " ; No, kids will make fun of her, they won& ; apos ; t understand that, no one' ; ll spell it right." ; So I became Carol. But I should consider using Coral as one of my online names--I didn& ; apos ; t think of that until now! So that& ; apos ; s kind of where we& ; apos ; re at. My father went from being- went to Brooklyn College, then got three years into being an engineer. And then he went to work for 15 years at a place called Kollsman Instruments in Elmhurst, Queen being a mechanical engineer for a company that made airplane parts and specifically altimeters which were largely used in the war effort and in military applications. So he wore a white shirt every day, he wore an overcoat. He had a little hat and he went out 9:00 to 5:00 every day. And then one day, when the military was not cranking out quite so many airplanes anymore, the entire engineering business across the whole country had to lose 15 percent of people because there wasn& ; apos ; t enough work for them. And because my father had routinely been 15 minutes late, they said, " ; That& ; apos ; s the only reason, Steve, we have to let you go. You know we& ; apos ; re looking for excuses who to fire, to cut somebody and at least there& ; apos ; s this excuse for you." ; So after 15 years of being an engineer my father switched to being a teacher. And so, both my parents when I was around 13 years old, went to work at P.S. 30 which is across from Brook Park at 141st and Brook. And they were both teaching there for -my mother wound up putting in 20 years there my father put in 10 and then they transferred him to a school in Queens and he did his final years of working as a teacher in Queens. So that was a very cool period because they did lesson plans together. They talked about teaching every night at dinner. That was the topic of conversation. My sister wound up going to college at Bryn Mawr. First of all she went to Hunter High School, which was kind of an elite high school. Then she went to Bryn Mawr, which was at that time a very elite, hard to get into girls& ; apos ; school, and then she became a teacher, high school level, at Math, a Math teacher. So while I was in high school my sister was a high school Math teacher at Samuel Gompers, is where she started, which is in the South Bronx just a few subway stops north of here and she just- that was the first interview she went to, and they said, " ; Would you like this job?" ; And she thought, " ; Well, it& ; apos ; s really close to home." ; She went to graduate school at Fordham, so she was familiar with being in the Bronx and she just said OK I& ; apos ; ll- I& ; apos ; ll try it. And she was there for her first 7 years. And it was a really, really hard school to teach in because those kids at the time did not want to learn anything. And I visited her twice and the principal met with me before I was allowed to spend time with my sister being in class with her. And they said wear pants. " ; Wearing pants? Check. Good. You& ; apos ; re a woman, you must wear pants in the school!" ; All-boys technical high school. And I was supposed to carry books and look like a teacher even though I was in high school because they did not want anything to happen to me. And in every class that I attended with Susan they were an average of three students sitting in - in the classroom and the rest would get up after - the first-- after attendance was taken and wander in the halls and make money--not make money make noise--and get into fights. And it was just the opposite of everything you think of when you think of school. But while my sister taught there or ,you know, you can' ; t call it " ; Teaching," ; she also came up with some very interesting and new ways of allowing kids who were reluctant students to excel. Including team teaching and making students work with each other in small groups. She suggested to the principal that they cluster the tables in small groups and that each small group had a team leader who was strong and these went- wound up being used throughout the school system, later when she got promoted to different schools and eventually became Director of Math for The City of New York. So Susan went on to be Director of Math for The City of New York. Stevie, he went on to -he went to Bronx Science then he went to City College which was his choice. He couldn& ; apos ; t get into West Point because he was too young. He was 15 when he went to college. So he went to a school that he, his friend went to. So Nick Mallon went to City College so Stevie did too. And he did well at City College and joined ROTC because he wanted to be in the military and he did very well and immediately went in as a Second Lieutenant and later retired - I& ; apos ; m skipping ahead a lot! But my brother retired as a Major and has only been retired a few years and loves everything about the military. He& ; apos ; s very glad that he did what he did. Back to my dad- I& ; apos ; ve pretty much talked about him. He& ; apos ; s - he was a wonderful, incredible human being. So is my mom. They lived in Mott Haven happily for a very long time. Eventually they both retired. They continued to live in Mott Haven for a very short while and then at that point my mother& ; apos ; s great Uncle Charlie who& ; apos ; s the one who settled in Southampton, my mom became kind of his business handler because he was quite elderly so they made frequent trips out to help Uncle Charlie with this and that. And he wrote into his Will that they would be able to buy his property for half price when he died. And so they decided that they would, in fact, buy his house. And that& ; apos ; s where they moved to, from the South Bronx to Southampton. I did not yet touch upon their habits of living in the house. They were, at the end of their lives -of their work lives, they were- they could be considered hoarders. They had a lot of stuff and when they moved to Uncle Charlie& ; apos ; s, which was full of Charlie& ; apos ; s stuff, they did not take anything from their house at 420, they just moved themselves and eventually they would come back and forth of course to visit and they would come to see us, etc. But they did not really clean out their house at 420. So eventually when it became possible for us to- I guess I left that part out. Let& ; apos ; s go back for a minute to Harriet Boekhoff lived in this house and her husband died. Karel died. And Harriet still lived here and she still had an apartment on the top floor, which you remember is where my father and mother lived when they were first married and their first son was born. When I got to be approximately 21 and out of college I decided that I would go and live in San Francisco. So I took nine months and a backpack and I decided I would go across Canada and go slowly and see the world - not really the world, see Canada! I had a thousand dollars as a gift which is the only money that I had. Uncle Charlie, the Southampton guy, was very proud of anybody in the family that graduated from college because he hadn& ; apos ; t. And all of his siblings had not. So he gave me a thousand dollars and I thought, " ; Bingo! That& ; apos ; s enough for the kind of ticket that would allow me to get on and off the Canadian Pacific Railway as much as I wanted," ; an open ticket and I could buy a backpack and travel with my girlfriend Rene and we could go across Canada. So that& ; apos ; s what I did for nine months when I was 21 years old. I went-. Let& ; apos ; s backtrack for just a minute to my schooling. I went to school locally. We - all of us --went to P.S. 43 on the corner when we were first, second and third grade because there was no gifted program for anything up until fourth grade. So we all went to P.S. 43 for first grade. They went to school, my brother and sister, went to P.S. 43 for second and third grade also. When I went to second and third grade, the projects were built and they decided they would divide our block in half and they would send me to the school in the newly built P.S. 154 in the projects. So here I am entering second grade, I& ; apos ; m terrified that I& ; apos ; m going to a brand new school. But as it turned out it was actually wonderful. And they put me in the gifted class, the top class, it wasn& ; apos ; t a gifted class. But in the " ; one" ; class because back then they na- they numbered things- 2-1 was smarter than 2-2 was smarter than 2-3, so I was in 2-1 and then later 3-1 and then I got sent to P.S. 31 which is also known as " ; The Castle on the Hill " ; on the concourse at 143rd Street? Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Something like that, and they just recently blew it up. Amy Starecheski: They sure did. Carol Zakaluk: They& ; apos ; re thinking of building a big development there and that& ; apos ; s going to be very different. But it was a wonderful, wonderful school. So my -my education was very local: P.S. 43, 154 and then William Lloyd Garrison school, P.S. 31. And then I went to a private school because now we& ; apos ; re talking about the 60s, the late 60s when all hell has broken loose around here. And the school I would have been slotted to go to, the public school, my mother having been a principal walked around and asked some questions and a girl had been raped by a cleaner in the school the year before. And my mother said, " ; My daughter is not going to that Junior High School, Clark, on Willis Avenue. She& ; apos ; s going to a private school." ; So they looked around and they found one that accepted scholarship students, you know that offered scholarships. So I went to Rhodes school which was then at 11 West 54th Street for three years. And that was kind of like my gateway out of the South Bronx during a rough time because it was in Midtown. It was across the street from MoMA, the garden of MoMA. We could look out of our Science room and down into the sculpture garden. There were incredible, wonderful things to do on the way to school and on the way to and from that were a very eye-opening to me, and it Manhattanized me, and my best friends were either the other scholarship students or one particular kid whose father was Vice President of NBC. And there were 11 Vice Presidents of NBC. There weren& ; apos ; t just- not to- not to get too excited about Mr. Knode but Caroline Knode was my very bosom buddy. And then plus another girl from the Bronx who was just like me who& ; apos ; s brother and sister were overachievers and whose parents were wonderful. She grew up on 160- 175th Street. So we were very much on the same wavelength and had a lot in common. And her last name was also Z. Rosemarie Zeccola. So we sat together in almost every class, and also at Rhodes one of the reasons they got scholarship students, they enticed them, was by advancing them in three subjects. So she and I and four other kids were in three different classes every term that we were there and everybody else was two years older. So that was a kind of isolating -a reason for the scholarship students who were poor and from outer boroughs to stick together. So if I hadn& ; apos ; t had Caroline Knode as my friend who lived in Sutton Place I would not have had a window into what it was like for people who had a lot of money but that has been kind of a very interesting aspect of my life- having known her and having had a chance to have sleepovers at Sutton Place and go to Broadway shows, courtesy of her father. I went to the Horse Show, The National Horse Show. He would treat us to going out to restaurants which is something that my family didn& ; apos ; t do very much unless it was a special occasion at the Felzmann' ; s. We didn& ; apos ; t go out to eat because my parents never had a lot of money. They had enough money to go to Southampton and rent a small house for a month or two every week-- every year. Later it was for the whole summer. When my mother started working again and she took the job market or we would crash at Uncle Charlie& ; apos ; s for a couple of weekends. And that was our summer vacation. So it wasn& ; apos ; t a lot of money. And the rest of the time we were, we tightened our belts a lot and we went to the library a lot. My father lived at the Mott Haven Library. He learned to read it-- for when he lived, when he grew up on Fifth Street, Fourth Street and Third Street. He learned to walk outside that church with the fence around on 11th Street. Amy Starecheski: St. Mark& ; apos ; s? Carol Zakaluk: St. Mark& ; apos ; s. Yes grandma Zakaluk used to sit in the churchyard because it had a fence and she didn& ; apos ; t have to pay that much attention to him he could wander around and not get killed. So that& ; apos ; s where he learned to walk, he taught himself to read at the Ottendorfer Library. He was really smart. And here we, we went at least twice a week to the Mott Haven Library, and he just loved to read and that was a wonderful aspect of my dad. So where am I? Amy Starecheski: Middle School. Carol Zakaluk: Back at me. I& ; apos ; m at middle school, I& ; apos ; m at Rhodes. Learned a lot at Rhodes, got advanced in three subjects and then I decided that I wanted to try to go to one of the public specialized high schools and I took the test for Bronx Science and Music & ; Art, which were the only two. I thought Stuyvesant was too far away. And I think maybe then it was all-boys, still. So anyway, I took the test for those two and they told me after the test that I had to check the box to select only one because back then - I think it was a lie. I think they lied to me and to this day I would like to find out whether that was in fact the case, and who told me that was that Music & ; Art. I took - I finished taking the test at Music & ; Art, and I went up to the head of the Music department because she was interviewing all the music students and she said, " ; I see you& ; apos ; ve taken the test for Bronx Science as well." ; And I said, " ; Yes, I& ; apos ; d like to be a veterinarian, possibly, someday. You know I& ; apos ; m not sure what I& ; apos ; d like to do, but it& ; apos ; s in my choices. I would like to have choices." ; And she said, " ; I& ; apos ; m very sorry, but you have to choose between the two schools. That doesn& ; apos ; t work like that anymore, you& ; apos ; re not-." ; And, and she erased the mark that I made that I had wanted the choice that the two schools and then I said, " ; Wait a minute I& ; apos ; m not sure that& ; apos ; s right. You know, I think you could be wrong about that." ; And she held my application up over the garbage can next to her desk and she said, " ; Oh really?" ; And I said, " ; OK. I& ; apos ; ll go to Music & ; Art. You know, if I get in I& ; apos ; ll go to Music & ; Art." ; And she said, " ; Well, that& ; apos ; s better." ; And she - as I wound up going to Music & ; Art, I learned that she was very tyrannical and very used to getting her own way and everyone was afraid of her. And the whole Music department, all the other teachers were afraid of her. Anyway that& ; apos ; s how I wound up going to Music & ; Art. So my brother went to Bronx Science, my sister went to Hunter and I went to Music & ; Art, which is now called LaGuardia High School. And I always liked music. My mother, absolutely was a music fanatic and they were very happy that I went there. So that& ; apos ; s how I stopped going to Rhodes and re-entered the public school system. So I went to Music & ; Art for three years, and then I graduated with three degrees: the Music degree, the regents diploma and the regular diploma and I went to SUNY Binghamton but I didn& ; apos ; t go to SUNY Binghamton first. I went to school in Vermont. I went to the University of Vermont for the first three years of school because I did--I wanted to be a veterinarian which is very silly that I did not push myself to go to Bronx Science and then become a veterinarian. I went to Music & ; Art and then I decided that I wanted to try to go to school to be a veterinarian. And I unfortunately applied to Radcliffe and I was about to get into Radcliffe and I went on the interview and the woman said to me, " ; I can get you into Radcliffe if you will say that you would like to go into Music or Art or English or Humanities because you went to Music and Art," ; and I and my stupidity and my truthfulness said, " ; No, no I think I& ; apos ; d like to be -I think I& ; apos ; d like to go into Science," ; and once again she did not do this but that& ; apos ; s what happened to my application. Amy Starecheski: She didn& ; apos ; t hold your application over the garbage bin, quite, but. Not literally. Carol Zakaluk: She did not hold my application over the garbage can. No. And she was an extremely nice woman and I should have listened to her because I would have liked Radcliffe, I think, a lot. I would have loved living in Cambridge. But I did go to the University of Vermont. It& ; apos ; s the only time in my life I& ; apos ; ve ever lived in a place that was that was surrounded by nature. I really enjoyed the time that I lived there. But it never felt like home, because I am a very city-oriented person and Burlington was just small and you know, Amy Starecheski, because you& ; apos ; re from Vermont. I know exactly, you know what I& ; apos ; m talking about. So I did love it there and I learned a lot. I decided very quickly, like after the first year, that the Sciences were really not for me. I was not flunking but I decided that I liked my English classes and my Humanities classes much more than the Science classes, and being that it had a medical school the medical, the Pre-Med and Pre-Vet, that classes were very cutthroat and people stole my frog in Biology, you know my lab sample, because it was good. And they did not share homework and it was difficult to keep up with the Science classes. That was another contributing feature to my becoming an English major. So after three years, I exhausted the best English professors. And I decided that I wanted to finish at SUNY Binghamton because for the same price I could go to a New York State school. And plus my best friend from Rhodes, Rosemary Zeccola, she went to Binghamton so I had friends, kind of an easy social network that I could walk into and that was, turned out to be, a fantastic place for me to go to school. I was really, really happy with Binghamton and felt totally at home with all the other students there because most of them, lots of them, are from New York City. And I just felt that we were on the same wavelength totally, and I had such a good time there. I learned the banjo. I was part of a Morris team, do you know what Morris dancing is? Amy Starecheski: No. Carol Zakaluk: It& ; apos ; s English Renaissance fertility dancing and it& ; apos ; s traditionally done by men. But back in the 70s I actually approached some women and said, " ; I& ; apos ; d like to start a women& ; apos ; s Morris team," ; and they said, " ; Well what do you know, we - we& ; apos ; re ahead of you. We will, also would love to have this. We& ; apos ; re starting one, we& ; apos ; re going to call it the Hearts of Oak Morris." ; And what you do is you dance in groups of six. It& ; apos ; s supposedly to bring up good crops at the crop season, you know in- in harvest time. You wear all white but you distinguish your- your town-- by color of hat and the color of ribbons you have on your outfit, and everyone wears bells. There& ; apos ; s lots of stick clashing there& ; apos ; s bell ringing there& ; apos ; s a handkerchief waving it& ; apos ; s fantastic. And then in Binghamton we would go on weekends either in the local towns and we would dance on the green and we passed the hat and all the money went to beer and we would go to, you know, pubs and we would then sing songs, also from that time period, we would sing early English songs. And so between dancing and singing it was very much like being back at Music and Art. Also I failed to mention an important thing about my mom. My mom was a really great swing dancer and she did that in her 20s and in her teens and we never saw any of that because she kind of gave up being a swing dancer by the time we came along. But, when we were in- when I was in grade school my mom had a - and she had not yet gone back to work, she had a Girl Scout troop, a senior Girl Scout troop, and they all met at our house. So these 16 or 17 teenage girls- and the reason she had the senior group- troop was because my sister was that age so she figured, " ; OK I& ; apos ; ll be a senior Girl Scout leader because Susan can be in the troop and we can learn to do things together and make ourselves better people." ; So my mom was constantly learning things from merit badges or making things so that there would be displays for the senior troop. And I learned a lot from that because I was there and I attended all the meetings. And I made the paper mâché Swan that was part of the Senior Round-Up for the whole city, and I did lots of projects with them. And one of the things that she did toward the end of that period was she decided to learn to be a square dance caller, which her, her best friend, Charlotte Horn, was already a square dance caller in Queens and making 250 dollars an hour doing this on cruise ships, at churches, for Girl Scouts, at swimming pools. But just wherever people wanted that kind of social activity. Charlotte Horn had this in-- and she had business cards. She was a lot like my mom. She was very boisterous and very loud and very good at commanding a whole roomful of people, and liked - liked helping and being with people. So my mom naturally saw Charlotte Horn as a mentor and began to learn how to be a square dance caller. So when I was in junior high school and high school, and maybe a little bit grade school I& ; apos ; m not sure, I would be the demonstration person with my dad. We would get paid twenty-five dollars or thirty dollars or something--it seemed like a lot-- to carry her record cases. She had hundreds of records eventually, and my father would carry her Califone, which was the kind of record player where you could change the speed so that depending on whether you were working with a room of little old ladies you could make it a little slower. A group of boisterous teenagers a little faster. So my father would carry the Califone, we would carry the records and she wound up doing lots of gigs throughout the city. I think the most people that she ever called for was 400 people in Cunningham Park for The City of New York. She did a summer series in the parks, and one day we went, I was there--we came up, up the hill, and Cunningham Park, to the place, the plaza where she was going to be square calling. And we saw the 400 people! And my mother, like stopped dead in her tracks and said, " ; I can& ; apos ; t do it, I can& ; apos ; t do it, there& ; apos ; s too many people! This is more people than I& ; apos ; ve ever called for in one place. What am I going to do?" ; And my father and I both said, " ; Don& ; apos ; t worry. You& ; apos ; ve got this, it& ; apos ; s exactly the same as for all the other gigs. It& ; apos ; s just more people and we& ; apos ; re going to go down there and help you." ; And we did it, and we were fine. And there was a P.A. system that worked, luckily. And we -we did fine. But anyway, that& ; apos ; s a little digression about my mom. She loved to dance and my daughter, who I haven& ; apos ; t even mentioned yet, haven& ; apos ; t mentioned my husband, haven& ; apos ; t mentioned my daughter! My daughter loves swing dancing, specifically, and she& ; apos ; s super, really awesome, really good at it. She does swing dancing, Balboa, Shag, and a whole bunch of variations of all of those. And there& ; apos ; s evidently a revival of it in most of the major cities. So, so now I& ; apos ; ve taken you through my college years. I got out of SUNY Binghamton with a degree in English Literature. And I thought, " ; Well, I think I would like to go to Library School." ; Of all the things out in front of me, the only thing I could think of that I - would be an acceptable career path to me at the time was Library School. So I was quite interested in doing that. But my parents told me that they wouldn' ; t help pay for any graduate school because they hadn& ; apos ; t helped Susan. And so it wouldn& ; apos ; t be fair if they helped me do that. So then I decided that the second best thing would be going across Canada, avoiding the whole question of going to work entirely, besides which my -as I mentioned earlier, my Aunt Mary had wound up marrying Uncle Dave and had moved to California where he was a chemist [editorial note: where he had a job related to the application of chemistry in industry] and so when, when I was two years old, Aunt Mary started having her own children and what do you know, she also had a two year-old at the same time as my mom had a two year-old. So why didn& ; apos ; t Clara come out with me and meet Mary and her two year-old Rebecca, now known as Becca? So my mom carted me off to San Francisco when I was two, and there were a lot of pictures of me and my mom in San Francisco when I was two. Of course I do not remember going. But I did not hear the end of it! My mom was so taken with the Bay Area and how wonderful it was that it was a very much a recurrent theme later on. And she bought some objects that she brought home. She brought -- she went to Muir Woods and she brought salt and pepper shakers made of red- and napkin rings of squirrels made of redwood, and a tray that looked like a Dutch shoe. Like her grandfather -her father brought over from Holland that used to be on the Dutch shelf here my whole life --but aren& ; apos ; t here now, they& ; apos ; re in a box upstairs --but that looked like a Dutch shoe to her, so she bought, bought that. So these things were around. And whenever " ; I left my heart in San Francisco" ; came on the radio which was on constantly to a standard station called WNEW in the kitchen, whenever that song came on, my mother would go off on a tangent or diatribe about how wonderful the Bay Area was and how I had to go there someday. So my idea was, I would go across Canada and I would go to San Francisco and as it happened a guy that I had really been in love with at SUNY Binghamton had graduated a lot earlier than I had, in fact had already had his graduate degree. He had moved to San Francisco and had written about how fantastic it was and all of his friends were invited to come and crash in his living room and get to know the Bay Area and hopefully move there, too. So I went across Canada, took me nine months. I wound up writing a book about it two years ago and NaNoWriMo--, you ever heard of NaNoWriMo? Amy Starecheski: No. Carol Zakaluk: NaNoWriMo is National Novel Writers Month. And it& ; apos ; s run through the public library and through many other agencies, also and I happened to hear about it because I was facilitating book discussion at the Mid-Manhattan Library right before they closed the branch at 40th Street temporarily for renovation. So I was teaching once a month. I was kind of facilitating a discussion of a contemporary novel and they said, " ; Would you like to try NaNoWriMo? All you do is you write 50,000 words in the course of November." ; It& ; apos ; s every November. And so I said, " ; I& ; apos ; m game." ; And I picked that subject because I thought it was something that other people might be interested in. Just also to digress for a minute, when I went across Canada I went with my friend from Binghamton, Renee Friedman. Renée Friedman was very active in the women& ; apos ; s movement at Binghamton. She was not a lesbian. Neither was I. But she had a network of lesbian people in Canada in Toronto and it was a place to start. So the very first place that we went to together was in Toronto, and we stayed with a group of lesbians and we helped them distribute literature and we went to their meetings and almost immediately they all assumed that Renée and I were a couple. We never touched each other we never let on, we never led them on to think that, but they couldn& ; apos ; t believe that we weren& ; apos ; t! They couldn& ; apos ; t believe that two women together such as us would not be lesbian, so they would always make sure we had -we were in the same bedroom. We told them we weren& ; apos ; t, but they didn& ; apos ; t believe us. I kid you not, they did not. So after we got started in Toronto they turned us on to so many other people because they were part of the Canadian Women& ; apos ; s Movement network. So they turned us on to people in Edmonton and Winnipeg and Saskatoon and all these other places so that we kind of couldn& ; apos ; t say no. We saved money by staying in these other people& ; apos ; s houses. So we stayed in basements, we stayed in couches and living rooms, we stayed on porches, we stayed only, in the nine months, three weeks in Youth Hostels and the rest of the time we were with people that we had either networked through Renée& ; apos ; s group or people that we met on the train that said, " ; Oh I have a friend or a cousin, or you& ; apos ; re going to Kamloops you& ; apos ; ve got to meet so-and-so, you know. She& ; apos ; ll find some place for you to stay." ; So that& ; apos ; s what we did. And so I thought that that would be a very interesting book for people, to see what it was like in the women& ; apos ; s movement at that time in Canada and that whole experience. And I had many adventures and they were all in my book. So I got to Canada I got, then, down to Vancouver. Finally I wanted to stay in Vancouver, I thought it was lovely. But everywhere that I went to ask for work-- they thought that I was an American! All I had to do was say, " ; Do you have any work?" ; And the very first thing they would say is, " ; You are an American, aren& ; apos ; t you?" ; I have no idea how they knew I was an American. Or maybe that& ; apos ; s such a common thing, for Americans to go to Vancouver and ask for work that they just - I have no idea what I was wearing that let them know, or something about my accent. Maybe they- I think I& ; apos ; m more New York now, that you can hear New York in my accent now a lot more than at that time. I think the past 33 years of living here in New York after coming back from my time in California, I think that really made me into more of sounding like a New Yorker. But back then I really didn& ; apos ; t so much. Anyway, didn& ; apos ; t work for me to stay in Vancouver so I went through Seattle, I visited my brother who was living in Colorado Springs at the time for a couple of weeks and then I went to San Francisco where I lived a total of five years. And I absolutely loved San Francisco. I thought my mom was completely right. It was absolutely the right place for me. When I left the Bronx and when I got out of college I never wanted -I never thought of myself as really liking the Bronx and wanting to come back to the Bronx. In fact I wanted- My goal was to maybe work in publishing and live in Manhattan or Brooklyn. Any place but the Bronx. I really did not like the Bronx and then I changed later when I left San Francisco and I decided to come back to the Bronx, I came back with a sense that I would try to make it better. And that -came back happy to come back to my family, to a place where people understood my educational background. The whole time that I lived in San Francisco and I said, " ; Well, I went to SUNY Binghamton," ; nobody knew that that was one of the top state schools. They shrugged it off. " ; Oh you& ; apos ; re not from California--you& ; apos ; re not from here." ; And so I didn& ; apos ; t have -there was nobody that I could name drop New York things with quite so much. Certainly in my work situations in San Francisco, I was low man on the totem pole in most of the jobs that I had, and I had very interesting jobs when I was there. My first job in San Francisco--when I got there I stayed in Jeff Perrone' ; s living room for the first month, and just about then I ran out of money so I needed to get a job so that I could get out of Jeff Perrone' ; s living room-- and I took the first job that I was offered, which was bookkeeper and assistant in a waterbed Factory Showroom. Amy Starecheski is laughing, as she should be! Amy Starecheski: That is so 1970 - what is it? 1977 or something at that point, & ; apos ; 76. Carol Zakaluk: That is exactly, exactly right. That is where I am. I think it was & ; apos ; 78 when I got there. And Alexis Makar who owned Oysterbed Waterbeds, was from Astoria, Queens and she was Ukrainian and she heard those two facts about me and wanted to give me a chance and liked me and it was only 10 blocks from Jeff Perrone& ; apos ; s living room. And so I began working with her, and that is the only experience that I& ; apos ; ve ever had working in a business situation. And it taught me so much about the way that all businesses run. That I, in retrospect, really learned a tremendous amount from that one year and very, very quickly--because I was her direct assistant and we were - what she did was she showed me a little office and it was knee high with paper. I mean like water in a sewer. There were papers: invoices and bills and materials on all of the different things that she sold in the store that she - basically said, " ; Organize it." ; And so I made a pile of the pink ones and a pile of the yellow ones and she would come in for ten minutes at a time during the day when she wasn& ; apos ; t selling on the sales floor and she would say, " ; This is what an invoice is. It has two parts, now put them by date." ; And then she would be gone again. So very quickly I learned how to run the whole business. And I got to be, sort of, her second in command so she and her boyfriend could go to Mexico for two weeks and leave me in charge of the five guys in the shop who were making platform beds and simple dressers and staining them in- I don& ; apos ; t know how many feet it was. It was a whole half of a city block. It was very, very big. We had a showroom that had at least, like 25 living rooms worth of stuff in it! You would walk in and you would see, you know, a queen size or king size bed and all the furniture to go with it, ensembles sort of. And you could walk around and see 25 of those and then you would go up to the salesperson and say, " ; I& ; apos ; ll take the California King in the Ticonderoga brand" ; and whatever, and then you& ; apos ; d have sample water mattresses also. So there would be people coming in and lying on all of these things and sometimes it would be a dirty old man who would say, " ; Honey can you lie down with me? I just want to see how this works with two people." ; And you would kindly say, " ; No sir, I& ; apos ; m not allowed to do that." ; But anyway, that was my first job and then I decided that I wanted to do something in publishing before -I didn& ; apos ; t want to get stuck in business. So I went- I took a job with Friends of the Earth Books it was Friends of the Earth headquarters, the environmental organization, but they had one wing that was their Book Department. So I was a Proofreader and I was hoping to be Editorial Assistant. I was kind of -that& ; apos ; s why I was there, I was waiting for her to leave so that I could get that chair. But I never wound up doing that. I did also sub in the Graphic Design Department and I found research materials for books that they were writing as Friends of the Earth. So that was a very interesting and good job in which I felt I was helping the world and met a lot of really terrific people. But it did not pay me a lot of money. So once again I switched and I became a- the proofreader, the only proofreader for a publication that& ; apos ; s a little bit like The Village Voice for San Francisco, called the San Francisco Bay Guardian. So then I was the Proofreader for the San Francisco Bay Guardian and I had that job for a while. I was in line to be the " ; Duffie," ; which is the publishing slang for Production Manager. So I was, they offered me, the job of Duffie when I discovered that I was pregnant and I will talk about David Wills now, my daughter& ; apos ; s father. He was sort of 15 years older. Does that sound familiar, in my family? He was English. He is English. He was very, very handsome. And he worked for CoEvolution Quarterly, which has a lot of cachet in the Bay Area, and they were busy coming out with the next Whole Earth Catalog, which if you& ; apos ; re my age, the Whole Earth Catalog was a very big deal. You& ; apos ; re familiar with what that is-- The Next Whole Earth Catalog? There were a series of them, and David and another woman, Kathleen, were the Co-Art Directors for CoEvolution Quarterly at Gate 5 Road in Sausalito. So David is kind of an art star who lives in the Haight-Ashbury. By now, after my one month on Jeff Perrone' ; s couch, I found a place in the Haight-Ashbury which- looked at three different apartments. One was in -on Grant Avenue area in North Beach-- really like that place. But the place that had the friendliest, most welcoming housemates and was also the cheapest was in the Haight-Ashbury. So I said " ; Yes" ; to that one. It also was the only place I could find that had other people who did not want to have communal cooking. And I, like my mother, who hadn& ; apos ; t made a turkey until she was 50--I have never been a jolly, happy cook. I have never really wanted to tie myself down to the kind of communal living where I had to produce a meal for a group of people every Wednesday, or whatever. So I said yes to living with 3 men in this apartment at- in the Haight and they were very nice guys. Very, very nice people. And during the time that I lived with them we had a very good time just being friendly and happy-go-lucky and telling jokes and taking care of one another, somewhat. You know, so I lived at 1652 Haight Street and David Wills lived two blocks away on Ashbury near Haight at 528, no sorry, 524 Ashbury. And David and I -I think started going out pretty much as soon as I got to San Francisco, like within a month or so I met him on a bus. We got on a crowded bus in downtown San Francisco. I had my 35 millimeter camera with me over my arm and I had just picked up some contact sheets for my latest shots at a place that happens to be where he got all his contact sheets. So we& ; apos ; re in this crowded bus and he& ; apos ; s standing right next to me and he says I have an envelope from this place that he goes to all the time and he sees I have a camera and he& ; apos ; s an artist. So he starts talking to me about photography, etc. and I hear he& ; apos ; s from England and I am not immediately smitten but he was very charming. And then we said goodbye. And what do you know, we got off at the same stop. So he said, " ; OK you& ; apos ; re my neighbor, let& ; apos ; s go have a coffee." ; So after that we started seeing each other very regularly. But David was of the free love variety, shall we say, and his - one of his previous lovers had been Margot St. James who& ; apos ; s famous in the Bay Area as being the woman who later started COYOTE, Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics, a prostitutes rights group. So I think both on his own, and because he had lived with her, his thinking was evolved, shall we say. And so during the time that I was involved with him he had at least two other lovers at the same time. And one of them was a younger person, five years younger than me, who actually lived in his apartment. But I did not know that when I first met him. We went to his apartment and he said, " ; These are my housemates. Here& ; apos ; s Cathy, my housemate," ; and I just assumed like my living situation and most young people in San Francisco, she had her room and he had his room and they shared the apartment but no, he and she actually shared a room and they were a couple but they had an open relationship. So I fell in love with him before I understood what was going on that way, and then it was very hard to fall out of love with him. So during the time that I knew him I made a big effort to bend my thinking to his way. But really, I discovered that I was unbendable, that I was the child of Steve and Clara, who never slept with anyone else in their lives and who were totally devoted to each other and very happy. And there was nothing I could do about it. That& ; apos ; s the way that I was made. And so, at the end of five years, actually at the end of two years, I became pregnant and I decided that I really wanted to keep the child. There was a period of time when you know we discussed it and I think David was hoping in some ways that I would lean toward having an abortion because his other girlfriend, Cathy, had already had several abortions, and it just wasn& ; apos ; t the right thing for me. I was five years older. I was almost 25. I was very settled. I had a college degree. I had been to Europe. And I had had real jobs. I just wanted to have a child. And I realized that I might be a sole parent, what do they call that? Amy Starecheski: Single parent? Carol Zakaluk: Thank you. A single parent. I might very well be a single parent but that didn& ; apos ; t matter to me. I was strong enough to do it and I decided I wanted to have her. So I did have her. And I continued to live with my three male roommates. And they thought it was wonderful. They thought she was great. Occasionally they would watch her for half an hour or an hour while I had to go do something and they were very responsible and we were very grounding for them, too, because they were single guys. But at the end of that first year a place came up next door to David in an apartment with a couple who had a same-age child who was my daughter& ; apos ; s best friend, and we used to share babysitting. We had kind of a baby sitting co-op where three mothers had three same-age children, one boy and two girls -- actually sorry-- there were four mothers. Oh my goodness I almost forgot there were two boys and two girls and we had an arrangement where we each had all of them six hours a week so that each mother had six hours on two days, two days three hours each where they could, you know, run wild without children which was wonderful and I thought that that was very Bay Area, really swell, and the other mothers were top notch and really smart, the other kids were cool. So I moved in with this other couple and their same-age child. But unfortunately, once Annabelle, and actually my daughter& ; apos ; s name is Ann, she was born Ann, and only recently, decided in the past five years, she decided she wanted to -she was no longer Ann, she was more than just Ann, she wanted to change her name to Annabelle. So you will hear me call her both Ann and Annabelle. So anyway, there I am, living now next door to David with this couple. And unfortunately once we moved in the kids stopped being best friends because Nina, the other little girl, it was too close for comfort for her. And there was nothing we could do about it because I had already moved out of the other apartment, I had already signed a lease, and there I was. So we did our best. We did share babysitting. We did share some cooking once in a while. And for the most part they stayed at their end of the apartment and we stayed at our end of the apartment unless we were sharing childcare and for the most part we were absolutely fine. But at the end of one year it became apparent that David really was put-upon that I moved closer to him. That wasn& ; apos ; t good for him and he felt that I was too close and watching, watching his every move sort of is what he felt. So he decided that he would withdraw from me somewhat and I decided that I would move, and move back east, and move into the apartment in my grandmother& ; apos ; s house that was available, and pay rent to her which would help her because she was about 84, 85, 86 and in need of some additional income, and have built-in babysitting so that I could maybe go out and meet somebody else and have a different environment because I was very, very unhappy, as one might imagine. I just decided I was done with trying to have any kind of open relationship. I was done trying to be tolerant of David having other girlfriends and it was such an inadequate, small amount that I was getting from him both personally. And yes, he did take care of Annabelle somewhat, sometimes and, and he loved her very much and I had no- no qualms about his parenting whatsoever. I decided it was better for me to come back and be in the bosom of my family, so to speak, in a place where I felt at home and put some distance between me and the West coast. So that& ; apos ; s how I wound up coming back to the Bronx and that was- Annabelle was born July 5th, 1981 and I moved back when she was just shy of three years old, two years and eight months. I moved back to the top floor of 422 and I just took my time, I took at least six months. I made it- I painted it. I moved things from my room next door which was pretty much the way that I left it, into this house, helped my grandmother out. I raised Ann, we had two friends who had children the same age here in the West Village. They& ; apos ; re still here as a matter of fact. And so I used to regularly meet them in the West Village at the Leroy Street Library which if you don& ; apos ; t know the Leroy Street Library they have a pre- nursery, a special nursery upstairs and there& ; apos ; s a lot of literature about that age group and it was a wonderful place to go in the winter. The two places that we used to regularly go were the basement of the World Trade Center where the kids could run and run and run and run in the winter for blocks and blocks, basically without impediment, and be fairly warm, and the Leroy Street Library upstairs nursery which had all kinds of play structures, an incredible number of books, and we could chat. It was just a really perfect place for young mothers to be together and fathers too. And then I decided that it was time to get out and start dating people again. So I looked at the Village Voice advertisements in the back and I picked three ads and I answered three different ads and each date was funnier than the next. One guy showed up in a plaid suit and I looked in the window at Elaine& ; apos ; s at him and I turned around to go. And he came out and found me in his plaid suit. And we, we went in and ordered one drink and the first few sentences he said that he had been in deep, Freudian therapy for years! And I had one drink with him and said, " ; Thank you very much. Very, very nice meeting you. But I& ; apos ; m sure this is not going to work out." ; A second guy was a extremely rich fellow who had multiple degrees and had owned a plane and many special antique cars and had worked as the person who was the sidekick of Princes and Dukes, he was English also, like David. And I thought, " ; Oh, an Englishman who has multiple degrees, I& ; apos ; m interested in meeting him," ; but when he came to the front door to pick me up I thought he was standing on the stoop, on the main part of the stoop and that he was very, very short, let& ; apos ; s say, he, was very short and also he was just not -his- his experience level, he was very much full of himself and it just wasn& ; apos ; t appropriate for me either. The third person turned out to be a very nice guy and we actually went out twice just as friends and we both felt the same way about each other, we liked each other very much. But nothing romantic. But I was in that head of meeting new people and being willing to talk to strangers when I was planning on going out with a bunch of girls dancing, and it was my turn to pick the place, pick the time, pick the date and then call everyone. So we were all supposed to go dancing at Danceteria or Acme or someplace like that, some area, some disco. We were all going to go together and it actually wasn& ; apos ; t either one of those. It was the Roxie. No - what& ; apos ; s the name of the place on 11th Street? Webster Hall. Webster Hall! So we were supposed to go out dancing at a place that had a band. And so we got to be six o& ; apos ; clock on Friday and I was supposed to call them all and I called my friend Pat Flanagan and they say, " ; Pat, I-I can& ; apos ; t tell you because I can& ; apos ; t get through to the nightclub to find out the schedule when the band is going to be on." ; And she said, " ; What do you know, I just met this fellow around the clock-- around the corner from where I live. And it seemed like he might be your type. He wasn& ; apos ; t my type. He wore a natty suit from a vintage place and he was a little scruffy and you know I like guys with money. And guys who are very nicely dressed, business look who, you know, do very well for themselves--but this might be your type, Carol. So he works for the band that& ; apos ; s playing. And I just met him last night. I have his business card. Hold on. Why don& ; apos ; t you call him directly?" ; So I called John Knoerr and I asked him what time Mink DeVille was going on at Webster Hall and he said, " ; Oh well, sorry to tell you but we played last night and we& ; apos ; re not playing tonight! There& ; apos ; s no band tonight, but you just moved here from California and I just moved here from the Bay Area. So why don& ; apos ; t we have a drink? So I said, " ; I& ; apos ; d be very happy to meet you, to have a drink with you." ; Being that I was on a role from my Village Voice advertisements, " ; --but I want to tell you before I come down to Tribeca to meet you that I have a daughter who is three years old. And we come as a package. So if you& ; apos ; re thinking of this as a possible date scenario I just wanted to throw that out there so that you could -if you don& ; apos ; t want to meet me I& ; apos ; ll be completely understanding of the situation." ; And, there& ; apos ; s like, I don& ; apos ; t know, five seconds, and he says, " ; That doesn& ; apos ; t matter to me. I& ; apos ; d be happy to meet you. You know, please come down," ; and I said, " ; I like to travel. I & ; apos ; m happy to come down and meet you in your neighborhood." ; And then he said, " ; Like to travel. Good, because I& ; apos ; m a, you know, freelance sound engineer and I travel for a living and that& ; apos ; s what I do." ; And that was the- I met him on April Fool& ; apos ; s Day, 1984 and we have been together for 33 years and we& ; apos ; re now married. We got married after 20 years of being together and our original plan was that I was going to move to Tribeca and live in his loft but the loft got sold very shortly after we became an item so to speak. And so that was no longer an option. And so I invited him to move in here. So that& ; apos ; s how John and Carol wound up cohabiting in 422. And I see it is now much past two and a half hours, if you would like to stop, we can. Amy Starecheski: I have so many questions. But it probably -no, I know you& ; apos ; re part-- you& ; apos ; re probably tired of talking. Let me just think if there& ; apos ; s anything quick that I want to make sure to clarify, just these are just like details. Your parents, when they moved to Southampton, they get to the house next door. Did anyone live there still? Carol Zakaluk: No, but they -all their stuff was there. Amy Starecheski: OK. So that& ; apos ; s, yeah, ok. Carol Zakaluk: My job. When they moved they hired me at five dollars an hour to clean their stuff out which was a very slow process because I had a child to raise and because she was in gifted programs necessitating me taking her sometimes an hour for a first, second third and fourth grade, her gifted program was by the Zoo. So I took her an hour, dropped her off, came home, an hour, picked her up. And so I was on the bus for four hours every day and I was editing freelance on the bus while I was riding. But it was a lot, because I really believe in gifted education and that& ; apos ; s what we did back then. It was different than it is now. And you know she was IQ tested and I had to justify, you know, taking her outside the neighborhood because she was the only white kid. And so that was considered justification for her to be in a classroom where one third of the kids -the other kids were white, so, anyway. Amy Starecheski: Was that explicitly something that you talked about with the Board of Ed or the Department of Ed about -that she would be the only white kid? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah that was one of the justifications for her, to be -one of the acceptable justifications for moving her, finding places to put her other than in this neighborhood. Amy Starecheski: I mean there& ; apos ; s so much that we should talk about what we probably should pause there and then pick it back up in another session and go back and fill in a million things. But that was a fantastic, thorough introduction. Carol Zakaluk: I& ; apos ; m sorry- I& ; apos ; m sorry it was so digressive. I feel like I was all over the place. Amy Starecheski: No. It was extraordinarily linear actually. I mean I think I don& ; apos ; t think one could really tell life story and tell a history in a much more linear way. You know you had side branches but there was quite a structure to the whole thing. So-. Carol Zakaluk: You followed it pretty well? Amy Starecheski: I followed it, yeah. I would have interrupted you if I wasn& ; apos ; t following anything. Carol Zakaluk: OK good. Well I didn& ; apos ; t get to so many things that I would love to talk about more. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: They& ; apos ; re really digressive to Mott Haven. Amy Starecheski: Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: They& ; apos ; re germane to me. Amy Starecheski: Right. Carol Zakaluk: But at some point I have to start talking about what happened out there. Amy Starecheski: I know, I know. Is there anything that you want to add before we close or anything you want to just like make a note of now on the tape to come back to? Carol Zakaluk: I guess I feel the need to explain my relationship with John a little bit and what it was like living with somebody who went on the road and how my life was changed by going on the road with him because our deal was if he was gone for a month I had to join him for a week. And none of the bands he ever worked with, which were very professional, top notch, Violent Femmes, Midnight Oil, he opened up Tutone- That is a song called " ; 8 6 7 5 3 0 9 Jenny" ; when - he worked for real bands, and they were on tours with Tom Petty and Bob Seger, and real people liked me and they didn& ; apos ; t mind. And there were no other women on the road who were girlfriends or wives who were allowed to do that. But I was allowed to do that. So I think that I was very lucky. And I think I was very- a team player and I could be one of the boys when I was traveling around in the motor home or the bus or whenever it was they had, the plane. Amy Starecheski: Did you bring Annabelle? Carol Zakaluk: No. But what was joyous was that Annabelle, Ann at the time, was the only grandchild and her -her grandparents lived next door and they loved her and doted on her. At first it was some of the final years that my mom was working. So this only would happen if it was summertime or -or they were retired. So we made it work. Amy Starecheski: What year was it when your parents moved to Southampton, about? Carol Zakaluk: I& ; apos ; ll find that out, but in a way it was not a- Amy Starecheski: Yeah, it was a gradual- Carol Zakaluk: Charlie was dying and for that period. They were going out there a lot. In his final years, he lived to 96. Amy Starecheski: OK. Carol Zakaluk: But I& ; apos ; ll find out what year-. Amy Starecheski: So when you move back your parents were still next door? Carol Zakaluk: Yeah. Oh for years and years. Many years. Amy Starecheski: Ok. Ok. Carol Zakaluk: And then that period of cleaning out their house took over a year because I was only doing it a couple of hours a day. It wasn& ; apos ; t all day long, so. Amy Starecheski: So much. All right. Well thank you so much. When we come back I - I will probably fill in more Mott Haven details and I& ; apos ; m want to just pick the story up where it -where we ended too, but-. Carol Zakaluk: Yes. Amy Starecheski: Thank you so much and thank you for taking the time to pull out all these beautiful photographs. It& ; apos ; s fantastic to get to see them. Carol Zakaluk: Well it helps to figure out who& ; apos ; s who, I think. Amy Starecheski: Yes. Yes. Carol Zakaluk: And you know to have a sense, and I will bombard you with five minutes of pictures from the 1940s - Please. Yes. Amy Starecheski: And show the backyard the street. There& ; apos ; s this picture in between my front two doors that shows the corner before the projects came down and when the third avenue well was still up. So and that& ; apos ; s what I see in my mind& ; apos ; s eye when I walk to the corner. If I close my eyes I see that. To this day. Yeah. Carol Zakaluk: Before the projects, so. Amy Starecheski: Oh that& ; apos ; s so neat. And what we should do is, you know, if you want to we can scan these and take the digital photos you have and package them and put them with the audio if it gets archived - Carol Zakaluk: Yeah, sure. Amy Starecheski: So that anyone who wants to look at them while they& ; apos ; re listening or reading can, can make the connections too. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah I guess captions, I guess you can caption them or something. Amy Starecheski: Right. Yeah you probably want to caption them. Yes. Right. Carol Zakaluk: Just make it clear what is-. Amy Starecheski: Alright thank you I& ; apos ; ll stop it there. Carol Zakaluk: Yeah, OK. audio 0 motthavenhistory.org/ohms/render.php?cachefile=Zakaluk_20171118_session1.xml Zakaluk_20171118_session1.xml
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Carol Zakaluk Oral History Interview | Session 1
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2017-11-18
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audio
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A third-generation Bronxite born in 1955, Carol Zakaluk has lived most of her life in Mott Haven. In 1921, her German/Dutch maternal grandparents bought a row house in the now-landmarked Bertine Block Historic District. Eventually, all four of Carol’s grandparents settled near one another in the neighborhood. The building has stayed in the family for 97 years, has been home to Carol and her husband for more than three decades, and is where Carol raised her daughter. Carol remembers the rise of the Mitchell Housing Projects vividly, as well as the difficult ‘70s and early ‘80s—and also many grassroots efforts to revive the neighborhood. Her mom, dad, and sister worked locally, teaching public school—and Carol, too, had several jobs in the neighborhood. She was an ESL teaching aide, then a grant and shop assistant for a sculptor, a co-director for the Haven Arts Gallery, and currently is a building manager for two small brownstones.
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This is the first of a 3-part interview. Carol Zakaluk, 62 years old at the time of the interview, is a third-generation native New Yorker whose connection to the Mott Haven neighborhood is tied to the properties she inherited from her grandparents and her own childhood. Zakaluk discusses her maternal and paternal grandparents’ immigration stories and the lives of her extended family members. She attended a mix of private and public schools as a child before going to a SUNY school for her college education. After college, she moved temporarily to California, where she worked a number of jobs that helped her to establish her professional career and gave birth to her daughter, before moving back to New York City to raise her daughter as a single parent before eventually getting married.